Oh joy! "Black spots" on tangs

[Jan]

I guess come hook or by crook I'm going to learn how to treat everything there is to treat in fish in this hobby. Not sure if it's black ich, hook worms or fluke. They are on my tangs. Only 1 or two spots here and there the size of a pin head. One looks like a dot with a thread. This SUCKS!!!!!

Edited July 10, 2012 by Jan

[zygote2k]

I hope that one day your catalog of and remedies for every known fish disease will be a pinned thread on WAMAS.

[Coral Hind]

In the display or in QT? Were these QT and medicated before?

[Jan]

Not an aspiration for me.

 

I hope that one day your catalog of and remedies for every known fish disease will be a pinned thread on WAMAS.

[Sharkey18]

pics?

[treesprite]

Geez Jan! You need fish health insurance.

[Jan]

In DT. These tangs have been in the tank for months. Never medicated. Never had to medicate. Everything else looks fine. I'm taking all fish out and putting them in hypo. Then treating with formalin, if I can find some locally. Then I'm going fallow for 6-8 weeks.

 

I dosed the tank with Prazipro and ich attack. I dose Kordons ich attack every now and then. I dosed prazipro for my yellow eye kole and an anthia that had white stringy poop. Both meds are reef safe. Everything was fine except my cleaner shrimp. They started getting lethargic after the 2nd treatment so I ran carbon and did a water change. One of my cleaners ended up dead and the other is doing fine now. The Anthia pooped a very long white string. It took hours for it to come out. A parasite, no doubt.

 

Several days ago my yellow eye kole developed what looks like a ball in it's belly and is becoming emaciated. It eats but it's losing weight. Yesterday I noticed two dark spots on it. I also noticed that my purple tang had a large white patch on its face. It looked like a large scrape. Flashing? I haven't seen it flashing. Haven't seen any of the fish flashing. This morning the large white patch was gone. It was a large area that went from under its eye to past its gill on the right side. Today the large scrape mark is gone. I then notice two small black spots on the Caribbean blue tang and one on the sailfin tang. The kole tang wobbles when it swims and is constantly going to the cleaner and opening it's mouth to get cleaned. Parasites?

 

I've got a 29 gallon hypo QT set up in the basement and a 20 gallon QT housing 2 Genicanthus that I'm treating with copper and formalin for ich. I got these from DD along with the male watanabei that died. I also have a 5 gallon QT with another Genicanthus that I've been observing for 2 weeks now. He's doing great! I'm knocking that tank down. They'll all go in the 29 gallon hypo at 1.010; all except the mandarins and engineer goby. I have to do more research on whether or not to treat these fish and how to treat. The madarins also need copepods.

 

I've been reading, researching and looking at pics most of the day. Mostly researching treatment modalities. I may need help getting all the fish out of my tank. I'm going to dip them as I pull them out in FW then place them in the hypo QT. Is there anyone near by with free time on their hands that can help me out?

 

In the display or in QT? Were these QT and medicated before?

Edited July 11, 2012 by Jan

[Jan]

LOL, I need a new hobby, I think.

 

Geez Jan! You need fish health insurance.

[flooddc]

Again! Sorry to hear about it. Did you add any fish/invert to your DT recently? I have'n't had much experience with marine fish yet, but with freshwater fish. I usually treat freshwater fish with pure salt (1 lbs per 100gal water). I wonder if it works the other way around. Best of luck.

[Jan]

Yes. ricordeas, St Thomas mushrooms and a few fish. Those fish are all fine. It's the tangs. the kole tang was losing weight before any of the new fish were introduced. The ricordeas and St. Thomas were all dipped in revive. I'm thinking hyposalinity would be equal to the salt Tx for FW fish.

 

Stress is a killer!

 

Again! Sorry to hear about it. Did you add any fish/invert to your DT recently? I have'n't had much experience with marine fish yet, but with freshwater fish. I usually treat freshwater fish with pure salt (1 lbs per 100gal water). I wonder if it works the other way around. Best of luck.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Jan

[wogga]

LOL, I need a new hobby, I think.

 

 

 

I heartily disagree. Just change the way you do this hobby (AND give yourself an excuse to get another tank):

 

Keep the reef fish-free PERMANENTLY (ok maybe keep the mandarins ). I would be willing to bet that the system as a whole would be a LOT more balanced for it, and your coral growth even more vigorous than it already is.

 

Get another tank and go FOWLR for all the fish.

 

Never buy fish again. Tell yourself that if you want a new fish, you have to breed the parents, raise the fry and rear to adulthood. You'll never introduce disease into your system again.

 

Q.E.D.

[Jan]

No, no ,no more tanks!!! I'm down sizing so we can put the house on the market. Well not my tank, but I'm not getting a larger tank....not in this house .

 

I heartily disagree. Just change the way you do this hobby (AND give yourself an excuse to get another tank):

 

Keep the reef fish-free PERMANENTLY (ok maybe keep the mandarins ). I would be willing to bet that the system as a whole would be a LOT more balanced for it, and your coral growth even more vigorous than it already is.

 

Get another tank and go FOWLR for all the fish.

 

Never buy fish again. Tell yourself that if you want a new fish, you have to breed the parents, raise the fry and rear to adulthood. You'll never introduce disease into your system again.

 

Q.E.D.

[zygote2k]

how many fish do you have? could they be getting sick due to overcrowding or incompatibility?

[davelin315]

Jan, I think you need to leave well enough alone and get your tank rebalanced. I think that most of the diseases you're getting are ones that are probably already in your system and getting all of the fish out and putting them through treatment may end up hurting them more than it helps them. When fish get stressed out all kinds of things can happen opportunistically. Many times the diseases and pathogens in the water will go fallow or the fish will be strong enough to combat the disease if left alone. This isn't always the case, but sounds like you've had a pretty healthy system but keep on tinkering, as we all do, with the fish population. Perhaps it's time to leave well enough alone and let the diseases run their course. If you've got one or two dots and they fall off sooner rather than later, it might be that your fish are able to deal with them. I had black spot in my tank but the fish were able to recover and after the initial bout I never saw it again.

[treesprite]

I tend to follow Dave's way of thinking, which is to leave the fish in the tank and observe. My fish have gotten ich on at least 2 occasions and got better in the DT with no treatment at all. Then again, your fish are getting types of symptoms I've never seen and seeing them in my tank might make me over-react.

[Jan]

I don't know if it's black spot disease or hook worms. I'll watch for another day or so. thanks.

 

Jan, I think you need to leave well enough alone and get your tank rebalanced. I think that most of the diseases you're getting are ones that are probably already in your system and getting all of the fish out and putting them through treatment may end up hurting them more than it helps them. When fish get stressed out all kinds of things can happen opportunistically. Many times the diseases and pathogens in the water will go fallow or the fish will be strong enough to combat the disease if left alone. This isn't always the case, but sounds like you've had a pretty healthy system but keep on tinkering, as we all do, with the fish population. Perhaps it's time to leave well enough alone and let the diseases run their course. If you've got one or two dots and they fall off sooner rather than later, it might be that your fish are able to deal with them. I had black spot in my tank but the fish were able to recover and after the initial bout I never saw it again.

[Jan]

Understood. White ich is fairly easy to detect and treat.

 

You should never over-react, Forrest. Always try to keep a level head about these things. That's why I read a lot. I read until I'm comfortable and confident in the direction I need to go. I put a plan of action together and then I put it into play. I post to share my experiences. Keep reading so if your fish do show any of these signs and symptoms at least you'll know which direction to take. Over-reacting never gets us anywhere.

 

I tend to follow Dave's way of thinking, which is to leave the fish in the tank and observe. My fish have gotten ich on at least 2 occasions and got better in the DT with no treatment at all. Then again, your fish are getting types of symptoms I've never seen and seeing them in my tank might make me over-react.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Jan

[Jan]

22 in a 156 with a 60 or 70 gallon sump. 2 genicanthus in 20 gallon hospital tank and 1 gencanthus in a 5 gallon QT. My parameteres, as of yesterday, are perfect; 0 ammonia, 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites, Ph 8.2, DKH 9, phosphates .25, Sg 1.026, calcium 480 and temp 77-79 degrees. I dose 2 part every other day. My skimmer is awesome. It pulls really dark thick skimmate. I clean it once a week. the UV sterilizer at 57 watts keeps water crystal clear. I run GFO in one reactor and carbon in another. No issues with stability of any kind. The tank did run without lights for several days because of the power outage. I feed a lot of different things but always half a sheet of nori once a day for the tangs. Water changes every 5-10 days and I clean out the sump when I change water.

 

Overcrowded? I don't think so but thats relative to filtration. I have plenty of filtration and flow. I research before I add fish and choose all fish that get along. I'm very careful about that. Only had to get rid of two fish that were eating my LPS.

 

 

how many fish do you have? could they be getting sick due to overcrowding or incompatibility?

Edited July 11, 2012 by Jan

[Jan]

Between coordinating the GB's I've also been dealing with fish issues in my DT. I've been up all night reading what I'm seeing and observing in my fish. My fish definately have parasites. I've narrowed it down to Turbellarian Paravortex and/or Monogenetic trematodes. I'm looking for more cleaner shrimp before I stress these fish out more by pulling them out.

 

My yellow eye kole tang needs to come out. It's in bad shape. One of my female angels looks like something is burrowing under her scales. She may have to come out as well. They are too fast and great hiders for me to catch the way I've caught other fish. My tangs have a few, maybe 2 or 3, flat dull brown/black spots that come and go on various parts of their body. The spots all vary in size. All the fish are eating like pigs and are very active. All the other fish look great. I see no infestation.

 

What I've read is that these parasites can come in on fish, snails and even shrimp. Methylene blue mixed in FW dip with Ph to match DT is the preferred Tx to avoid getting them into your DT. I've added new fish and they show no signs of anything. I have two new fish that arrived seperately in QT. These never never made it into my DT. They're being treated for white ich with formalin and coppr at half strentgh.

 

I keep racking my brain trying to figure out how, when, etc.. for the fish in my DT. I have to let go of that because it keeps me stuck.

 

If cleaners aren't going to do the trick then I have no choice but to do a FW dip for the two that are badly infested and then place them in hyposalinity for possible Tx with Formalin or copper. Hopefully with the addition of more cleaners and a really good cleaning of my system the fishes strong immune system will pull them through.

 

So if I'm a little late in getting back to you about a GB or if I just update and don;t reply to you via PM, please excuse me. I'm probably busy dealing with these issues.

[SunWyrm]

I don't know if this will help at all Jan, but my little orange shoulder had a bad infestation of black spots a few months ago. I fed him well and checked his water quality often and the spots went away fairly quickly on their own (about 2 months or so).

 

Edit: In case it hasn't been said, I've been told to not medicate with hyposalinity. Copper and other medications tend to not work as directed. I'm not sure if this has to do with dosage or whatnot.

Edited July 12, 2012 by YiatzOfEden

[Steve175]

Jan, I think you need to leave well enough alone and get your tank rebalanced. I think that most of the diseases you're getting are ones that are probably already in your system and getting all of the fish out and putting them through treatment may end up hurting them more than it helps them. When fish get stressed out all kinds of things can happen opportunistically. Many times the diseases and pathogens in the water will go fallow or the fish will be strong enough to combat the disease if left alone. This isn't always the case, but sounds like you've had a pretty healthy system but keep on tinkering, as we all do, with the fish population. Perhaps it's time to leave well enough alone and let the diseases run their course. If you've got one or two dots and they fall off sooner rather than later, it might be that your fish are able to deal with them. I had black spot in my tank but the fish were able to recover and after the initial bout I never saw it again.

 

A doc speaking here (not a vet, but reasonably schooled nonetheless): "First do no harm". I too, regardless of symptoms, usually provide a stable, low stress environment (with no toxins, or Abx, or force feeding, or poking) and wait it out.

[Sharkey18]

Hey Jan I am right near by if you need help catching / moving fish around, however I m also in the mode of wait it out....

 

I do think your tank might be a bit overcrowded. It is not just a matter of filtration. Fish need enough room to have a hide out, a place to sleep, enough room to swim without invading another fishes space etc. If they are crowded it will cause stress and stress will result in illness.

 

I think 22 in a 156 is pushing it. Just a thought.

[Jan]

I don't have a bad infestation. All the fish are staying put except for maybe two that look really bad.

 

After reading pages and pages of Q&A about these parasites with answers from the WWM crew, Methylene blue is safe and the prefered medication to use with hyposalinty. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm

 

I don't know that copper isn't safe with hyposalinity. I've got two fish that Im treating with half strength coppersafe and formalin as directed by the superviosr of the coral farm for divers Den. This is how he treats his fish. The fish have been in QT for two weeks and they're doing great. The male watanabei was a whole other story. He came with many many issues.

 

I believe It is the toxicity of full strength copper that may be too stressful when used with a FW dip. That's what makes sense to me, but I don;t know this for sure. I'm not considering using copper with a FW dip. I am considering Methylene blue with FW dip for the two that are badly infested. Thanks.

 

I don't know if this will help at all Jan, but my little orange shoulder had a bad infestation of black spots a few months ago. I fed him well and checked his water quality often and the spots went away fairly quickly on their own (about 2 months or so).

 

Edit: In case it hasn't been said, I've been told to not medicate with hyposalinity. Copper and other medications tend to not work as directed. I'm not sure if this has to do with dosage or whatnot.

[Jan]

That's what I'm doing with the majority of the fish. I'd never poke or prod the fish. "Do no harm" words that I live by! I rarely do harm. I put a lot of thought and research into whatever I do before I do it. Especially if it's something that isn't often done by a hobbyist. A large part of my background in Pre-hospital Emergency Care and critical thinking skills comes into play when when I observe, diagnose, research and treat in this hobby. Those skills also take away the fear factor when having to do something not so common when treating. The beauty is all the research I can do beforehand. There's no golden hour that I need to work within. So I hear you and can relate but on a much lower scale. Thanks for the reminder.

 

I put a lot of thought into whether or not I should attempt force feeding the male Watanabei after Dave mentioned it. I researched it and viewed a few videos to make sure I was doing it right. My only regret was that I could not sedate him. Not sedating added more stress, but after the first two force feedings the fish perked up and looked much better. FF a large fish like this was as easy as using a combitube. I'd do it again, if I had to. That fish was starving. He came with many many other issues. I had to try to get him healthy so he could combat everything else. What it all boiled down to with that fish is he just wasn't meant to be in captivity.

 

I like using Kordons Ick attack if I think I see an ick spot before any harsh medications because I believe the fish should try to fight off whatever it is they are afflicted with. One of the reasons I've chosen to make my own food full of fresh veggies, nori, fresh garlic, etc.. is because of the benefits it has in boosting my livestocks immune system. Ick Attack is an all natural herbel remedy. I highly recommend it before using copper.

 

 

 

A doc speaking here (not a vet, but reasonably schooled nonetheless): "First do no harm". I too, regardless of symptoms, usually provide a stable, low stress environment (with no toxins, or Abx, or force feeding, or poking) and wait it out.

[Jan]

I'll let you know if I decide to attempt to take the two fish out.

 

I agree with all except that my system is overcrowded. It isn't. My fish have all that you've described and more. Most importantly they are all compatable, which is just as important if not more than everything else you mentioned. One of the reasons I got rid of so many larger fish was to make room for these smaller ones. I wanted more movement and color. The fish I have now are not prone to getting as large as a hippo tang. The majority only grow to 3" max. The larger ones to only 6" max. the exception is the caribbean blue. He can get very large.

 

Thanks, Laura.

 

 

Hey Jan I am right near by if you need help catching / moving fish around, however I m also in the mode of wait it out....

 

I do think your tank might be a bit overcrowded. It is not just a matter of filtration. Fish need enough room to have a hide out, a place to sleep, enough room to swim without invading another fishes space etc. If they are crowded it will cause stress and stress will result in illness.

 

I think 22 in a 156 is pushing it. Just a thought.