paul b June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 I don't know everything and I don't want to. For me it is the challenge of the unknown that excites me and the more knowledge I get, the less challenge there is. If we knew how to definately cure ich with say a pill or eliminate hair algae in an hour how boreing would this hobby be. The same thing happened just before fish keeping began in the 1800s. Women in England would collect ferns. And eventually their fern collections grew to include all of the ferns in Europe and there was nothing left to collect. They had all the knowledge there was to know about ferns, how to keep them, how to identify them etc. There was drawings of all the various varieties and their hobby stagnated as the thrill was gone. Then they started walking around in the shallow tide pools and started to collect marine sea creatures. That is how this hobby started. But when we know how to cure everything, keep everything and raise everything there will not be any reason to get excited if your bangai cardinal spawns because it will be a normal, almost daily occurance. When they build powerheads, lights, and skimmers to last forever it will be very boring, for me anyway as I love to experiment with new things. I am sure that any time now there will be no need to dose as they will most likely make ASW with time release nutrients as they do with pills. Nitrates will most likely be eliminmated with some device like a catylic converter that removes piollutants from car exhausts. So I think that if we feel we have a problem with something in our tank, we should view that is an exciting, learning experience and not a harbinger of doom as most people view it. I personally like it when something goes wrong and I can find a way to fix it and discover ways to stop it from happening. I don't just want to view my perfect tank forever just the way it is with no changes and all the same creatures living forever. In my living room there is an 8' painting of an undersea scene. I may as well just stare at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 I thought women in England started collecting buttons after ferns, not marine life. I'll have to go back and check my history books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b June 21, 2013 Author Share June 21, 2013 (edited) Yes, go back and check the history books. I speak on this topic. (of course I make it up as I go along) They really collected Beatle album covers Edited June 21, 2013 by paul b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rhoads June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 I would check your facts. The Romans had salt water ponds in which they would keep certain marine life (waaay before the 1800s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlin June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 i think i like it more when everything is happy and healthy. that would mean more family time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 Yes, go back and check the history books. I speak on this topic. (of course I make it up as I go along) They really collected Beatle album covers I would check your facts. The Romans had salt water ponds in which they would keep certain marine life (waaay before the 1800s). There go the Romans thinking they were bigger than Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rhoads June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 There go the Romans thinking they were bigger than Jesus. LMAO! What does that way about us then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b June 21, 2013 Author Share June 21, 2013 (edited) No my facts are fine, the Chinese kept fish even before the Romans and the Egyptions kept them even earlier. But that was not a hobby and I did say hobby in there someplace. Those people kept fish as a food source but the English kept them as a hobby. Jimlin you are missing the point. I also want everything happy and healthy, But that is not my point and not the reason for this thread. My fish are happy and healthy. A little over 100 years ago all the money in the world along with all the brightest minds couldn't make a machine to allow a human to fly a couple of feet off the ground. Then the Wright Brothers invented a plane and today for $29.00 you can but a remote controlled helicopter that will fly all over your house and there are millions of people flying all over the place. There is no more thrill trying to develop a way to fly. I could design a flying machine with just what I have laying around my workshop.It is the same with our hobby. It is not that I don't want to know everything about it but the longer I stay in it, I know more and am less interested in certain aspects of it. For instance, people ask me all the time why I don't breed fish or why I don't raise the fish that are the result of the spawnings in my tank. It is simple, I have done it enough times that there is no more thrill. The first time I bred and raised blue devils, that was all I could think of, today I could raise them every week if I wanted to, but why would I. There are other more interesting I things could be doing like building rocks or designing a better chiller.I also remember that ich used to be a really big problem for me and at the time there was no information so I spent a lot of time experimenting and losing fish. It was disheartening for me but at the same time, thrilling as I enjoy the experimenting. It's like when I do a crossword puzzle, I don't want to finish it or to have someone give me the answers. If I finish it, it was to easy and if someone gives me the answers, I would have no life as that would just be copying what someone told me.My fish no longer get ich as I have found out after almost 60 years at this how to prevent it. So ich is no longer a concern and I don't get any thrill from it as it is a non issue. It is the same with hair algae and almost all maladies. I used to stay awake nights thinking of ways to remedy these "problems" but now I realize that was my most enjoyable years in the hobby. When I used to go to a store or wholesaler I would always see something new and couldn't wait to get it in my tank. Now I can't even think of an animal that I have not kept at least once so now when I go to a store, I know I will probably not see something new and will settle on another angel, tang or gobi that I have had many times before.I still love the hobby and relish when I see something new that I can think about, like my pistal shrimps living together and hosting two different gobi's. If they spawn, that would be a first for my tank and I look forward to it. Edited June 21, 2013 by paul b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 I completely understand that excitement. I like to try new things in my tank within reason. I would like to one day say that I have kept just about everything I find in an store in my living room Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rhoads June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 No my facts are fine, the Chinese kept fish even before the Romans and the Egyptions kept them even earlier. But that was not a hobby and I did say hobby in there someplace. Those people kept fish as a food source but the English kept them as a hobby. Wealthy Romans most certainly did keep fish as a hobby. Here is an Advanced Aquarist article that states the same: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/7/aquaculture Please note the following excerpt: The apparent stocking of pet fish (if not the frequent use of costly building materials and decorum) suggests that these structures were above all else luxury items. As a matter of course, apocryphal stories facetiously affirm that fish were not only kept for enjoyment, but that they were oftentimes highly valued. Antonia (mother of emperor Claudius) attached earrings to her favorite eel; the orator Quintus Hortensius is said to have wept over the death of a most prized specimen. Clearly at least some Romans were saltwater hobbyists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 When they build powerheads, lights, and skimmers to last forever it will be very boring, for me anyway as I love to experiment with new things. Somehow, Paul, I doubt that you'll ever be bored even if our equipment was built to last forever (which, it never will). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b June 21, 2013 Author Share June 21, 2013 Wealthy Romans most certainly did keep fish as a hobby OK, but did you know any of those wealthy Romans that kept fish as a Hobby? OK maybe they did, but that was not the point of my thread which like many threads is just there to spark a discussion as it obviousely did. (I am Sicialin but now I know about the Romans fishkeeping) I will say one other thing about the link you posted. I am not a writer, marine biologist, scientist or researcher, I am a hobbiest like most people here, and yet virtualy every article I have sent to a magazine publisher or online forum was published on my word. I have no credentials but no one ever asked me for any. So If me, who is certainly not qualified due to lack of any schooling on this topic can publish "facts" about this hobby, anyone can. I am not saying your information about the Romans is wrong, I am sure it is a fact, I am also just stating a fact. Now I need to find those old Roman magazines so I can learn something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b June 21, 2013 Author Share June 21, 2013 Somehow, Paul, I doubt that you'll ever be bored even if our equipment was built to last forever (which, it never will). Some of my powerheads are aproaching 20 years old that is almost forever when you are my age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rhoads June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 Now I need to find those old Roman magazines so I can learn something new. LMAO! Pass them my way when you are done. From what I read today in that Adv. Aq article the Romans were better at this than I am even with all my high technology! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 The burdens of maintaining a reef tank are what make keeping a reef tank a hobby. I looked up various definitions of "hobby", and the results basically amount to a hobby being a regularly undertaken activity done for pleasure. So in the context of this thread, I interpret that to mean that some reef aquarium hobbyists draw pleasure from the challenges presented by their attempts to maintain a healthy reef aquarium. I agree with Paul about the picture on the living room wall versus a real aquarium that demands both physical and mental activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b June 21, 2013 Author Share June 21, 2013 the Romans were better at this than I am even with all my high technology! I think I have a few Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k June 21, 2013 Share June 21, 2013 But how do you know that your fish are actually thriving? They're animals and they obviously thrive in the wild but rarely in captivity because fishkeeping is still relatively crude. Rampant diseases, power failures, negligence, and ignorance kill nearly 50% of all imported ornamental fish. If they make the 100% failsafe aquarium, then we should strive to keep all of our animals in devices such as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b June 21, 2013 Author Share June 21, 2013 (edited) But how do you know that your fish are actually thriving? They're animals and they obviously thrive in the wild but rarely in captivity because fishkeeping is still relatively crude. Rampant diseases, power failures, negligence, and ignorance kill nearly 50% of all imported ornamental fish. If they make the 100% failsafe aquarium, then we should strive to keep all of our animals in devices such as that. They are thriving if they are spawning. Only the healthiest fish can spawn and if you have paired fish that are not spawning, they are not as healthy as you believe them to be. All healthy, paired fish spawn. Not tangs or most egg scatterers or schooling fish as they don't form mated pairs but most damsels including clowns, pipefish, seahorses, and gobies will spawn in a tank. And if they are spawning and living ten or twenty years, that is all you could ask for. If your fish die in a few years, there is something wrong with your tank, not the fish. Virtually all fish live for at least ten years except if they are in the seahorse family or some smaller clown gobies that should at least live five years. Clownfish live over 20 years and tangs live about as long. As for diseases that is also our fault as fish should hardly ever get sick. If they are in spawning condition as I said, they are almost immune from most diseases. They only get in that condition by eating the right food. But this thread is not about that. Edited June 21, 2013 by paul b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite June 23, 2013 Share June 23, 2013 (edited) Rather than debate the livestock, it would be nice to hear responses to the real thread topic. I'd like to know how many people would be happier to be able to look at their tank without ever lifting a finger or having to think twice about it, and how many would find it less alluring if there were no challenges or work involved. I personally like that I have my tank issues to think about whenever I am either bored or trying to not think about something else. Edited June 23, 2013 by treesprite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b June 23, 2013 Author Share June 23, 2013 I personally like that I have my tank issues to think about whenever I am either bored or trying to not think about something else. I also like fooling around with my tank but I never think of it as work. I had a job for 40 years and don't need another one, everything I do on my tank is for enjoyment because if it becomes work, I drain it out, give away the fish, and throw the thing in the garbage. To me it is a hobby and a hobby is fun, if not, it is not a hobby but an expensive job. You could try stamp collecting, they just sit there and wonder how sticky they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rhoads June 23, 2013 Share June 23, 2013 Not to inflate our egos, but I always felt that this hobby was for those who were intellectually curious, and natural problem solvers. I like the fact that this hobby presents challenges if it didn't I would have lost interest long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b June 23, 2013 Author Share June 23, 2013 Not to inflate our egos, but I always felt that this hobby was for those who were intellectually curious, and natural problem solvers. I like the fact that this hobby presents challenges if it didn't I would have lost interest long ago. I absolutely agree. As I said, if you think of it as work, why would you do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime June 23, 2013 Share June 23, 2013 I enjoy the fact that I get to create an ecosystem where I have some control. That and the little things facinate me, like nems splitting, or my skunk shrimp cleaning fish, or my algae snails eating the seaweed I put in for my tang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b June 23, 2013 Author Share June 23, 2013 (edited) Today I went out on my boat and anchored off a tide pool at low tide. I collected a few thousand amphipods, shrimp, snails and mud. This is part of my hobby and brings another hobby into it, boating. This stuff was dumped into my tank as I feel it is healthful.\ Here is an amphipod video of a normal 5 minute haul. I love this stuff. Edited June 23, 2013 by paul b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM June 24, 2013 Share June 24, 2013 I am always surprised that the water just off the coast of Long Island is clean enough to put in your tank. Shouldn't it be full of fertilizer runoff, pharmaceuticals, industrial solvents, and shredded toilet paper? We go to Rehoboth Beach in Deleware each summer, should I scrape up some of that beach for the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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