Continuous water changes?

[Anemone]

I'm thinking about setting up a "continuous" water change system. Well actually it would be in bursts of a gallon or so controlled by a pump and timer (out of around 200 gallon total volume). Excess volume goes to the drain.

Anyone have experience with this approach?

[Delphinus88]

Following.   I want to set something like this up as well

[Anemone]

This is more common in freshwater I think because of not needing to worry about compensating for evaporation (to avoid salinity fluctuations). Seems like there should be some ways to address that issue so I'm hoping someone will share their experience.

[gmerek2]

I don't see any problem with it. He could adjust salinity of WC water to compensate for the evaporate issues. That's how I tweak my salinity. For example my tank has risen to 36ppt for unknown reason. My next 5% WC I'll put water in at 33ppt. Until reaches desired level. Just watch for water siphon when designing. Make sure timer can't be bumped by kids and set it off. Make sure overflow tube can't clog. Etc etc it is a tiny bit more risk. But I see the convenience factor for sure. I like to be present when WC is taking place because I'm a control freak

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited May 22, 2016 by gmerek2

[matt]

Theoretically, if you had a house drain plumbed to the return section of the sump as an overflow there....then any incoming water change water would push water above that house drain down that house drain. Depending on where in inbound water is plumbed to arrive, you might push some new water down the drain as well, but I suppose you could go this route for simplicity. However, there are probably some other downsides to this type of setup I'm not imagining...like dropping a fish bag from the LFS in to temp acclimate would automatically flush some system water down the drain without some manual valve controls.

[Origami]

Just curious as to how you're going to handle freshwater top offs accounting for daily evaporation with this approach. The last thing you want is to push water over the edge while doing topoffs without accounting for dilution or triggering your topoff to stop. Are you going to tie in a salinity monitor to ensure that it neither creeps up nor crashes down?

[ctreptow]

The only real way I can see this working as a totally automatic reduced worry situation is if you used 2 dosing pumps set to the same speed. One feeding the tank with fresh Saltwater and one pulling from the tank to drain. Any other solution to me would require floats and pumps which to me would scare me. 

[Der ABT]

I have mine set up with 2 peristaltic pumps from avast. Did a timed run many times to get rhe flow rates equal. ...example pump 1 runs about 2 hours, pump 2 runs about 236......but consistently pump 1 gallon at that rate

 

 

Yeh you may change some new water but your gonna do this regardless if it's daily.

 

I change 1 gallon per day

Fresh goes into the return section and old water gets pump out of the fuge at the same time...so the new water goes into the main tank first so it should dilute into the old water pretty well before it's drawn out

Waste water goes from there to my qt tank and from the qt to the drain.....yes you float a bag and the drain in the qt overflows......simply throw sone fresh salt water in when I do this or just let it refill on its own

 

My main is on an ato and I've had no issues but could shut the ato off during the water change times if I wanted to.

 

Ato for the qt is on a dosing pump so took so trial and error.

 

Now I just check salinity and top up levels

 

LOVING IT SO FAR...big thanks to AVAST...their pumps are awesome

 

Lemme know if I can help with any other questions

[dread240]

I run a dual head single motor peristaltic pump for mine. My system hasn't been up and running since the move but will be going right back into service when I get the 315g done. one pumps in and the other pumps out. I ran that system for over 2 years without issues. Since they both moved the same water the auto top off still ran just as normal and I never had salinity drift either.

[Anemone]

I run a dual head single motor peristaltic pump for mine.

Ingenious! Equal flow and no risk that only one pump would fall.

 

Salinity is the thing to think about. I've got 3 different ideas so far:

1. Forget topping off with RO water. Instead add a set volume of slightly hyposaline water per day and let the overflow go to drain. Check tank salinity weekly and adjust the change water's salinity up or down as needed to try to stay relatively stable.

2. Run a standard RO water ATO on a timer so I'll know when it's off, then add the change water during that window. E.g. ATO runs daily except from 5 to 5:30 pm, and change water gets added at 5:15. No risk of confusion between the ATO and "continuous" change systems.

Caveat: overflow to drain and ATO level have to be just about equal, otherwise bad things happen. (Salinity drifts up, or ATO dumps in the full supply if anything gets out of alignment.)

3. Run the change system with a salinity probe controller. 2 change water supplies are available, one at standard salinity and the other slightly hyposaline. Controller choses which to add depending on tank salinity value at the start of the addition. Add change water in a few discrete amounts throughout the day so the tank salinity equilibrates between additions (so the controller picks the right one).

4. Combine 2 and 3.

Hope any of that makes sense. I'm leaning towards 1 as the simplest but need some pilot experimentation time.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Anemone

[JR-Tanked150]

Definitely following this, looking forward to some diagrams or pictures.

[monkiboy]

I run a dual head single motor peristaltic pump for mine. My system hasn't been up and running since the move but will be going right back into service when I get the 315g done. one pumps in and the other pumps out. I ran that system for over 2 years without issues. Since they both moved the same water the auto top off still ran just as normal and I never had salinity drift either.

I've used the dual head pumps in a lot of builds, too. i like them a lot, specifically the stenner, p/n is 170DMP5.

 

for further information or set ups with it you can read about the tons of folks using them on the r2r thread here: http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/automatic-water-changes-it-doesnt-get-any-better-then-this.141619/

 

[Der ABT]

I'm Confused on the dual head pumps, I'd find it hard to believe they pump the exact rate being differences in rollers tubing etc I guess it's not far off enough to matter, I like the idea of two pumps so you can adjust the time...downside is if one fails the other still goes.

 

But regardless I really like the auto water changes

[Origami]

I'm Confused on the dual head pumps, I'd find it hard to believe they pump the exact rate being differences in rollers tubing etc I guess it's not far off enough to matter, I like the idea of two pumps so you can adjust the time...downside is if one fails the other still goes.

 

But regardless I really like the auto water changes

I like the idea of auto water changes, too. Nowadays, though, I just turn a couple of valves and plumbing automatically dumps water into a deep sink and other plumbing puts water in the sump. With my mixing tanks, I can do up to a 70 gallon water change (if I needed to go that much) in about 15 minutes or less. Most of my water changes are about 30 gallons and take all of about 5 minutes to execute.

 

On the topic of matching, that's exactly what Justin from Avast (ctenophore) discovered, if I recall correctly, from his experiment with a dual head peristaltic pump. There were minute differences in the tubing that ultimately affected the equality of the volumes. This led to some minor salinity drift in his case. I think that his system still does automatic water changes, but that he compensates for any salinity drift by using a salinity probe as a monitor.

 

I've got a dual head laboratory-grade Masterflex at home that, if I were so inclined, could probably put into similar service.

[monkiboy]

I'm Confused on the dual head pumps, I'd find it hard to believe they pump the exact rate being differences in rollers tubing etc I guess it's not far off enough to matter, I like the idea of two pumps so you can adjust the time...downside is if one fails the other still goes.

 

But regardless I really like the auto water changes

check out the r2r thread with near 30 pages of posts of reviews and experiences if interested. I've done a few wamas member installs and helped others with running tubing for installation of the stenners so hopefully they will jump on this thread and speak for themselves. on the 12-15 I've set up myself I haven't had issues with salinity drift. one run is over 60 feet, too. I could see on a nano or small sized tank maybe once in a month double checking but that's just part of regular review. on a regular sized tank or larger, it's like you said, any difference doesn't really affect much. you'd see more of a salinity shift wet skimming or your filter socks being clogged.

 

there are other dual head pumps out there much cheaper and DIY kits which folks have had mixed results with but the stenners are very well made and maintenance is a breeze, too. it's very modular and all parts are immediately available.

 

longest running one I had is just over two years I think so not a ton of feedback but happy so far. it's a relief when you don't have to do anything with a WC and parameters are stable with no effort other than making sure you have salt water available.

 

one caveat is that they are loud. most folks have them run at night or during the day when not home. also there is no calibration like you mentioned. if you really must have that, I'd look to the litermeter and slave pump but there are limitations there.

Edited May 24, 2016 by monkiboy

[Anemone]

Very helpful information, thank you! The r2r thread had a link to the pump manufacturer and it looks like the pumps are available for about $290 plus shipping ($15 ground to VA). Incredibly, the pump comes with tubing and fittings you'd need to set it up, plus a strainer for the intake. And if that wasn't enough, they are actually serviceable.

Very tempting. I'm thinking about the 100 gpd model, on a timer to get a few gallons per day changed.

Might still play with option 1 just because I can try it without buying anything.

 

http://www.lockewell.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_6_30_33

[gws3]

I set up a Stenner for auto WC for a few months.  Worked great at first.  Then the outlet line must have got a partial clog and over a few weeks I had a significant increase in salinity which stressed corals.  I believe what happened was the heat from the pump caused some local precipitation of calcium carbonate reducing the flow.  I have since removed the system and sold the pump. 

 

Honestly, I would recommend making your manual water change as easy as possible.  It can be accomplished by simply turning a few valves if you plumb it up to your FW reservoir. 

 

For me manual water changes do not take that much time and I know how much goes in and comes out.  I prefer this over the auto WC system where I have to worry about salinity and check pump output routinely. 

[monkiboy]

I set up a Stenner for auto WC for a few months.  Worked great at first.  Then the outlet line must have got a partial clog and over a few weeks I had a significant increase in salinity which stressed corals.  I believe what happened was the heat from the pump caused some local precipitation of calcium carbonate reducing the flow.  I have since removed the system and sold the pump.

thanks for sharing your experience, graham. good to note about monitoring of salinity a couple ways as part of review. often primary is apex conductivity alert and secondary a weekly digital refractometer reading during weekly testing of params.

[s2nhle]

Great. thank you for sharing. I have tried auto wc then went back to manual wc to eliminate point of failure.

[Anemone]

Great. thank you for sharing. I have tried auto wc then went back to manual wc to eliminate point of failure.

Was that because something went wrong, or just out of caution? Looking to better understand the failure scenarios before I try this.

[dcreefer]

I went through some similar ideas when I was running a really large tank and between life/work the water changes were not only time consuming, they were labor intensive....

 

I went this route.  http://seavisions.com/index.htm

 

I would recommend doing a little research on there product and seeing how you can recreate the spirit of the design without the cost.

[s2nhle]

Was that because something went wrong, or just out of caution? Looking to better understand the failure scenarios before I try this.

failure from the pump heads as I had to adjust and clean frequently. The other was I have to keep my eye on the saltwater reservoir, it must be ready all the time. third, is the fluctuation of the salinity.

[Anemone]

I went through some similar ideas when I was running a really large tank and between life/work the water changes were not only time consuming, they were labor intensive....

 

I went this route. http://seavisions.com/index.htm

 

I would recommend doing a little research on there product and seeing how you can recreate the spirit of the design without the cost.

Neat concept. So the system makes RO water, then dialyses the tank water against the RO water to remove waste products, and finally adds back synthetic salt to the treated water to keep constant salinity. Might be tough to DIY, especially the last step of adding the right amount of salt mix.

One bit of the description made me laugh: Another consideration is the proximity of a telephone line so that your DialySeas machine can be accessed via a modem connection. The DialySeas can be connected to a 2400-baud modem, which allows the user remote monitoring and control of the DialySeas.

So, I guess this web page hasn't been updated in a while.

[Anemone]

failure from the pump heads as I had to adjust and clean frequently. The other was I have to keep my eye on the saltwater reservoir, it must be ready all the time. third, is the fluctuation of the salinity.

Do you remember how extreme the salinity fluctuations were, and whether you figured out the cause?

[dcreefer]

The DialySeas can be connected to a 2400-baud modem, which allows the user remote monitoring and control of the DialySeas.

So, I guess this web page hasn't been updated in a while.

 

True, I think the original systems were pretty old school but soundly built.  They have a new system on their page that actually lays out the parts of the system and from that you get a view into how the product works...

 

http://seavisions.com/prod07.htm

 

They call out using four peristaltic self-priming pumps, manual timers, float switches and two conductivity controllers.  Reading through the information you may be able to gleam some good insight into where potential problems may lie and how to mitigate them.

 

Hope that helps!