Issues with pH

[TrueTricia]

Good morning everyone

 

I am having trouble keeping my pH up.  I've not had this issue before, or at least not to this degree.  I'd appreciate any advice.  I think part of it is living in a smaller DC apartment vice the larger spaces I previously lived in, plus not having a skimmer.  My cat eats live plants (and then pukes them up all over the place...darwinism at its finest), so I haven't added live plants.

 

66g tank with 20g sump.  Klir filter, macroalgae reactor, biomedia.  Dosing 2 part, and have kalkwasser in the ATO (a previous suggestion).  There is NO skimmer.  My rocks are 2+ years old, and I have no nutrient issues.  pH will range but does not go above 8.1 and can get below 7.8 at night.  I had a drop down to 7.6 a few weeks ago and lost several corals.

 

In order to keep my pH high, I've had to maintain a 10+ dkh, but even that isn't working as well anymore.  I'm considering trying CO2 scrubbing media and using an air pump on a timer to pump scrubbed air into the water during the night (since I can't connect it to a skimmer).  

 

Any ideas?  Thank you!

[jhOU]

How’s your surface agitation and gas exchange? Without i skimmer this may be your issue. If your demand allows, just use more kalk instead of 2 part. The co2 scrubber with an air stone won’t be very effective, so I wouldn’t recommend the expense. Also, if measuring with ph probe... calibrate! might not even have a problem


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[TrueTricia]

5 minutes ago, jhOU said:

How’s your surface agitation and gas exchange? Without i skimmer this may be your issue. If your demand allows, just use more kalk instead of 2 part. The co2 scrubber with an air stone won’t be very effective, so I wouldn’t recommend the expense. Also, if measuring with ph probe... calibrate! might not even have a problem


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The DT surface water gets agitated by the powerhead, but not nearly as much as the skimmer would provide.  I am mostly using kalk right now rather than 2 part for just that reason.  Still doesn't seem to be enough.  

 

Suggestions for gas exchange then?

[jhOU]

As an experiment point a power head towards the surface to really agitate the surface, or add an air stone for a while and see if ph goes up. I’d also recommend dosing kalk via dosing pump evenly throughout the day.


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[SkiCurtis]

good advise! if you are dosing kalk, the way to do it is with a  kalk reactor that is hooked to your auto top off water.

This in my option is one of the best things you can do for a mixed reef tank not completely jacked up with tons of corals. then when needed dose 2 part(really 3 part),

[TrueTricia]

1 hour ago, jhOU said:

As an experiment point a power head towards the surface to really agitate the surface, or add an air stone for a while and see if ph goes up. I’d also recommend dosing kalk via dosing pump evenly throughout the day.


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31 minutes ago, SkiCurtis said:

good advise! if you are dosing kalk, the way to do it is with a  kalk reactor that is hooked to your auto top off water.

This in my option is one of the best things you can do for a mixed reef tank not completely jacked up with tons of corals. then when needed dose 2 part(really 3 part),

 

I'll try the agitation and air stone.  Easy enough.  I'll try these two.  While it's a great suggestion, I don't want to buy a kalk reactor... I have a ton of extra equipment currently sitting in storage and can't justify a new piece.  This tank is a short-term tank, and in the long-term, will get upgraded sometime in 2021 when we buy a house, and my sump will have room for the skimmer again (downgraded from a 120g DT/40g S when I moved from Norfolk to DC, so lots of equipment, but too big for the space I've got right now).  

 

THANK YOU

[khalid]

good advise! if you are dosing kalk, the way to do it is with a  kalk reactor that is hooked to your auto top off water.
This in my option is one of the best things you can do for a mixed reef tank not completely jacked up with tons of corals. then when needed dose 2 part(really 3 part),

Hey Curtis, quick question. Is it not a good idea to idea to dose kalk in a loaded reef or am I not reading you post correctly?


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[DCReefer1964]

Contact @telegraham . I will never mix Kalk in my ATO again. Had an over dose that wiped out my entire reef. Just my .02

[SkiCurtis]

No I never mix my Kalk in my auto top off. My auto top off is controlled by a Spectra pure liter meter III  that will dose the allotted amount, spaced out evenly throughout the 24 hour  period.  Therefore it will never overdose. But for other systems that are not using a litre meter III.  For any freshwater top off you'd have to get a very, very reliable auto top off so it would never get stuck and overdose fresh water or Kalk water for that matter.

JMO

10 hours ago, DCReefer1964 said:

Contact @telegraham . I will never mix Kalk in my ATO again. Had an over dose that wiped out my entire reef. Just my .02

 

12 hours ago, truetricia2 said:

 

 

I'll try the agitation and air stone.  Easy enough.  I'll try these two.  While it's a great suggestion, I don't want to buy a kalk reactor... I have a ton of extra equipment currently sitting in storage and can't justify a new piece.  This tank is a short-term tank, and in the long-term, will get upgraded sometime in 2021 when we buy a house, and my sump will have room for the skimmer again (downgraded from a 120g DT/40g S when I moved from Norfolk to DC, so lots of equipment, but too big for the space I've got right now).  

 

THANK YOU

OK no problem starting the madness all over.

[lowsingle]

The most likely cause is high levels of CO2 in your house (I have the same problem in my tank as do most other reefers). The easiest solution is open a window, though that sucks in the winter or summer.  Run a test and leave the window open preferably one near the tank.  If the ph goes up that is likely your problem.  I run a CO2 scrubber on my skimmer but it is costly.  Your refuge should help a little.  For reference, my CO2 scrubber increases my PH from 7.8 to 8.0.  In the fall and spring I can get up to 8.1 and sometimes 8.2 when my windows are open.  Also, make sure the Alk dosing you use raises your ph rather than keep it steady.  BRS has a nice video on dealing with low ph  you can 

 

Darren

 

[therootcause]

...or add an air stone to the sump?


I also don’t use kalk in ATO.

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[lowsingle]

Adding an air stone to the sump won’t fix anything if the ambient air that it pulls from has high CO2.  If you pulled air from outside that will help as outside air usually has significantly lower CO2 levels....that is what reefers do if they don’t want to use a CO2 scrubber.  Also, you can just live with lower ph, which primarily slows the growth of calcerous corals.

 

 

 

Here is a video that may help......

 

Darren

 

[TrueTricia]

On 12/12/2020 at 5:03 PM, lowsingle said:

Adding an air stone to the sump won’t fix anything if the ambient air that it pulls from has high CO2.  If you pulled air from outside that will help as outside air usually has significantly lower CO2 levels....that is what reefers do if they don’t want to use a CO2 scrubber.  Also, you can just live with lower ph, which primarily slows the growth of calcerous corals.

 

 

 

Here is a video that may help......

 

Darren

 

 

On 12/12/2020 at 3:01 PM, therootcause said:

...or add an air stone to the sump?


I also don’t use kalk in ATO.

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On 12/12/2020 at 2:02 PM, lowsingle said:

The most likely cause is high levels of CO2 in your house (I have the same problem in my tank as do most other reefers). The easiest solution is open a window, though that sucks in the winter or summer.  Run a test and leave the window open preferably one near the tank.  If the ph goes up that is likely your problem.  I run a CO2 scrubber on my skimmer but it is costly.  Your refuge should help a little.  For reference, my CO2 scrubber increases my PH from 7.8 to 8.0.  In the fall and spring I can get up to 8.1 and sometimes 8.2 when my windows are open.  Also, make sure the Alk dosing you use raises your ph rather than keep it steady.  BRS has a nice video on dealing with low ph  you can 

 

Darren

 

 

Yeah, I've watched that video and am still struggling.  I've got a fuge, which helps.  I live in an apartment building, and there's no way to run lines to the outside without doing permanent damage to the apartment.  I do leave windows, etc. open when possible, but again, weather, so that's not a long-term solution.  I'm using alk supplement that raises pH per BRS.  I've tried all the "easy" solutions as I'm not a NOOB, but am struggling regardless (and hence why I'm asking).  

 

The pH dropped to 7.6 one night, and several of my corals melted.  I woke up and my montis were just dying.  Some other SPS later that day.  Other corals took weeks to come back to looking normal.  So I can't just leave the problem alone.

 

I have tried increasing the surface agitation, and that has seemed to help.  It could be that there's not enough air exchange happening, and less that the air in the house has too much CO2.  This could be exasperated by the fact that I'm not running a skimmer, and thus am losing the air exchange aspect.  It would also explain why I'm having that issue in this tank vice my old tank.  I'm also going to try the airstone, but am trying one thing at a time to track success.  

 

Thanks all

[arking_mark]

You can test if it is a gas exchange issue vs high CO2 in your abode. Take a cup of tank water and an air stone and aerate the water outside for an hour, then do the same thing inside. You now have three measurements tank PH, outside aerated, and inside aerated. 

 

1. If outside aerated tanjkwater has higher PH then inside aerated tank water you have a CO2 problem.

 

2. If inside aerated tank water has higher PH then your tank, you have a gas exchange issue.

 

Note that both of these can be true. If 2 is true, you can increase PH by increasing gas exchange in your tank via surface agitation or a skimmer.

 

You mentioned keeping your dKH at 10. I'm assuming this is maintained through 2-part and kalk dosing. How are you ensuring this is steadily maintained? A large increase or decrease in dKH can also result in coral shock and death. A normal PH swing in a 24hr period can be .3 without effecting coral. A dKH swing of .5 to 1 in 24hrs is probably also acceptable for a reef tank. However, quick swings in these parameters can cause issues.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by arking_mark
Syntax

[Yachaq]

A source of information that has helped me a lot in the past is this one: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/

[lowsingle]

1 hour ago, Yachaq said:

A source of information that has helped me a lot in the past is this one: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/

Nice write up, thanks for sharing 

[ReefAddict]

I also struggle with PH and recently purchased a CO2 Scrubber.  Can you tell when I put fresh media in? The test that worked for me was while I was on vacation my PH never went below 8.1 with everyone home only goes over 8 a few hours a day when the lights are on.  Now with the scrubber always above 8.

[khalid]

I also struggle with PH and recently purchased a CO2 Scrubber.  Can you tell when I put fresh media in? The test that worked for me was while I was on vacation my PH never went below 8.1 with everyone home only goes over 8 a few hours a day when the lights are on.  Now with the scrubber always above 8.

The media you have should be color changing and I used to change it when most of the media was no longer white.


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[Origami]

Tricia, first off you need to test whether or not your indoor air is the culprit here. Here's how. You'll need an air pump and an air stone for this. I assume that you've already got a calibrated pH meter.

First, take a 1 - 2 cup sample of your tank water. Next, using a calibrated pH meter, get a reading on that sample. Now, aerate the sample for 5 to 10 minutes in fresh air. Measure the pH again after. If the pH rises in the sample, you have high indoor CO2 depressing your pH.

That in itself need not be a concern. (I've never worried about chasing pH.) But, if you're really concerned and you're already dosing two-part, try switching from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate. Sodium carbonate will absorb CO2, raising tank pH.

Other methods, including using borate-based pH buffers are not recommended.

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