Magnesium observations

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

I have seen pictures like that with colored corals out of the water.

Interesting observation Paul... Maybe a break thru that the most successful tanks are keeping their corals on the edge of death...

I would like to understand this more.

 

Alan I have seen pics like that with colored tabling corals out of the water. Not sure if they were photoshopped, but I have a hard time believing corals have no color in the wild.

[DaveS]

We should keep in mind that the corals kept in our hobby/tanks, are not representative of the entire coral population out there. We tend to only keep/propagate colorful ones and toss back brown ones. That skews the comparison between what we seen a reef and in our tanks.

[sachabballi reef]

I have done a lot of diving in all different countries and Paul's pictures absolutely reflect what you eyes see underwater.  It isn't until our flash lights up the frame do you notice colors, your naked eye doesn't.   The only things you notice colors in are the fish.  The rest is kinda blah and bland and blues and greys...So I am not sure I could agree with Piper.  I do find Paul's observations so wonderful and thought provoking because he made me actually stop and think and want to research...because I don't see colors regardless of the depths I am diving I am wondering what that means in our tanks. 

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

What don't you agree with me on? I have not really made any statements to begin with, just asking questions.

 

Yes Paul's post made me think, I am glad he decided to actually chip in after he was done joking.

 

I don't dive, snorkeld once. So I am trying to learn. But From what i remember i have seen many videos of shallow reefs with brilliantly colored sps corals. Of course the deeper you go the less color the corals have. And if your taking pictures of brown porites fields, the pictures will look, brown.

 

What happens when you bring some of the bland deeper corals up to the light and look at them? Are they still completely bland?

[Origami]

In my experience, there's a lot of color on some reefs and less on others. It even varies by dive site, sometimes, and certainly over time. For example, there are SPS reefs in Okinawa that I snorkeled over in the mid '70's that were full of blues, greens, reds, and yellows that, the last time that I dived on them in 2006, have some color but are tinted more to the brown side. These reefs were on the southern end of the island, closer to population centers and near the airport. Mid-island, I found more softies and fewer staghorns. And, to the less-inhabited north, I could find the stags again, but again more colorful like I'd seen in the 70's.

 

There's plenty of pictures of colorful reefs on the web - not just aquaria. Here's one.

 

http://secondglobe.com/item/the-great-barrier-reef-a-natural-wonder/

 

Keep in mind that, when we dive, the light from the sun is filtered on it's way down, so it's not like the coral is illuminated full-spectrum. If you were to bring a coral up from these depths, it's color and appearance would change as it would begin to absorb and reflect light differently. It's one of the primary reasons why we look at the reef and see one thing through our dive masks, but when we shoot a picture of it (with full-spectrum flash), it often looks completely different (and way less memorable).

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Thanks for clearing that up for the land animals like me! I was beginning to become confused. (Imagine that...)

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

So much information to take in. lol. GoodThread

[matt]

This link was interesting. http://reefbuilders.com/2008/09/03/guide-of-sps-coral-coloration-make-them-more-vivid-bright/

 

It doesn't speak to magnesium, but does address coral colorations and certain factors people might manipulate. I have no idea how accurate it is though. Also, I felt like I saw a longer article or post with much of the same info a ways back...just can't put my finger on that one and google gave me the above instead.

 

Rob, let us know what shifts you see when magnesium levels decline again.

[lutz123]

I'm just following along because I find this interesting.  Corals (SPS) have always intimidated me with all of the dosing, etc that people do to keep everything perfect.

 

Since I have very little first hand knowledge on this, I need to ask...why is there no concern that fiddling with the chemistry would have kind of a domino effect on the mini reef trying to be kept?  Aren't alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium closely related?  I'm only just barely understanding the needs, but it seems like changing one element would cause a cascade effect somewhere else and it could be something other than just the magnesium causing the change - especially since it may have been out of balance in some way or another for awhile.  Are there huge water changes happening too?  And magnesium is a muscle relaxant...don't corals have muscle?  Sometimes learning a little causes WAY too many new questions for me!

 

Then color gets thrown in and I'm in way over my head. 

[paul b]

I have done a lot of diving in all different countries and Paul's pictures absolutely reflect what you eyes see underwater.  It isn't until our flash lights up the frame do you notice colors, your naked eye doesn't.   The only things you notice colors in are the fish

Actually you don't see the colors of the fish either, everything at depth, including my Kelly green eyes appear a drab blue or gray.  The water filters out all other colors and each color disappears at a specific depth.  Reds and yellows go first.

 

 

Yes Paul's post made me think, I am glad he decided to actually chip in after he was done joking.

There is no room for jokes in this serious and austere hobby.  And don't think,  Remember I am making this up as I go along and it is just a thought.  But in the 45+ years I have been diving I got to think a little as I was down there.

Corals in the sea are different from our tanks because they purposely grew in such a way and in such a place to take advantage of whatever color spectrum of light and whatever current they like and be near whatever friends they like and stay a certain distance from enemies.

We stick them in our tanks in such a way as to impress our friends or girlfriends who are much more impressed with out car or hair style than our tanks.  The sea is loaded with sea fans which we can't keep in a tank.  We can't keep them because they always grow perpendicular to the current so each tentacle can get a chance to get a particle of food.  We try to stick them our tank just so the cat has something to look at with no regard to it's well being.  All corals grow a certain shape due to the light and current and when we put it in our tank, it must get annoyed that it grew a certain way for fifty years due to it's location and now we changed it all around.  Of course lighting, Alk, calcium, magnesium, pH, temp, Bud Light, and Viagra are important, (for some people, not me) but corals need more than that which is why they don't live in some tanks no matter what your parameters.  But as to what colors of the spectrum they reflect, that may have nothing to do with their health.  I don't know, I am just putting this out there for conjecture.  I am en electrician and not the God of corals.

But we should not make a statement that corals are healthy because they are colorful.  If they live forever, and grow, they are healthy.

[Origami]

I'm just following along because I find this interesting.  Corals (SPS) have always intimidated me with all of the dosing, etc that people do to keep everything perfect.

 

Since I have very little first hand knowledge on this, I need to ask...why is there no concern that fiddling with the chemistry would have kind of a domino effect on the mini reef trying to be kept?  Aren't alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium closely related?  I'm only just barely understanding the needs, but it seems like changing one element would cause a cascade effect somewhere else and it could be something other than just the magnesium causing the change - especially since it may have been out of balance in some way or another for awhile.  Are there huge water changes happening too?  And magnesium is a muscle relaxant...don't corals have muscle?  Sometimes learning a little causes WAY too many new questions for me!

 

Then color gets thrown in and I'm in way over my head.

Don't be intimidated. Keep the water parameters clean and stable, and you have a very good shot at keeping things alive. Like fish, some corals are a little more picky than others. One size does not fit all.

 

Alk, calcium and magnesium are related, but can be independently controlled within certain guidelines. Cnidarians, of which corals are a part, lack a mesoderm - the embryonic source of true muscle tissue.

[paul b]

 

 

 I need to ask...why is there no concern that fiddling with the chemistry would have kind of a domino effect on the mini reef trying to be kept?  Aren't alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium closely related?  I'm only just barely understanding the needs, but it seems like changing one element would cause a cascade effect somewhere else and it could be something other than just the magnesium causing the change - especially since it may have been out of balance in some way or another for awhile.  Are there huge water changes happening too?  And magnesium is a muscle relaxant...don't corals have muscle?  Sometimes learning a little causes WAY too many new questions for me!

 

I have a huge concern that fiddling with chemistry will have a domino affect which is why I don't fiddle.  I did for years and had the same problems 95% of the people on here have.  Now I don't fiddle.  Seawater is stable, as long as you don't mess with it.  Leave it alone.  Change some water and forget about everything else.  It comes with everything it is supposed to have already mixed in the correct proportions.  In the almost 60 years I have been keeping fish I have never once altered the pH.  I raised almost every fish available and never had any problems until I started adding kalk , testing nitrates, messing with magnesium etc.  Now I add some ice melter and baking soda for the corals and maybe once a year dump in some magnesium (which I probably don't need) and all has been fine for decades.  If you read any of the problem threads, and there are plenty, the tanks with the most problems are the ones where chemistry is tweeked, then, you are correct, there is a cascade effect and everything starts to go downhill.  Virtually everyone on here will dis agree with me, but they will find out eventually that the less you mess with a tank, the better.  It may take 15 or 20 years

[zygote2k]

adding ice melter (calcium) and baking soda (alkalinity) is still tweaking the water chemistry more than just doing water changes.

you add Mg too.

[paul b]

adding ice melter (calcium) and baking soda (alkalinity) is still tweaking the water chemistry more than just doing water changes.

you add Mg too.

OK, you got me.  I do add ice melter and baking soda and once a year Mg.  I probably don't have to as for about 30 years I didn't add anything but I bought this 25 lb bag of ice melter and it didn't get that cold, so I dump it in my tank.  You can call that tweeking I guess.  Of course if I tested for any of those things, that would really be tweeking, I am more or less dumping as opposed to tweeking as I generally forget to do it anyway.

A couple of times a year I also add some Luguls Iodine.  It also is most likely not needed but I bought a large bottle of it about 20 years ago for $25.00 and I want to get my moneys worth.  I would imagine changing water 5 times a year is also tweeking, so I guess I am a tweeker.

But the tweeking I was "incorrectly" referring to was when someone tests, then figures something is slightly off and adds something just to find that now, something else is off so they test again in a never ending cycle.  It is hard to over dose on ice melter or calcium because if you add too much it just won't disolve any more, at least the calcium won't.  It just kind of clumps up the sand.  This reminds me I have to do a little tweeking as I didn't add any ice melter in a week or two.  I need to see if my tank is crashing as they need their ice melter fix.

[Cliff Puckstable]

Any updates on this mag experiment? I am thinking of raising mag to get rid of my gha that doesn't seem to want to go away. My tank is 90% sps. I also have some nems that I'm worried about. I guess my questions did the gha come back after you lowered the mag levels to "normal levels"?

[dave w]

I'm no expert on corals either, but I have a few thoughts to add.  

 

First in the case with fish, brighter colors are a good health indicator, maybe with corals too.  Of course a healthy fish exudes better color to attract a mate which corals don't have to do, but I'd think that for each coral species the color range probably reflects health to some extent.

 

Second, our tanks have higher nitrates than the ocean, so the zooxanthellae in the corals have more nutrients.  As most of us know, there are many types of carbon fixing algae with many different pigments that each thrive better in particular light wavelengths, temps and other parameters.  I think of the autumn leaf colors, once the chlorophyll leaves the leaf, pigments from the other photosynthetics are no longer masked by green so new colors become visible that have always been there.  I've heard that most corals "brown out" under high light conditions because the brown zooxanthellae grow strongly and mask the other pigments just as chlorophyll does in leaves.

 

I've also heard that low wavelengths are important for coral color, but not well provided by our lighting.  I'm no expert on lights or wavelengths, but I hear the deep blue and violet range just above ultraviolet is not well represented in our lights.  I know an aquaculturist who places his normal green mushroom anems deeper in the water to intensify their color.  

 

I don't really know where I'm going with these thoughts, but I thought I'd just chime with a few things.  Most people know more about coral than me.