Can I run my protein skimmer to a drain?

[John Ford]

^{Tom it is the neutral, there is no currect flow}

I think this is the first time I've read Paul yell. If that makes any sense...

I'll be over here --->

[dante411x]

OP, I see you're in Alexandria. Do you have a breakout box and an Apex? If you want to stop by (I'm right by ballston commons mall) I have a the switches from an old JBJ ATO you can use.

I wish I could afford it right now! At the moment I'm not really buying anything else, christmas and this build got me too close to having to tap into savings than I'd like.

 

+1 I love mine and it is hooked up to my apex....

I WILL HAVE ONE OF THOSE! Thanks for the post! I'm just trying to automate as much as possible, but you all are right. It's too dangerous to cut this corner.

 

It's going to carry some of the return, though, when shorted, won't it (from the pump that's being driven on the other outlet)? Don't GFCI's require the hot and neutral to become imbalanced in order to trip? That imbalance is carried through the ground? (In other words, by potentially shorting the neutral and the ground, you're adding a second, redundant wire in parallel with the neutral back to the panel. That should share the return current back to the panel, then, no?

 

Edit: Ah, but I see now. It's neutral so there should be no hazard due to an open voltage. Brilliant and elegant. Love it.

This is interesting... I might have to try my hand at one

[paul b]

Tom, No, No and No, and no again, there is no current flow as that neutral that we are using to trip the GFCI is not connected to anything, no load, nada, nothing so there is no current flow at all.  If you connect that neutral to a ground, there will be a slight imbalance in the two conductors because that neutral is connected to all the other neutrals in the panel, (and in your neighborhood) so it has a tiny voltage potential on it, but it is so tiny that you can't even measure it.  It is smaller than Paris Hiltons dog.  But the GFCI is smarter than Miss Hiltons dog and it will think you are trying to fool it so it will trip.

[AlanM]

I never knew that an unused neutral to ground could trip a gfci plug. Is that how those tester plugs work?

[Origami]

Tom, No, No and No, and no again, there is no current flow as that neutral that we are using to trip the GFCI is not connected to anything, no load, nada, nothing so there is no current flow at all.  If you connect that neutral to a ground, there will be a slight imbalance in the two conductors because that neutral is connected to all the other neutrals in the panel, (and in your neighborhood) so it has a tiny voltage potential on it, but it is so tiny that you can't even measure it.  It is smaller than Paris Hiltons dog.  But the GFCI is smarter than Miss Hiltons dog and it will think you are trying to fool it so it will trip.

Yeah. I got it after thinking about it again.

 

Now, since we're on the topic, is this something that you want routinely tripping or is it best for an emergency case like how you've got them set up? Do these GFCI outlets hold up well to routine tripping or does their performance fade - unlike Paris' dog (unfortunately)?

[YHSublime]

I wish I could afford it right now! At the moment I'm not really buying anything else, christmas and this build got me too close to having to tap into savings than I'd like.

 

Merry Christmas bud, I wasn't trying to sell it to you! I was trying to give it to you! If gas is an issue, I work in Alexandria, so I can always bring it to work and you can scoop it there if you want to give it a shot.

[paul b]

 

I never knew that an unused neutral to ground could trip a gfci plug. Is that how those tester plugs work?

 

I didn't think it would trip either until I tested it as I used to use the hot wire.  The neutral has a potential on it but it doesn't go anywhere because there is no load on it.  When you ground it, there is a path to ground for that potential which is slightly less than what is already on the ground.  The potetial on the neutral is just there because of the resistance of the neutral wires in the house.  As you know they are connecte4d to the ground in the panel.

I am sure there are cases where this won't work depending on how the home is wired, but it works in my hiouse.  Try it with a GFCI.  If I get time, (i doubt it) I will check the thing again but mine trips all the time in my skimmer bucket.

Tom, you are supposed to test them all the time by pushing the button, there is a tag on them to test.  Think of this as that test.

Mine has been working for many years.

Edited December 17, 2013 by paul b

[Origami]

I didn't think it would trip either until I tested it as I used to use the hot wire.  The neutral has a potential on it but it doesn't go anywhere because there is no load on it.  When you ground it, there is a path to ground for that potential which is slightly less than what is already on the ground.  The potetial on the neutral is just there because of the resistance of the neutral wires in the house.  As you know they are connecte4d to the ground in the panel.

I am sure there are cases where this won't work depending on how the home is wired, but it works in my hiouse.  Try it with a GFCI.  If I get time, (i doubt it) I will check the thing again but mine trips all the time in my skimmer bucket.

Tom, you are supposed to test them all the time by pushing the button, there is a tag on them to test.  Think of this as that test.

Mine has been working for many years.

I rigged one up last night, Paul, just as you described it - using spare material from may basement finishing project. Under no-load conditions, I shorted the neutral and the ground and the outlet tripped. Worked just great. Thanks for the tip.

[paul b]

Whats today?  Oh, Tuesday. I am usually right on Tuesdays.  But that's about it.

Edited December 17, 2013 by paul b

[dante411x]

To make an overflow switch from a GFCI, first of all I will say it is probably illegal. But it is not dangerous. Just use the GFCI that you plug whatever feeds the skimmer into . Take a wire from the neutral "load" side of the GFCi and bring it down the height of the water you want the thing shutting off at in the bucket. Then take a ground wire from the same GFCI and bring it down to the same place. I put the ends of those wires into a small container like an old film container. Film is like Scotch tape but pictures stick to it. I put some stainless steel washers into the container for a weight but you can use a rock, quarters, your false teeth, old kidney stones or anything heavy. I glue gun those weights into the container but make sure the tips of the wires are exposed in the container so that when the water hits them, it will trip the GFCI and turn off the pump. Drill some holes in the container so the water gets in. Of course you can just dangle the wires in the bucket but people will tell you it is dangerous and cause all sorts of things like global warming, electracution, locusts, plague etc so put it in a container so you can't touch it with your fingers (even though it won't shock you but I don't feel like argueing as I was an electrician for 40 years and I learned one of two things)

 

On the back of the GFCI receptacle you will see where the white or neutral is connected, Use the one that reads "Load"

I have those water detecting GFCI switches all over the place even for the leak detector under my tank.

Test the thing by sticking the thing in water. You can also use the hot wire from the GFCI but don't do that as it will make a spark when water hits it and it could "potentially" shock you. Now you are going to hear all the reasons you should not do that. But don't be a Sissy. Be a Man and make the switch.

I read too fast usually. Finally read through this thread slowly and I was pretty much on the floor laughing for most of it.

 

In other news, that's a fantastic way to make a float switch. Makes perfect sense.

[Geoffwehler]

Brilliant! Thank you for clarifying. It makes perfect sense and well thought out. Especially when compared to the test button. My 5 gallon bucket will soon have a PaulB GFCI shut off.

 

 

 

[paul b]

Brilliant! Thank you for clarifying. It makes perfect sense and well thought out. Especially when compared to the test button. My 5 gallon bucket will soon have a PaulB GFCI shut off.

I don't know about brilliant.  Really, really cool maybe.  Fantastically inovative. Astutely imaginative.   But Brilliant, I don't think so.  I have installed probably more GFIs or gfcis like you guys call them (but they are GFIs in the trade)  than everyone on here combined as I used to do that as an electrician.  When the things were invented the company who built them sent me to school for them.  Don't get excited, it was a stupid course that a monkey could understand, but it makes perfect sence to use them as shut off switches and I have always done so.  I think they came out in the 70s.  You can also use them as a leak detector under your tank or boiler buty for that you need a relay.  It is simple.

[Coral Hind]

Nice DIY Paul, basically a shunt trip. There would be voltage/current flowing between the probes but it would be very briefly until the outlet opens, totally safe.

[AlanM]

Nice DIY Paul, basically a shunt trip. There would be voltage/current flowing between the probes but it would be very briefly until the outlet opens, totally safe.

 

 

Ooh, he's going to get mad that you said that there was current flowing. 

 

It's between an unused neutral and the ground which both tie together in the box anyway, so it seems like any voltage difference would have to be some kind of induced voltage in the line or something.

[Coral Hind]

Ooh, he's going to get mad that you said that there was current flowing. 

 

It's between an unused neutral and the ground which both tie together in the box anyway, so it seems like any voltage difference would have to be some kind of induced voltage in the line or something.

I don't know why he would get mad, it's a basic principle of electricity that a 120v outlet load will carry current on the neutral because there is nothing to balance it out. The neutral you said is "unused" is bonded to the other neutral so current can flow thru it if the path is completed via the bucket ground. Yes, the ground and neutral are tied at the main panel but these added probes offer another route to ground so it would seek this path and in fact it has to seek this path in order for the outlet to trip and this DIY to work. Only by the current flowing thru the probes seeking ground does it partially flow through the outlet's CT sensor. When the outlet see's that current is flowing somewhere other than back on the proper neutral where it should be going will it trip.

[paul b]

Exactimundo

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2013 by paul b

[Origami]

I don't know why he would get mad, it's a basic principle of electricity that a 120v outlet load will carry current on the neutral because there is nothing to balance it out. The neutral you said is "unused" is bonded to the other neutral so current can flow thru it if the path is completed via the bucket ground. Yes, the ground and neutral are tied at the main panel but these added probes offer another route to ground so it would seek this path and in fact it has to seek this path in order for the outlet to trip and this DIY to work. Only by the current flowing thru the probes seeking ground does it partially flow through the outlet's CT sensor. When the outlet see's that current is flowing somewhere other than back on the proper neutral where it should be going will it trip.

That's what I was getting at at the start.

 

What I found rather cool is that nothing operational needs to be plugged into the outlet in order to get it to trip by shorting the neutral and the bare grounds together. Maybe this is because it has the small neon light on the outlet that's carrying some current when not tripped and some of this gets divided to the bare wire ground to create the hot-neutral imbalance - not sure.

 

Regardless of the mechanism, though, it's a neat way to use this relatively inexpensive device as a leak sensor. It's also such a simple design, I think of it as elegant.

[paul b]

I think of it as cheap.  You can buy a very expensive leak detector, but why bother?