Prime's 75 gallon build

[onux20]

Stick with the Tek T5's..

+1 For the cost, heat generation, and bulb combinations, I dont think you can beat T5's.

Edited September 13, 2011 by onux20

[Chad]

That doesn't make sense to me, but my advice is to keep the same sized tubing the pump outputs to. ie: If there is a 1" output on the pump, use 1" tubing. Increasing the tubing size from the output on the pump will increase head pressure. Same is true for decreasing the tube size, barring any wyes, Ts, or manifolds.

 

True, but the value is small and is less than the the additional head loss. Head pressure and head loss are not the same thing. Head pressure (also static pressure) is the amount of pressure generated by a pump at a given head loss in the system. Head loss is a convienent term that equates to both vertical distance, friction, and general flow disturbances to a distance. Head pressure is dependent upon head loss.

 

Frictional losses go up exponentially with the reduction of diameter. To put this into head loss with an average home aquarist flow rate of ~600 gph, with 3/4" piping you will see a pressure loss of ~1.8 ft/10ft whereas with 1.5" piping you would see a pressure loss of ~0.07 ft/10ft (basically a 100 gph loss on the average aquarists eheim 1262). True that the additional of adapters will increase head loss (usually around .5 ft or less each depending on diameter and flow rate); however, the overall effect of increasing pipe diameter is to lower head loss in the system.

 

To compound this effect, frictional losses also go down if velocity goes down (by an exponential value), since velocity goes down with an inceased cross sectional area, you lose less to friction that way too.

 

If you split the tubing, you can keep the same size tube if you want, but that will increase the head pressure as you'll effectively double the amount of water being pushed up the plumbing after the split.

 

This isn't accurate. In a closed system with an incompressible fluid (water), pressure at a given depth is equal regardless of where it is in the system. If you divide flow into two pipes, the velocity will go down, but the head pressure will stay the same. Actually, with the slower velocity, there would be less head loss (although the addition of the fittings might make it not worth while depending on how it was done).

 

So the closer you can get to matching the cross sectional area of the original tube with the combined cross sectional area of the smaller tubes, the less head pressure you'll have.

 

I think you may be confusing lower velocity with losses. When you go to a larger diameter, velocity goes down for a given flow rate. However, if higher velocity is desired, you can always decrease the diameter at the output.

 

Also, I highly recommend using a distributor or wye / true-wye instead of a T.

 

Good recommendation from a efficiency standpoint, it adds less head loss to the system.

 

In most cases, I don't think it is worth it to go through a head loss type calculation for our systems... but since the difference between 3/4" and 1.5" piping is so great, it is the one case where I think it makes sense to consider.

[Integral9]

I don't want to hijack this thread any more than we have so I won't address all your points, but I think some clarification is in order here so we don't confuse this guy anymore than we have. Sorry.

 

I should have stated that my definition of "head pressure" (in my mind at least) is the weight of the volume of water pushing against the pump. So my bad on that term definition mistake. My engineering track didn't include fluid dynamics; i was more about Newtonian physics, magnetism, electricity and waves. One thing common to all pumps, whether they are pressure rated or flow rated is: more water above the pump = less output from the pump. To that end, my understanding of returns pumps is based on opposing forces (gravity vs the pump); I'd include friction but my understanding is that water is more of a lubricant than anything and barring hard turns like 90s, frictional losses should be relatively tiny.

 

I don't believe a return pump operates in a "closed system". I think you would have to plumb the intake of the pump directly into the side of the tank for that to be true. Having the sump and siphon breaks in between give the water the chance to release it's pressure and so the pressure from the tank isn't on the intake of the pump, only the pressure from the water in the sump.

 

 

In most cases, I don't think it is worth it to go through a head loss type calculation for our systems... but since the difference between 3/4" and 1.5" piping is so great, it is the one case where I think it makes sense to consider.

 

yeah, you are right there. I think anytime you skip a pipe size, it's worth considering.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Integral9

[Chad]

I agree with your hijacking sentiments, and I apologize to the OP.

 

I have additional thoughts, and I think this is interesting discussion (one of my favorite topics ) and would be happy to move to PM (with your engineering background we could get quite technical or drop it, whichever you prefer.

[.OptimusPrime.]

No apologies necessary I understood most of what is being said

 

Although I am a bit confused now....

 

All I know is at least :

 

4' vertical

 

2 returns with Loc Line and Schedule 80 bulkheads

 

1 - true wye tee (as suggested)

 

1 - ball valve on the return before the T to regulate flow

 

2 - union couplings before / after valve

 

I plan on using at least a foot of flex tubing to cut down on vibrations or might plumb the whole thing with flex???

 

The LFS is messing with me about getting holes drilled 2 weeks in a row now.....looks like I'll just have to order the bits and DIM....

 

I guess it still boils down to what size should the bulkheads be in relation to the piping.... I assume the would be the same unless I downsized at the tee???

 

2 x (insert diameter here)"....let the debate continue lol

Edited September 13, 2011 by Coral Hind
removed the d word

[Integral9]

I plan on using at least a foot of flex tubing to cut down on vibrations or might plumb the whole thing with flex???

 

The LFS is messing with me about getting holes drilled 2 weeks in a row now.....looks like I'll just have to order the bits and DIM....

 

I guess it still boils down to what size should the bulkheads be in relation to the piping.... I assume the would be the same unless I downsized at the tee???

 

2 x (insert diameter here)"....let the debate continue lol

Flex tubing isn't necessary. I used it on my 55 and found that just having about a foot of it was better than doing the whole thing in flex. I like to have clean plumbing and flex makes that difficult.

 

Here's a vid demoing drillng an aquarium.

start the drill at full speed before you contact the glass. with a firm grip (you do not want the bit to skip across the glass) start at an angle to set the bit into a groove then slowly tilt the bit upright and let the weight of the drill push through the glass. Do not push on it. It will take several minutes to get through the glass. Also, you will want to clamp a peice of wood on the back side to reduce "blow out". If you can't do that, then at least tape the back side. Remember, you are grinding through the glass, not cutting it. When you start to break though, the water will drain out of where you are cutting, so you need figure out how to keep water around the bit as best you can. do not let the bit heat up.

 

You can downsize the lines at the tee or just after w/ a reducer coupling. I prefer 1/2" return lines in my tank. Some people like the 3/4". I suppose it depends on how big your tank is and how much you are pushing through the plumbing. Somewhere there is a chart listing the max flow through plumbing by pipe size... hmm... here it is: http://flexpvc.com/W...nPipeSize.shtml

 

bulk heads are usually the same size as the tubing going in / out of them.

 

make a diagram of you plumbing plan and post it up, so we can get a better idea of what you are thinking.

[.OptimusPrime.]

Flex tubing isn't necessary. I used it on my 55 and found that just having about a foot of it was better than doing the whole thing in flex. I like to have clean plumbing and flex makes that difficult.

 

Here's a vid demoing drillng an aquarium.

start the drill at full speed before you contact the glass. with a firm grip (you do not want the bit to skip across the glass) start at an angle to set the bit into a groove then slowly tilt the bit upright and let the weight of the drill push through the glass. Do not push on it. It will take several minutes to get through the glass. Also, you will want to clamp a peice of wood on the back side to reduce "blow out". If you can't do that, then at least tape the back side. Remember, you are grinding through the glass, not cutting it. When you start to break though, the water will drain out of where you are cutting, so you need figure out how to keep water around the bit as best you can. do not let the bit heat up.

 

You can downsize the lines at the tee or just after w/ a reducer coupling. I prefer 1/2" return lines in my tank. Some people like the 3/4". I suppose it depends on how big your tank is and how much you are pushing through the plumbing. Somewhere there is a chart listing the max flow through plumbing by pipe size... hmm... here it is: http://flexpvc.com/W...nPipeSize.shtml

 

bulk heads are usually the same size as the tubing going in / out of them.

 

make a diagram of you plumbing plan and post it up, so we can get a better idea of what you are thinking.

 

 

Thanks for the info. I've seen the videos. It seems pretty easy. Just have to get over the nerves.

 

Im hoping the drill bits treesprite has are for schedule 80s and not the regular ABS. *fingers crossed*

 

Heres a quick paint job i did before leaving for work. It isnt the cleanest so apologies.

 

 

Does anyone have an pictures of their plumbing for the return bulkheads???

 

Also, when I drill this thing..should all the holes be on the line?? or should one be higher than the other??

 

Is the general rule of thumb 3-5" away from both the top and the side of the glass?

 

Also, is it possible to drill a siphon hole when the returns are in the tank?? Would I drill into the loc line???

 

 

 

 

[Integral9]

Thanks for the info. I've seen the videos. It seems pretty easy. Just have to get over the nerves.

yeah, it's a little scary drilling a hole into a $500 tank.

 

Does anyone have an pictures of their plumbing for the return bulkheads???

You can check the hole saws against the bulkheads before you drill the tank. fwiw: I used sched 40 bulkheads. I'm not sure why people are using the sched. 80 now.

 

I have my plumbing diagram in my tank build @ http://www.wamas.org...tegration-room/ Also done in paint.

 

Also, when I drill this thing..should all the holes be on the line?? or should one be higher than the other??

I'm not sure what you mean by "on the line". But, depending on how you are going to get water in the drains (via a 90 or overflow box) you will need to leave enough room to allow the water to rise up and over the 90s / overflow box. For my tank, I like the water line just above the bottom edge of the top frame (so I don't see the water line). So I measured the hole placement by putting my 90s up to that line and marking it on the glass w/ a sharpy (wipes off easily). I put the returns over the back wall of my tank, so I had less holes to drill.

 

You might want to consider making 2 holes for 2 drain lines. A fish or algae can clog up a drain line and that can cause real problems, so it's nice to have a backup drain line.

 

Is the general rule of thumb 3-5" away from both the top and the side of the glass?

I forget where I read this, but the edge of the holes should be at least 1-1/2 times the diameter of the hole from the edge of the glass or you will reduce the integrity of the tank. eg: the edge of a 1" hole should be at least 1.5" from the edge of the glass. So that would put the center mark for the hole 2" away from the edge.

 

Also, is it possible to drill a siphon hole when the returns are in the tank?? Would I drill into the loc line???

yes and yes, just below the water line. Shut off the pumps before you do it and just do your best to capture the plastic bits into a net or something, but I don't think they will foul up the tank if you miss a couple. You could also take the loc-line out of the tank before drilling the holes.

 

Also, I don't think you need the union between the ball valve and wye. Not sure what purpose that would serve. And I don't think you don't need 45s on the drain lines.

[.OptimusPrime.]

yeah, it's a little scary drilling a hole into a $500 tank.

 

 

You can check the hole saws against the bulkheads before you drill the tank. fwiw: I used sched 40 bulkheads. I'm not sure why people are using the sched. 80 now.

 

I have my plumbing diagram in my tank build @ http://www.wamas.org...tegration-room/ Also done in paint.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "on the line". But, depending on how you are going to get water in the drains (via a 90 or overflow box) you will need to leave enough room to allow the water to rise up and over the 90s / overflow box. For my tank, I like the water line just above the bottom edge of the top frame (so I don't see the water line). So I measured the hole placement by putting my 90s up to that line and marking it on the glass w/ a sharpy (wipes off easily). I put the returns over the back wall of my tank, so I had less holes to drill.

 

You might want to consider making 2 holes for 2 drain lines. A fish or algae can clog up a drain line and that can cause real problems, so it's nice to have a backup drain line.

 

 

I forget where I read this, but the edge of the holes should be at least 1-1/2 times the diameter of the hole from the edge of the glass or you will reduce the integrity of the tank. eg: the edge of a 1" hole should be at least 1.5" from the edge of the glass. So that would put the center mark for the hole 2" away from the edge.

 

 

yes and yes, just below the water line. Shut off the pumps before you do it and just do your best to capture the plastic bits into a net or something, but I don't think they will foul up the tank if you miss a couple. You could also take the loc-line out of the tank before drilling the holes.

 

Also, I don't think you need the union between the ball valve and wye. Not sure what purpose that would serve. And I don't think you don't need 45s on the drain lines.

 

 

$500 holy crap!!! LOL

 

I should have said do all the holes need to be in line with each other...as in not staggered and in a straight line... across the back of the tank?? or should the return holes be higher/lower than the drain?

 

I have an internal overflow box with a hole already in the back for the drain line. I plan on making a top for the box so as to not run into that problem of having it get clogged. (hopefully) box is only 6in L and the hole is already in the center..should I make a new box that is longer and has 2 holes?

 

My returns will be the through the bulkheads so I don't have the option of drill the pvc like I would if it was over the top. Tank isn't even filled yet so i should have no problems drilling the loc line before hand.

 

Are you saying to just have a piece of pipe go from the overflow drain straight down to the sump?? I don't see how thats possible, unless you're suggestion I swap the return and skimmer sections

 

 

 

[Integral9]

I should have said do all the holes need to be in line with each other...as in not staggered and in a straight line... across the back of the tank?? or should the return holes be higher/lower than the drain?

I think that's a matter of personal preference. Typically bulkheads are below the water line, but how low you put them is really up to you and how you want the flow of your tank to go. Most people have their return lines near the top and point them forward. Some people plumb them through the sand bed or up through the bottom (only possible on acryllic tanks I believe) and point them up

 

I have an internal overflow box with a hole already in the back for the drain line. I plan on making a top for the box so as to not run into that problem of having it get clogged. (hopefully) box is only 6in L and the hole is already in the center..should I make a new box that is longer and has 2 holes?

A cover on the box should be enough.

 

My returns will be the through the bulkheads so I don't have the option of drill the pvc like I would if it was over the top. Tank isn't even filled yet so i should have no problems drilling the loc line before hand.

 

Are you saying to just have a piece of pipe go from the overflow drain straight down to the sump?? I don't see how thats possible, unless you're suggestion I swap the return and skimmer sections

 

No I was suggesting you could use 90s instead, which might be better or not. It takes 2 45s to make a 90, so if you have to turn 90 on a drain line, it's ok to use a 90. It won't impede flow.

[.OptimusPrime.]

Thanks for the input. Taking out the 45's and putting in a 90s

 

Went ahead and ordered the loc line parts and such.

 

Got my 75GPH RO/DI unit today. Along with my refractometer.

 

Also, how long without light can a FOWLR tank go? Reason I'm asking is I may hold out for the new AI Phoenix..if one unit covers a 48" tank...

 

Side note: How do you quote separate lines like in your post??? I tried the multiquote thingy, but I think I'm doing it wrong....

Edited September 15, 2011 by .OptimusPrime.

[zygote2k]

this is why it's easier to just get a reef ready tank.

[Integral9]

A fowlr tank doesn't necessarily need a light, but a light really helps to make a fish tank took good. if you can find a cheap used light, it might be worth a small investment while you save up for the AI Phoenix, but buying things over is one of the reasons this hobby gets more expensive than people want. So it's best to avoid that when you can.

 

To quote multiple lines like I did, you have to copy and paste the quote tags in the message around the lines you want to quote and type your response in between. they are just html tags and show up in the reply box when you click the reply button.

[.OptimusPrime.]

Well, got my bulkheads and loc line in the mail yesterday..still no drill bits :( hopefully early next week.

 

The bulkheads are Slip X Thread with slip being on the flange/head side.

 

Does that mean the NUT side should be inside the tank or outside?

 

which brings me the next question: Am I doing this right?

 

 

That's how much I can hand tighten it...Does it need to go all the way in? be flush with nut to nut???

[BowieReefer84]

You should watch bulk reef supply tv on their site or via youtube. Easier to see it in a video than try to explain.

[.OptimusPrime.]

After just watching the video (please correct me if I am wrong)...

 

The flange side is the slip side which sits on the inside of the tank...nut is the outside.

 

I wouldn't be able to use the male adapter I have because the bulkhead is not threaded on the inside.

 

Is there another solution to this other than getting new bulkheads that are T X T?

[hypertech]

Glue pipe in the slip side.

[.OptimusPrime.]

Glue pipe in the slip side.

 

 

Meaning I can just switch the bulkhead around as a solution? or was I wrong completely in my understanding of the video? or both?

 

Sorry just trying to understand it, thats all.

[hypertech]

Big end and gasket inside the tank. Nut underneath.

 

If the tank side is the slip end just glue pipe in it.

[Integral9]

In your pic, the loc-line is on the wrong side of the bulk head. If your bulkhead is a slip connection on the other side, then that's a bummer. You can just use a small section of pipe (just enough to glue it together) to attach a slip x thread coupler to the bulk head and then screw the loc-line into that.

[.OptimusPrime.]

In your pic, the loc-line is on the wrong side of the bulk head. If your bulkhead is a slip connection on the other side, then that's a bummer. You can just use a small section of pipe (just enough to glue it together) to attach a slip x thread coupler to the bulk head and then screw the loc-line into that.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I figured that was the issue. I went ahead and ordered thread x threads. Ill besee drilling thethe Tank tomorrow. *fingers crossed*

[tpallas]

Great looking tank and stand! Can't wait to see it set up.

[.OptimusPrime.]

Great looking tank and stand! Can't wait to see it set up.

 

Thanks! I am eager to get it set up!

 

The TxT bulkheads came in today and the fit the loc line nicely. I have 2 x 3/4" sched. 80s SXT if anyone is interested.

 

Drill bits should be here Friday!

 

Should I leave my returns in the corners or bring them in next to the overflow with the nozzles pointed to the sides of the tank.

 

See paint pic.

[Integral9]

Most poeple have their returns in the corners and point them towards the middle front or some variation of that. But it's really up to you how you want to do your flow. The figure 8 flow created by putting the returns on the side and pointing them towards the middle mixes the water well and allows food and other particles to make their way around the aquarium nicely.

[.OptimusPrime.]

Most poeple have their returns in the corners and point them towards the middle front or some variation of that. But it's really up to you how you want to do your flow. The figure 8 flow created by putting the returns on the side and pointing them towards the middle mixes the water well and allows food and other particles to make their way around the aquarium nicely.

 

Noted. Will keep corner returns. Got the drill bits in today. I will be drilling on Sunday. If anyone wants to come over and help me out, let me know

 

Question about the bits (see attached picture)

 

The 3/4" head goes right in. The 1.5" does not. The 65mm was the recommended size on BRS. Is there a way around this? Or will it work it self out once the whole is drilled?