nextlevel808 October 28, 2015 Share October 28, 2015 I'm new to dosing only been dosing for last 3 months. I'm using Reef Grow products and they are buffer for Kh, Calcium, and magnesium. For some reason my Alk or Kh keeps dropping no matter the amount I'm dosing it seems unless I spike it. My tests are at Kh-7.3, Cal-480, Mag-1350 and dosing daily Cal-78ml, buffer (Kh)-142ml, and Mag-60ml. I have a 120g DT with 30g sump. Tank is mostly sps and lps with about 60 different pieces of coral but in my opinion nothing very big for colonies. There is 10 different chalice, 15 monti's, 6 small acros, decent size birds nest, 4 favia, frogspawn and few other lps I'm not thinking of at moment. I had Alk or Kh at 9.3 for the first month of dosing and growth was great but now it's slowed and seems to level off at 7.3 even with adding so much daily. I know there should be a balance between the 3. I don't know if I leaving anything else out but if there is anymore info you need please ask. Please help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nextlevel808 October 28, 2015 Author Share October 28, 2015 Also if the next question is which test kit am I using I'll throw this in to it too. Results from different test kits all are good (not expired) and used correctly as far as I can tell but again I don't have a chemistry degree now. Alk(Kh) Red Sea test-7.3 Salifert-8.3 Hanna-116ppm or 6.496 Cal Red Sea-475 Salifert-480 Mag Red Sea-1340 Salifert-1350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbyatv October 28, 2015 Share October 28, 2015 Your answer might be here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm Or in one of these articles. Reading is key. http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605 Good Luck, Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epleeds October 28, 2015 Share October 28, 2015 Just by looking at you ALK readings all 3 are different. Personally I prefer Salifert tests kits. But if I were you, I would pick one and only use that one. That way your not chasing numbers between 3 different kits. As long as the ALK is stable that will help with the growth of the corals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nextlevel808 October 28, 2015 Author Share October 28, 2015 That was only the first time of me using the salifert and Hanna kits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami October 28, 2015 Share October 28, 2015 First, your alk measurements vary greatly. Something is wrong with either the kit or your handling. You need to have some level of trust in your measurements and kits before you can really go forward. Depending upon which Red Sea test kit you're using, I'd toss that measurement out. If you're using one of the Red Sea Pro kits, they're generally a lot better (in my experience) than the cheap $5 kit option. But, I'm still concerned about the large difference you're seeing between your Salifert and Hanna kits. (I'm assuming that you're using the egg-shaped Hanna alk colorimeter here.) First, I'm assuming that you're getting these measurements from testing the same tank water at the same time, and that you're taking your water sample below the surface, using clean vials for your test. I'm also assuming that you're not picking up any particulates in the water sample. Second, I don't know much about Reefgrow products (haven't used them), but I'm particularly concerned in that I don't see that they offer an alkalinity additive, but that they offer a "buffer" additive. Assuming that you're using the buffer, I have a concern that the label for that product includes the components that add to borate alkalinity. Borate alkalinity will shift and buffer pH but provides no benefit to our corals. Your interest is in keeping good levels of carbonate alkalinity. Personally, I'd probably move to different products. When you add your supplement, do you take another alk measurement and do you see the rise that you were expecting? Keep in mind that alk levels can drop quickly. In a well-developed SPS tank, for example, you can see 1-2+ dKH of drop in the course of a day without supplementation. That's why many of us use automated dosing systems to control these levels (kalk stirrers, calcium reactors, or two-part chemicals being added by metered pumps). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nextlevel808 October 29, 2015 Author Share October 29, 2015 First, your alk measurements vary greatly. Something is wrong with either the kit or your handling. You need to have some level of trust in your measurements and kits before you can really go forward. Depending upon which Red Sea test kit you're using, I'd toss that measurement out. If you're using one of the Red Sea Pro kits, they're generally a lot better (in my experience) than the cheap $5 kit option. But, I'm still concerned about the large difference you're seeing between your Salifert and Hanna kits. (I'm assuming that you're using the egg-shaped Hanna alk colorimeter here.) First, I'm assuming that you're getting these measurements from testing the same tank water at the same time, and that you're taking your water sample below the surface, using clean vials for your test. I'm also assuming that you're not picking up any particulates in the water sample. Second, I don't know much about Reefgrow products (haven't used them), but I'm particularly concerned in that I don't see that they offer an alkalinity additive, but that they offer a "buffer" additive. Assuming that you're using the buffer, I have a concern that the label for that product includes the components that add to borate alkalinity. Borate alkalinity will shift and buffer pH but provides no benefit to our corals. Your interest is in keeping good levels of carbonate alkalinity. Personally, I'd probably move to different products. When you add your supplement, do you take another alk measurement and do you see the rise that you were expecting? Keep in mind that alk levels can drop quickly. In a well-developed SPS tank, for example, you can see 1-2+ dKH of drop in the course of a day without supplementation. That's why many of us use automated dosing systems to control these levels (kalk stirrers, calcium reactors, or two-part chemicals being added by metered pumps). Ok yes I'm using the Red Sea pro kits and have been using them for months. When my Alk started dropping even when adding more buffer I wanted to try few different test kits to see the results. And yeah they do range a big difference I also tested them multiple times that morning and got same results with each test. I know without sending my water out to lab like triton I don't know for sure which is right or even close. Yes my Hanna is the egg shaped one for marine Alk which I bought from brs. I also completely understand that with a well developed sps tank it will consume a lot of dKh in a day. That's why I tried to give as much info as possible with a picture too. I use 4 automatic dosing pumps 1 for Kh,1 for calcium, 1 for mag, and 1 for vinegar and the measurements I gave are what it doses throughout a 24 hour day. The only one I didn't give was vinegar because figured that's irrelevant to this situation. As far as the Reef Grow product for dKh it says on bottle total dKh of 9.63, 145ppm carbonate and 27ppm of borate. I'll have to look further into there product but heard from many other people in some of my other groups that Reef Grow products are really good. Not sure what others are using here. Now again I haven't taken a chemistry class since high school 17 years ago so I guess my next step would be going to class to learn what the H-E-double hockey sticks all these elements do and how they interact together. Because reading that article I feel like it's in a different language and I don't seem to be getting a lot of helpful advice here. I ask for help and get made to feel like I'm an idiot and don't know how to test my water. Just figured with all the knowledgeable people on here someone might be able to help or give pointers as to what could be going on. I've had my buddy Ron's help from here and he is as stumped as I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami October 29, 2015 Share October 29, 2015 A member close to you might be able to run a couple of alk tests for you. That may be a good cross-check. Regarding the chemistry: Hard corals lay down a skeleton composed primarily of calcium carbonate (CaCO3). (Magnesium will sometimes substitute for the Calcium atom in many skeletons, but at a rate that varies (by species, it seems) from a 0.5 to as much as 5‰.) The carbonate component of this compound comes from carbonate alkalinity in the water, which is present in three (dissolved) forms: Carbonate (CO3) ions, bicarbonate (HCO3) ions, and dissolved carbon dioxide (CO2). Borates are built around Boron and Oxygen or hydroxide of oxygen, mostly. Boron is not a significant component in coral skeletons and will accumulate in your water over time (unless you periodically perform large water changes to bring it down). Unfortunately, Borate alkalinity contributes to total alkalinity (T-alk) which most test kits measure. This creates a problem in that you're really interested in measuring carbonate alkalinity, but what you're getting is a measurement that is a combination of borate and carbonate alkalinity. Unless you take a borate alkalinity measurement (Seachem has a kit, and it's also part of their alkalinity test kit), the contribution of borate alkalinity to the T-alk measurement is unknown. In cases where we're not dosing borate, this is not a practical problem as long as we stick to using the same salt mix over time. That's because manufacturers tend to keep the same composition in their mixes, and the impact on our tanks remains constant. However, if you're dosing borate - that is, adding an ion that's not being consumed, but is accumulating - the masking effect is unknown (unless you're measuring it separately) and increasing. That's why I would stop using it. It's putting something in your system that you don't need. Now, why is it there? Well, borate alkalinity does contribute to buffering your pH, and to raise your overall pH level. However, you can achieve and maintain healthy pH levels without it by relying and managing carbonate alkalinity. By the way, baking soda is a common, inexpensive compound that will boost carbonate alkalinity. Good old Arm and Hammer from the grocery. No Boron, either. Sent from my LG-V510 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM October 29, 2015 Share October 29, 2015 Tom touched on this, but make sure to test alkalinity the same time each day. I test mine in the morning just after the lights come on. Otherwise you're testing at different points in the consumption and you'll get varying results. Until the time comes where we can really monitor alk in realtime it seems like the most reasonable thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nextlevel808 October 29, 2015 Author Share October 29, 2015 Thanks Tom for the help and sorry to voice my frustration. I know we all have a lot of time, money and love into our tanks and they can be stressful at times. I'll look into everything you mentioned as well. Also thank you AlanM for your help now and in the past. I also probably should have included that bit of info in the statement as well that I tested every day same exact time for 2 weeks straight just trying to monitor the thing. I know I don't like to chase numbers and probably shouldn't be as long as my coral and fish are happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami October 29, 2015 Share October 29, 2015 Alan's not that far away from you. Just sayin' that he might be able to help give you another perspective by running some of your water against his test kits to look for some consistent measurement. By the way, regarding your other numbers: Magnesium is OK - 1350 is a bit higher than NSW (natural sea water) but perfectly acceptable. Calcium, at 480 is a bit higher than normal. For example, a "balanced" calcium level for water with 10 dKH of alkalinity is 432 ppm. Calcium at 480 ppm would have an alk level at close to 16.5 dKH. Now what is "balance" all about? It's basically a straight line (i.e. linear) relationship between calcium and alkalinity that passes through the calcium/alkalinity point for natural sea water. That relationship is based upon the stochiometric ratio of the components of calcium carbonate (the primary component of coral skeletons). That ratio says that you'll consume 20 ppm of calcium for every milliequivalent of carbonate alkalinity; or, equivalently, 20 ppm of calcium for every 2.8 dKH of carbonate alkalinity. A "normal" tank would run calcium at a lower level - closer to 420-430 ppm. It could be that, at such high levels of calcium, you're having trouble raising alkalinity because the alk is precipitating out abiotically. If that's what's happening here, then the solution might be a large water change, or a series of them over the next few weeks, to begin bringing your levels back into more normal ranges. It still doesn't answer why you're getting such variation in your test measurements, though. But, it may explain why you're not seeing the expected increase in alkalinity despite adding more of your alkalinity product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami October 29, 2015 Share October 29, 2015 By the way, have you ever tried testing your freshly mixed saltwater with your different test kits? If so, what were the numbers? Also, do you use RO/DI water to mix up your saltwater, or do you use tap water? And, if you're using tap water, does it go through a water softener first? Using straight tap water would elevate your calcium numbers because of the inherent hardness of the water in our area. What salt mix do you use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nextlevel808 October 31, 2015 Author Share October 31, 2015 I use RoDi water and Red Sea Coral Pro salt. Thanks Tom for all the advice and info that was very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k October 31, 2015 Share October 31, 2015 based on the picture, I'm willing to bet that the coralline algae is the largest consumer of c/a. when approaching this from a service perspective, I would stop dosing all together since corals are still frag size and let parameters fall to whatever they'll fall to by doing regular water changes and calculate demand. Then I'd start dosing again at a rate that will match the demand to keep those numbers stable. To simplify this, I'd only use BRS chemicals rather than some pre-mixed solutions because then you can make a custom blend of each component. I vary the amounts of chemical at times to maintain stability over time. FWIW, my best coral growth occurs with these params, but YMMV. temp 75-77 tds 0-2 Ca 425 alk 3.42 meq/l mg 1350 Po4 <0.5 No3 <20 pH 8.0-8.2 Ca/Alk dosed on a one channel doser with dual lineset. Mg supplemented by hand when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM October 31, 2015 Share October 31, 2015 Rob, what are those dual lineset, repurposed medical pumps that you like again? I remember that they had a website, but can't find them. Rob does the calculation and dilutes the 2-part until they are in the right ratios and doses the same amount of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami October 31, 2015 Share October 31, 2015 The picture was blocked at work, but now that I see it, you sure have had some success with coralline algae. Nice job. Just summarizing discussion to date (see below for a note, however): Find out why your alkalinity measurements are inconsistent. Try testing some freshly mixed saltwater with your kits to see if you can get consistency there. Otherwise, enlist help from somebody nearby. If you can begin believing in your alk measurements, bring it into the 8-10 dKH range. (I'd probably recommend 9-10 because you don't know how much boric alk you're dealing with now that you've been dosing that other product for a while. Switch to a different alk product, or select a different regimen altogether (BRS does repackage good products). For alkalinity, baking soda will do the job. (Read Randy Holmes-Farley's "An Improved Do-It-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System" article to start with.) Stop dosing calcium since it's pretty high and let it drift downward, or perform a large water change to bring it down. Calcium in the range of 420-430 works well. Keep your magnesium where it is. One note: You're using Red Sea Coral Pro salt and, according to their literature, several ions are elevated. Namely, calcium for this mix is reportedly at 465 ppm, magnesium at 1390 ppm, and 12.5 dKH for alkalinity at 35 ppt salinity. This is almost undoubtedly the basis for your elevated numbers for calcium (that, and your supplementation to hold these levels). That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is very high compared with the leading salts used by reefers (Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals). The alk level borders on uncomfortably high for me, personally. None of this, though, answers why your alk measurements are inconsistent, though. You should work to address that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nextlevel808 November 1, 2015 Author Share November 1, 2015 Ok yeah my coralline has taken off like crazy. I'm going to switch to brs products and stop dosing for few days and check my levels. Thanks for all the help and advice. I'll have to figure out the brs mixing but if I have any questions on that I'll ask then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami November 1, 2015 Share November 1, 2015 BRS Instructions for DIY 2-Part Solutions BRS Dosing Calculator to figure out how much of the solutions to add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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