paul b February 2, 2016 Share February 2, 2016 I don't know if you noticed but there are an awefully lot of people posting on disease forums. Why is that? Fish in the sea are almost always healthy until someone puts them in a tank. I have been diving since the early 70s and don't remember ever seeing a sick fish on a reef. How many fish refuse to eat while in a tank? Way to many. How many fish live long enough to die of old age in a tank? Very very few. Why is that? I think I know. The only thing I think I do that may be different from many people in regard to fish health is to feed food every day that has living bacteria in it. Why is that important? It is important because it is the gut bacteria in the fish, and all living creatures that determine the state of health the fish is going to be. Not the water parameters but the gut bacteria. Gut bacteria in fish is directly responsible for the condition of the immune system and the immune system is directly responsible for the fishes health. In humans it is also partly responsible for mental health, moods and the risk of obesity and cancer. It also helps manufacture vitamins such as vitamin B and K. We don't normally think of gut bacteria until we kill it off by either drinking to much alcohol or taking antibiotics. That hangover is partly due to the of dying of bacteria. Antibiotics have the unfortunate habbit of only killing some strains of bacteria while leaving others unscathed. After taking some antibiotics it could take up to a year for our bacterial flora to return to normal levels. I am not sure how quickly it occurs in fish. The study of gut bacteria in humans and to a lesser extent fish has recently brought about some interesting insights. Experiments are being done by transfering gut bacteria from healthy people to people with all sorts of maladys and in many cases the bacteria returns the ill person to health. They found that if they take stomach flora from an obese rat and put it in a normal rat, the normal mouse becomes obese. That in itself is, to me anyway, totally astonishing and opens up an entire new world of research. This even happened to a person. In trying to cure a disease, they took gut bacteria from a healthy person and deposited it into the stomach of a sick person. But the doner was obese. Guess what happened? Not only was the sick person cured, but he became obese also. Gut bacteria is probably 2/3rds of the mass in the colon of us humans and probably also in fish. They compromise over 1,000 species of bacteria and the population of bacteria is unique and different in every fish. Gut bacteria is largly determined by what the fish is eating including what types of bacteria and in what condition it is in. We (and fish) have ten times more bacterial genes in us than human genes. We humans aquire gut bacteria from our Mothers as soon as we are born through breast feeding. It is now known that babies that are fed on formula do not have the correct gut bacteria and are at much more of a risk for allergies later in life. Fish fry get their first dose of gut bacteria from the Mother while they are still in the egg and that is how tiny fry can live in a soup of diseases and parasites as they grow. One reason why so many people have so much trouble keeping fish healthy is because they feed nothing but dry, sterile foods. Dry foods have all been sterilized through the process of drying or they have preservatives added. If dry food had bacteria in it, it would go bad very quickly and most bacteria (like everything else) needs moisture to live. If you feed nothing but dry foods I believe you should add some frozen or fresh food to the diet. Why can I put fish in my tank from anywhere without quarantining with no fear of a disease while some tanks are ich magnets and no matter what they do, they can't keep fish alive. I think it is due to the correct gut bacteria that my fish get every day through live worms, or frozen foods such as clams which are filter feeders and are loaded with bacteria. Or as many people like to say, I am "lucky" and have been for 40 years. If you are the type of person that quarantines, I believe you should be feeding types of foods that have living bacteria in them. Frozen foods have bacteria in them in a dormant state that should revive as the food warms up. Live foods such as worms, brine shrimp, mosqueto larvae etc are also full of bacteria although some live foods would be better than others nutritionally. Remember we should not only focus on the nutritional value of a food, but maybe even more important, the bacterial population as that is the key to fishes health and more importantly, our own. For the many people that don't believe in any of this, think it is fantasy or that I made it up because I have nothing to do, just google Gut Bacteria and how it effects health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sethsolomon February 2, 2016 Share February 2, 2016 Some thoughts on this as well, is people treating fish with copper causing the bacteria in the fish's stomach to die off also killing there immune system. Most large box wholesalers run copper in there systems and this may be one of the problems it causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b February 2, 2016 Author Share February 2, 2016 I am sure it is, but in the defense of wholesalers, they don't have much of a choice as the fish are in tight quarters while being shipped all over the world. If it were not for copper, there would be no fish hobby. Hopefully something better will be discovered that will keep the fish safe while leaving their gut bacteria alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 3, 2016 Share February 3, 2016 We have to feed fish? I think you may have just solved all my problems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b February 3, 2016 Author Share February 3, 2016 Yes, unlike Supermodels, fish can't live by just spraying a little chicken soup into their face a couple of times a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW09903 February 3, 2016 Share February 3, 2016 Are there any quality probiotic products in the market for fish? Vitamin enhanced items like Selcon can help "boost" immune systems but are there any yogurts for fish to increase intestinal bacteria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b February 3, 2016 Author Share February 3, 2016 I don't know, I use live worms and clams every day because they are loaded with all the pro biotics fish need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 3, 2016 Share February 3, 2016 (edited) Are there any quality probiotic products in the market for fish? Vitamin enhanced items like Selcon can help "boost" immune systems but are there any yogurts for fish to increase intestinal bacteria? LRS Reef Frenzy is one product that's added probiotics to their line up recently. Please contact Larry directly in his forum here on WAMAS. Product discussion located here. Edited February 3, 2016 by Origami Moved product discussion to Sponsor forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW09903 February 4, 2016 Share February 4, 2016 LRS Reef Frenzy is one product that's added probiotics to their line up recently. Please contact Larry directly in his forum here on WAMAS. Product discussion located here. Thanks Tom. I have been using LRS Reef frenzy for the last year and a half. I guess my fish are getting the good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 4, 2016 Share February 4, 2016 Thanks Tom. I have been using LRS Reef frenzy for the last year and a half. I guess my fish are getting the good stuff! It IS good stuff. LRS is donating some more of their great food to our next meeting, which is in about 2 weeks. The meeting thread is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sad Panda February 4, 2016 Share February 4, 2016 (edited) Ok I agree with this thread (even though I'm new to the hobby) it just....makes sense. BUT is everyone ordering these foods with bacteria online or is there a type that can be purchased locally? I don't like to keep relying on the mail service to get me fish food. Oh and if one is available locally what would be a good one? Edited February 4, 2016 by Sad Panda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt February 4, 2016 Share February 4, 2016 LRS is available locally...many of the club sponsors carry it I'm sure. Just from remembering seeing adverts etc, ERC and Reef Escape have...and I'd expect still do. I'd bet most of the other LFSs who are sponsors do as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 4, 2016 Share February 4, 2016 LRS outlets can be found on their website on this page. it shows that, in the DC suburbs, several of our sponsors (Capital Aquarium, Quantum Reefs, Marine Scene, and ERC) and one non-sponsor (Tropical Lagoon) carry it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b February 4, 2016 Author Share February 4, 2016 Here is another way I get live foods (with associated Bacteria) into my fish. I have been using a baby brine shrimp feeder for many years. Notice the blue stripe pipefish and the mandarin are pregnant as they always are. This is over an hour after I loaded the feeder with shrimp so there isn't much left. The mandarins usually just hog the thing but they hate to have their picture taken so they jump off as soon as they see me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 4, 2016 Share February 4, 2016 Because my tank is so small, I let some LRS break down over a couple of days in the fridge in a saltwater cup. I use the big chunks for the fish, and I squirt the "juice" that's left onto my zoanthids and acans. I don't know what it would look like if I tested my levels, but probably shocking. I'm confident that the food vs. pellets is doing a great job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b February 4, 2016 Author Share February 4, 2016 LRS is very good food. I use it myself occasionally. It is almost the only commercial food I use. Larry was good enough to give me a package and I loved it. Now I buy it like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReefFrenzy February 5, 2016 Share February 5, 2016 LRS is very good food. I use it myself occasionally. It is almost the only commercial food I use. Larry was good enough to give me a package and I loved it. Now I buy it like everyone else. Thanks Paul for the kudos! I always enjoy our chats and thank you for the vote of support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b February 5, 2016 Author Share February 5, 2016 I support only what I like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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