Sump Design

[EricBrian]

Ok, Jean-Marie told me to make sure I run my designs by the group for input!

 

Here is the sump I plan on making. Anybody see any problems? Concerns?

 

 

Thanks.

 

Jean-Marie, thanks also for offering your house as a place to make all of this stuff!

 

Eric

[JMsAquarium]

My pleasure Eric,

 

The diagram looks good. Just make sure that you provide enough volume in your sump to accomodate the extra water when your power goes off.

Also, testing for micro bubbles is a good idea, which relates to your baffles positionning and design.

 

Since you are planning, I believe, to have your refugium in the sump, you will have to consider how much water will flow through your sump. Which means, IMO, getting a pump rated for said flow. Which also means achieving the desired flow in your main tank, by additional powerheads or a closed loop. IMO, a slow water flow is desired for a refugium as well as for increased skimming quality. The more the water is skimmed before being returned to the tank, the better. At least that was the case in my tank.

 

Ahhh the joys of setting a new tank :wink:

[tygger]

Looks good. Make sure you have enough clearance to remove you skimmer for cleaning.

 

Like Jean-marie said, also make sure you have enough capacity to compensate for the overflow during a power outage.

 

Are you going to be adding a auto top-off? If not, your return pump baffle may be too high. When the water starts to evap., the elevated fall is going to cause bubbles to enter your pump into the display.

[Jon Lazar]

I also noticed you have a check valve on your return line to the tank. Check valves are fine, as long as you don't need them. I've got one on my return so that the water level stays near normal when the return pump is off for feeding. (This keeps my house less stinky) But if there were no check valve, the suphon from the main tank still would not overflow the sump, because I drilled siphon breaks in the return line.

 

Bottom line: it's a bad idea to rely on a check valve to keep the sump from overflowing.

 

Happy reefing,

Jon

[EricBrian]

Just make sure that you provide enough volume in your sump to accomodate the extra water when your power goes off.

 

The extra water is the water volume that is in the overflow and return pipes at the time the electricity goes off?

 

Since you are planning, I believe, to have your refugium in the sump, you will have to consider how much water will flow through your sump. Which means, IMO, getting a pump rated for said flow.

 

How do I know what the proper flow would be?

 

Ahhh the joys of setting a new tank

 

Yes, I am thoroughly enjoying this as you can probably tell.

 

Are you going to be adding a auto top-off? If not, your return pump baffle may be too high. When the water starts to evap., the elevated fall is going to cause bubbles to enter your pump into the display.

 

Ahhh... didn't consider that. I probably won't have the funds right away to buy the topoff. By how much should I lower the baffle? Any suggestion?

 

But if there were no check valve, the suphon from the main tank still would not overflow the sump, because I drilled siphon breaks in the return line.

 

Bottom line: it's a bad idea to rely on a check valve to keep the sump from overflowing.

 

I am afraid that I don't quite understand. Can you explain?

 

Thanks all!

[tygger]

The extra water is the water that is above the overflow, in the overflow and pipes. On my tank, the water is about 1" above the overflow teeth.

 

I don't think there's a perfect flow rate for the fuge. Some say lower, some say higher, but with your setup, most of the flow is going to be going over and not through the fuge anyways. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

On my setup, I didn't consider the baffle height either so I built a rail to channel the water down into the return area. I wanted to keep it as high as possible to increase water capacity.

 

You shouldn't rely on a check valve. I also drilled anti-siphon holes on my returns to prevent it from sucking water down into the sump. When the power goes out in my tank, the water level in the display will stop at the overflow teeth. The water in my overflow will slowly seep back into the sump, but I have enough room to accomodate all the water from the overflow. If I put a check valve on the drain pipes, it should prevent the water from seeping.

[dzekunoi]

Looks good.

I had the same design but then had to add an extra skimmer box ( second sump) right to the main sump and raise it a little so water level would be optimal for skimmer. I could raise the skimmer in the sump but desided to leave that compartment for bags with media and pH, ORP and temperature probe.

Just check highest water level for your skimmer and make sure it will not be too high when water level for the fuge at desired level.

[EricBrian]

Thanks for your input Inna.

[davelin315]

Make sure that you drill a small hole on the return pipe in your tank right at or above the water line. If you don't, when the power shuts down, the water can backsiphon down into your sump, regardless of the check valve. Keep in mind that you'll get buildup in the check valve and also that a check valve itself will reduce the amount of flow that you have returning to the tank. Bottom line is that you'll inevitably get quite a bit of water from your main system when the pump is shut off.

 

Also, as far as flow is concerned, as a rule of thumb, refugiums should be fairly calm, but keep in mind that the water as it passes through your sump will be spread out. Since you have baffles, the water flow will be spread out across them versus shooting out of a small hole. You want the flow to be gentle so that any microbubbles that don't get taken out by the baffles are able to settle out of your water before it hits your return pump. Also, if you have macro algae, this will reduce the velocity as the water passes through. Theoretically, the longer the contact time the more the macroalgae will be able to absorb excess nutrients, but in the same token, I think that the actual amount of nutrient absorption is probably not really that affected by the velocity of the water as it'll be exposed to it over and over again.

 

One last comment, some people have their water go directly into the refugium before hitting the skimmer so that it provides for more food for critters in there. However, either way, you're still polishing the water off one way or the other.

[EricBrian]

After reading some of the posts above, I modified the design somewhat. I now have:

 

[emissary]

Yeah you definitely need to come by my place, you could see the things I did wrong and not make the same mistakes. Key things that jumped out at me --

 

In-sump skimmers generally require a VERY consistent water level. The way you've got it installed looks good. Make sure that it's easy to get out so you can clean it -- otherwise it just won't get cleaned. I got an external skimmer for that very reason... easy access.

 

I've got bubble problems with my setup. I'd recommend having 3 baffles before your return area. Over the first one, under the next one over the last one. The first 2 can be high, the last one should be just a little higher than your "ideal" water level to minimize the "fall." I also find the space between baffles to be a handy place to drop a heater into.

 

My "planned tank architecture" (which was actually accurately implemented) is here:

http://reef.korff.org/pictures/Tank-In-Wal...t/180G_inwall_4

[steveoutlaw]

I only see one problem. The general consensus I got when I did my research on a refugium was that the macro in the refugium needs the bad stuff in the water to live. The macro turns that bad stuff into good stuff to be sent to the main tank. You might want to consider putting your return chamber in the middle and having the skimmer chamber on the right and your refugium on the left. That way you have the skimmer skimming "raw" tank water and the refugium filtering "raw" tank water. The outputs from both of them would go to the return pump for a trip back to the main tank.

 

Just an opinion.

[Grav]

I agree with the last comment, you want raw tank water getting to the fuge.

 

Also, you may have too much flow. Rule of thumb, 10x tank volume throught the sump / skimmer. 5 to 10x FUGE volume through the fuge per hr

[cbashaw]

Check out Melevsreef it is a good site with lots of sump designs to give you some ideas.

http://melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

 

Your design looks good to me.

Keep in mind that when your water evaporates the area that will drain down is where your return pump is. I would think about an auto top off system because if the water level drops water will splash in to that area and you will have bubbles in the tank. I had that problem with my old sump design.

[EricBrian]

Thanks all for the input!

 

Check out Melevsreef it is a good site with lots of sump designs to give you some ideas.

http://melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

 

Your design looks good to me.

Keep in mind that when your water evaporates the area that will drain down is where your return pump is. I would think about an auto top off system because if the water level drops water will splash in to that area and you will have bubbles in the tank. I had that problem with my old sump design.

 

That is a great resource. Thank you for it.

 

-----

 

Something else that I am wondering, how big should my sump be? When I started the design, I just picked 30 gal tank but don't know for sure.

 

Thanks

Eric

[emissary]

Something else that I am wondering, how big should my sump be? When I started the design, I just picked 30 gal tank but don't know for sure.

 

As big as you can make it? What are you looking to do down there? Install a skimmer. Have a fuge. A fuge for what purpose(s)? In general the more volume the better regardless. I have a 90 under my 180.

[dgtlwar]

As big as you can make it? What are you looking to do down there? Install a skimmer. Have a fuge. A fuge for what purpose(s)? In general the more volume the better regardless. I have a 90 under my 180.

 

 

I'd install another raised baffle just before the return chamber to cut down on air bubbles. I have a very similar setup on my 90 gallon.

[EricBrian]

Yes, this is my current design.

 

[emissary]

Comments:

 

* Why the baffles before the fuge? It's not like a few bubbles there will bother anything... plus if you've got a good bit of rock and algae in there, they'll serve to calm any bubbles down. I'd just put in a single baffle, were I you. Plus it'll give you more fuge room.

 

* What do the gaps in the baffle before the fuge mean?

 

* Another way of reducing bubbles is putting the last baffle at a bit of an angle -- doesn't have to be much of one ... see my diagram above.

 

* You have extra room next to your protetin skimmer for the overflow pipe. Note that you can place the pipe BEHIND the skimmer and get some extra volume for the rest of your sump.

 

Is the drawing to scale? I used a free (and it FEELS free :-\) program named CadStd to draw mine to scale. Helped me really measure out how much volume, etc I'd be working with. My goals for my sump were:

* large fuge

* able to accomodate siphon from 180

* able to remove 40G of water without turning off return pump

[EricBrian]

CadStd is avaiable for Windows only.

 

Didn't realize when I looked at your diagram previously that the angled baffles were that way by design.

 

I got rid of the 1st bubble trap.

 

Not to scale since I don't know the equipment size yet.

[davelin315]

I would leave in the first set of baffles if I were you. The bubbles will cling to your macroalgae and in the long run will cause problems for you, at least in my experience. Typically, fuge lighting is not as high quality as tank lighting, so it's more prone to nuisance algae.

 

Also, in the last picture you have you have holes in the baffle next to the fuge. This will mean, with the way you have the baffles set up, that the water level will decrease across the fuge and the pump chamber when you have evaporation. My belief is that you should keep the level of your fuge constant and let the water drop down in the pump chamber only. This will create some more bubbles in your return as the water goes over the baffle, but that can easily be solved by making the baffles spaced apart more and slowing down the flow between them. If you really want to have the water draining from the fuge at more than one level then add another baffle directly to the left of the baffle with holes in it (by the way, you'll really need to have a ton of holes in that baffle or you'll have water shooting out of your fuge area) that maintains a constant water level. Also, you can use Yanek's idea of angled baffles, but be careful to make sure that a baffle that is holding water back is not angled (at least not angled more than 90 degrees away from the water area).

[rioreef]

I have a 29g sump on my 90g. The way I have it set up is the drain enters the chamber where the skimmer is, then a series of baffles (last at a slight angle) where water flows into the middle chamber. Here is my Mag 12 return that has a tee on the return. A very high majority of the return water goes back into the main tank. However where the tee is I have a ball valve allowing a low flow into the refugium section of the sump. Water flow is slow in the fuge and flows over the glass pane (also installed at a slight angle) back into the middle chamber. The fuge wall is much higher that the baffles too.

 

This tee also allows me to balance my drain/return flow. As far as the 'raw' water going to the fuge, my skimmer by no means processes all the water from the drain. So, as I see it there is raw water throughout the sump. The one exception my be the overflow of the fuge.

 

Plumbing off the Mag 12 (bottom of horizontal pipe off tee is approximate height of fuge wall

 

Tee with valve into fuge

 

Water returns the the main tank through a SCWD

[kngfisher]

Is is possible to se a pic of the entire sump? I also have a 90 with a 29 sump but have yet to install any baffles.

 

My current simple buy highly uneffective for fuge use is as follows.

 

far left (fluval 404 return) outside sump w/ carbon [use only as needed]

left side (TurboFlotor D1000 skimmer) [in-sump]

center ( drain from display tank ( 2.25" PVC straight down from 2.25" bulkhead) into area with extra live rock that I had from my 55.

right side ( return to display tank via eheim 1262 )

 

could use help on measurments of baffles ( hight and angle)

[rioreef]

Here is the whole sump picture. The three side by side baffles are approx 8 in in height, made from glass. The center one a little over an inch above the bottom of the sump. For any baffle that sits on the bottom, make sure the bottom corners are cut slightly back at a 45 degree angle. This is because of the silicone residing on the bottom of the glass tank where it meets the side wall. The angle of the baffles is slight, only a few degrees for the last baffle and the fuge baffle/wall.