Update on my fish, new QT set up & medications

[Jan]

I have 7 fish that have survived and are doing much better and 2 new additions. Only one made it to the main display tank and was quickly removed. It does not appear ill. Based on what I've seen in pictures and read on the internet, how fast this disease spread and killed my fish, how well the remaining fish are responding to treatment and the way the fish appeared when they died I'm 90% sure they had velvet disease and not brooklynella. I may have had other things going on but I'm fairly certain that velvet disease was the killer.

 

I set up two Qt's on a wooden rack that I got at super petz for $10.00. I started out with a hyposalinity bath to kill as much of whatever they were afflicted with. Then they went into a tank with copper. I dosed according to the mfr recomendations and checked the copper levels twice daily to make sure they were kept at the right levels for proper treatment. If there isn't enough copper being used the disease becomes resistant. After a couple of days in copper my engineer goby dumped some kind of intestinal parasite. No doubt living inside it for years. The mucous coating started to disappear. Not sure that copper was the right medication I put up a 5 gallon tank and did a formalin dip. Then I reduced the amount of formalin and treated them all with formalin for a few days, according to mfr recomendations. I did this thinking they may have had brook. After being in the formalin 3 for a few days the engineer goby and my large chromis developed deep lesions. I called Sean at F&F and discussed the matter with him at length. I decided to place the fish back in the copper tank and added prazi to that tank along with the copper. As of this evening 3 of the fish look completely cured. The last fish I was able to catch just two days ago, a PJ cardinal, had cottony mucous looking stuff all over it's head and on one eye. The eye was so swollen it looked like a black molly. As of today its eye is back to normal and the cloudy cottony stuff on is all gone. The lesions on the engineer goby and the chromis are getting better, they're healing. They don't look as raw as they did when in the formalin. The true test is that they are all eating. The engineer goby has not eaten in days. I think they're going to make it.

 

I'm puzzled by one of the watchman gobys. It's still in my main tank. This fish is impossible to catch. It's surviving with no signs of illness or distress. I got this goby 2 years ago from another member that was tearing down his tank because everything in his tank died from dinoflagella. The member thought the goby died two years prior to our meeting. When he was moving some rocks around the goby darted out. We were able to catch it and I brought it home. I QT'd it for about 2 weeks. it appeard fine so it went into my main display and has been fine there for 2 years. I read that when fish survive velvet and other diseases that they may develope an immunity to the disease if introduced to it again. I also read that we all have these disease causing organisms in our systems. They're kept in check with good maintenance and with good QT habits. This goby reminds me of the survivors in the Andrometa Strain...I just dated myself .

 

A poorly maintained system and or weak, stressed and diseased fish can cause these organisms to multiply quickly and take over. I've neglected my tanks for the last 3-6 months. I didn't turn the lights for days at a time. I did not do water changes for a month or two. I didn't feed sometimes for days. I did not QT new fish. It was my neglagence that caused me to lose all the fish I lost. I was fairly consistant about changing water every 7-10 days, dosing when I changed water, feeding constantly throughout the day, keeping the lights on regularly and always observing my fish. Unfortunately life got in the way. I should have asked for help.

 

I lost

4 lyertail anthias

a pair of mated green mandarin fish

3 large blue green chromis

1 large kole tang

1 royal gramma

3 black and white clown fish that I rasied from 1" to 3.5"

1 black sailfin blenny

1 lawnmower blenny

all in a matter of 10 days

 

Medications I now have

Furan2

Copper safe

Prazi (TY Sean)

Formalin3 (TY Tony)

Prazi pro (I'm told this isn't as good as prazi and may even be harmful)

Ich attack (this is an all natural product that I'm using in my main display JIC)

 

I had a 5 gallon and a 3 gallon tank with intergrated light and HOB filters for QT but they were not sufficient to handle these many fish. They were also plastic. They were fine for observing and light treatment with hyposalinity or antibiotics but not for treating with copper.

 

My "new" QT set up includes

1-10 gallon tank for copper (TY Learning)

1-5 gallon tank for other medications (to be replaced shortly by another 10 gallon tank Ty Chad)

Since other medications wash away easier than copper does this tank will also be used as the standard QT tank for all new livestock. This tank will also be on the top of my stand while the copper tank will be on the bottom. This is to avoid accidentally getting copper treated water into the the other tank.

1 wooden stand that holds both tanks

2-50 watt heaters

2-nano pumps for circulation

2-Thermometers

2-Rio Taam nano HOB filters w/intergrated skimmer 1 marked COPPER (They work great! A must have)

2-fish nets (2 differnt colors - 1 for the copper tank and 1 for other medications)

2-turkey basters (one marked copper)

2-medicine measuring cups that measures oz, ml, tsps and grams

1 set of stainless steel measuring spoons

1-5 gallon pail (to syphon water from the tanks) I synphoned water from the copper treated tank into this pail I marked it "COPPER" and it will only be used for syphoning medicated water

1-10 foot hose for syphoning water (Marked "Medication hose")

1-copper test kit

1-API master test kit with Ammonia, nittrate, nitrite and PH tests (this is important because your sick tanks will go through a soft cycle when you medicate.

 

Poly filters

Carbon pads (used for ponds but can be used for marine systems)

Activated charcoal

Ammonia absorbing pads (used for ponds but can also be used for marine aquariums. these come in sheets and can be cut to size)

 

At least 30 gallons of extra mixed water for changes

1-standard PC light (Since the tanks are bare bottom and the stand is open one light sufficiently lights up both tanks

1 small storage container marked fish medication

Copper will wash out of glass but it will not wash out of plastic. Since I can't be sure that all the copper has been completly taken out of the tank or anything else that's glass I marked whatever I used with the copper with the letter "C" or "COPPER"

 

PVC pipes in various sizes. The ones used in the copper tank are marked "copper" (the fish need a place to hide)

 

Please pardon any typos, I'm tried.

 

Thanks to everyone that helped by giving me advice, support and equipment. A very special heartfelt thanks go to Sean of F&F's for all your help, all the advice and guidance you gave me and for your patience. thnak you, thank you, thank you!

J

Edited August 1, 2011 by Hilary

[FearTheTerps]

Glad to hear you have everything back on track and the fish are doing better.

 

Lots of good info for setting up a good qt and hospital tanks.

[Hilary]

Great info, Jan, and so glad to hear that you were able to get on top of this. Amazing about the goby - hearty little sucker!

[Tri Bui]

yup this hobby need quite a bit of attention and maintenance, been there did that! glad you able to save your life stock, good job!

[Jan]

Will one of the mods please please correct my typo in last paragraph from "DIDN'T" to "DID". I wrote this at almost 4am after doing another water change. Feel free to correct other typos. Thank you.

 

I forgot to add that my main display will be fishles, except for the watchman goby for about 2 months. The diseased fish will remain in the hospital for the same amount of time. This gives me plenty of time to save my money for more fish. I will start to restock with inexpensive chromis and take it from there.

J

Edited August 1, 2011 by Jan

[BowieReefer84]

You seem to have a very good plan to follow. Goodluck with your tank. Hope it all works out for you.

 

"Please pardon any typos, I'm tried...." *Tired

[Guest thefishman65]

She had it right "I'm tried [trying] to fix them". Her real problem is the grammar

 

I like the plan to - good luck.

Edited August 1, 2011 by thefishman65

[Jan]

LOL, I'm both tried and tired. There are many typos. I think faster than I type and then don't review. I hope I got my point across.

You seem to have a very good plan to follow. Goodluck with your tank. Hope it all works out for you.

 

"Please pardon any typos, I'm tried...." *Tired

[Jan]

You are so right. Thank you.

yup this hobby need quite a bit of attention and maintenance, been there did that! glad you able to save your life stock, good job!

[Jan]

Thanks, Hilary. Better late than never, I guess. I feel terrible. Also lost one of my seahorses . I didn't feed them enough. I've cried for days and been up until all hours trying to correct what I did.

 

 

Great info, Jan, and so glad to hear that you were able to get on top of this. Amazing about the goby - hearty little sucker!

[Jan]

TY. I hope it helps others.

Glad to hear you have everything back on track and the fish are doing better.

 

Lots of good info for setting up a good qt and hospital tanks.

[Origami]

What a ride, Jan! Sorry for the losses. I'm going through some heartbreak myself, you know. Ugh. I'm still not done getting all of my equipment back online. I'll re-start chipping away at the dead coral skeletons later this week.

 

I'm glad that you got this under control, even if it was later than you would have wanted. It's a good reminder to QT! I'm also glad that Sean helped to get this under control. He's quite a resource - especially when it comes to this sort of thing.

 

I hope all else in life is going better, and that the worst of this is now behind you. Talk to you soon.

[dano]

Hi Jan... just logged on after being off a few days and saw your posting. So sorry about what you've been through but you certainly stepped up to the plate and got things going in the right direction in a major way. So much work!! As you know from my recent fish life, I can certainly empathize. Hope it goes much easier from here and call me if I can be of help.

[Jan]

For some reason multiQuote wont work for me.

 

@Tom - A ride indeed! I saw the post about your losses. I'm so sorry. Sean is amazing. A true asset to the hobby and to the club. We're lucky to have him. Thank you.

 

@Daniel - Thank you. I should have called you. You know how crazy stuff has been here. Hope all is well with you and your family and the new place.

J

[Jan]

Well, just when everything was starting to look good and every fish was healing, out of the blue I lost 4 more fish in two days. The healthier ones at that. The fish appeared distressed after a water change. I checked ammonia and it was off the charts. I did 100% water change and added polyfilter and ammo lock. The rest are still in distress.

 

Curing these critters once they're afflicted with something is no easy task. It's truly a job for the professionals. I've got 4 left. I'm on it, but not too hopeful at this point.

 

Lessoned learned...An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. For sure!

Edited August 9, 2011 by Jan

[Origami]

Whoa. Again? I'm sorry for the additional losses, Jan. Any idea what drove the ammonia up? Is there something else that died off that's decaying hidden somewhere?

[Jan]

I have no clue. Nothing that I can see. All that's in that tank are fish, a heater, a power head and HOB filter. I had no media in the filter because I wanted to keep the medication level up. Now there's a poly filter in there. It cycled? Some bacteria can survive with the copper and prazi. All I can think is that it went through a cycle from the fish food and poop. I've been very careful to syphon up any left over food and poop. The 100% water change should have taken care of the ammonia. I'm just as stumped as you are. The tank is bare. I even took out the PVC I bought for the fish to hide in thinking somehow that it was decomposing. What do I know? So far 2 water changes and the ammonia is still up. I've run out of mix and salt so we're going to have to tough it out with the ammo lock. I even tested the mix I used thinking that something may have gotten in the water, but the mix was fine. I changed out some water form my other tanks with the same mix. I'm baffled.

 

 

Whoa. Again? I'm sorry for the additional losses, Jan. Any idea what drove the ammonia up? Is there something else that died off that's decaying hidden somewhere?

[davelin315]

The ammonia is from the fish waste that is produced, it doesn't need any bacteria to get started as the fish house those bacteria in their guts as they digest and release the food. Depending on how the medication you are running works, I'd advocate more water changes. The ammonia will just build up as there's no bacteria established to neutralize it (even then, it just gets more toxic as it gets converted to nitrite). Using amquel or some other sort of ammo lock as you did is a must in your situation. I have tested the water in bags that fish came in and if they decide to go in the bag, depending on the size of the fish, the ammonia can sky rocket within hours (I once purchased a small stingray and it came in a large styro full of water and by the time I got it home, the ammonia in the water was through the roof from it going to the bathroom one single time).

 

I'd suggest getting some sort of bio-filter on there. IMO it's never a good idea to run a hospital or QT tank without using a biological filter. I try and keep some filter sponge in my sump in case I need to do something like set up a quick hospital tank. I've got 2 different sponges in 2 different places if you'd like one. They are not the greatest things in the world and come with whatever might be in my tank, but at the same time, they have bacteria in them to filter the water. They can be thrown out after being exposed to medicine. Even keeping a limited amount of bioballs just floating in your sump will help when you need to set up a hospital or QT system. I've also got little tater tot looking things that I got from F&F awhile back to try and reduce nitrates that would do the trick as well. Again, though, they'd be useless afterwards based on the use of medication, though.

[Jan]

You just reminded me...I keep a bio wheel sponge in my sump for when I want to kick start a new set up. After 2 100% water changes all the medication should be gone. I'll try that. So after everything is stable, if I get to that point, wont I have die off again after I add medication;copper, prazi, formalin or furan-2? This is where the biology gets a little confusing for me. Teaching this is right up your ally.....

 

Thank you for the offer and the advice.

 

 

The ammonia is from the fish waste that is produced, it doesn't need any bacteria to get started as the fish house those bacteria in their guts as they digest and release the food. Depending on how the medication you are running works, I'd advocate more water changes. The ammonia will just build up as there's no bacteria established to neutralize it (even then, it just gets more toxic as it gets converted to nitrite). Using amquel or some other sort of ammo lock as you did is a must in your situation. I have tested the water in bags that fish came in and if they decide to go in the bag, depending on the size of the fish, the ammonia can sky rocket within hours (I once purchased a small stingray and it came in a large styro full of water and by the time I got it home, the ammonia in the water was through the roof from it going to the bathroom one single time).

 

I'd suggest getting some sort of bio-filter on there. IMO it's never a good idea to run a hospital or QT tank without using a biological filter. I try and keep some filter sponge in my sump in case I need to do something like set up a quick hospital tank. I've got 2 different sponges in 2 different places if you'd like one. They are not the greatest things in the world and come with whatever might be in my tank, but at the same time, they have bacteria in them to filter the water. They can be thrown out after being exposed to medicine. Even keeping a limited amount of bioballs just floating in your sump will help when you need to set up a hospital or QT system. I've also got little tater tot looking things that I got from F&F awhile back to try and reduce nitrates that would do the trick as well. Again, though, they'd be useless afterwards based on the use of medication, though.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Jan

[Origami]

Ah, I didn't realize this was going on in a QT / Hospital tank, Jan. Definitely fish waste and food is the source of the ammonia. When running anti-biologicals, you definitely need to be on the lookout for ammonia. If a biological filter won't work in the situation, I probably would manage the levels through frequent water changes. Good luck and watch your pH, because the higher the pH, the greater the free ammonia and the greater the ammonia toxicity. There is also a positive correlation between temperature and ammonia toxicity - the higher the temp, the more toxic the ammonia.

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

[Reefoholic]

I am sorry for your further losses, Jan. I admire your persistence and great attitude!

[Jan]

Thanks, Tom.

 

So really the only thing I can keep doing since I'm still medicating is to continue to change large volumes of water. The problem is that fresh mix is worse than water from the main tank as it has no biological filtration in it. Adding water from the main tank may re infect the fish but maybe the ammonia will take longer to rise and with medication the disease wont affect the fish? So it's really all about timing and making sure that I change water before food and waste start to breakdown. I'm thinking out loud here. If I use a my bio wheel or even LR to establish some biological filtration once I medicate it kills off pretty much everything....but does it happen faster than it would with freshly mixed water than it would with already established water with food and waste breaking down? Do these questions make sense? Do you think adding Brightwell microbacter7 with every water change would help?

 

Ah, I didn't realize this was going on in a QT / Hospital tank, Jan. Definitely fish waste and food is the source of the ammonia. When running anti-biologicals, you definitely need to be on the lookout for ammonia. If a biological filter won't work in the situation, I probably would manage the levels through frequent water changes. Good luck and watch your pH, because the higher the pH, the greater the free ammonia and the greater the ammonia toxicity. There is also a positive correlation between temperature and ammonia toxicity - the higher the temp, the more toxic the ammonia.

 

http://reefkeeping.c...2/rhf/index.php

[Jan]

Thank you. It could have all been prevented. I have to be persistant. I'm at fault. I think at one time or another we all go through difficult times in one way or another in this hobby. I learn from all of this and I will take better care and more precautions once I get passed it all.

 

 

I am sorry for your further losses, Jan. I admire your persistence and great attitude!

[Hilary]

Why do I think that Copps said in his lecture about angels that he basically does 100% water changes daily when they're in hospital tanks learning to feed? I could be all mixed up, but that's stuck in my mind. Jan, you inspire me with your willingness to dig in and do everything you possibly can. I know that you love to learn, but by sharing all of this you're helping all of us to learn - thank you!

 

Now maybe I should go and do a water change......

[Jan]

Thank you, Hilary. Yes, do a water change!

 

I took Dave Lins advice and added some LR rubble that was in my tank just to add some biological filtration to help stabalize everything. I'll throw it away when I'm done with it. I only did this because I'm fairly sure that all the medication is out of the tank. I have a bio wheel but I want to keep that for kick starting another system, not medicated system, if I need to. I'll start to medicate once the fish are stable.

 

Between the water changes, poly filter, ammo lock and LR the fish seem to have gotten better. The rapid respirations have calmed down. They don't appear distressed. I'll take the LR out tomorrow, do another water change and start to medicate again in a day or so.

 

The fish should be in copper for 1 month. Not sure about the prazi. I have to ask Sean about it. The main tank should be without fish for 6 weeks or more. My omega watchman is in the main tank and she's doing just fine. BTW, I found out how to tell the difference between male and female watchman goby;female is pale yellow, smaller and has a gray or darker band on it's back. The male is brighter and bigger. I'll do water changes every other day to start and see how that goes. I'll feed less and observe more often and if need be increase water changes to everyday . Thank goodness the hospital tank is only 10 gallons.

 

Thanks for all your support and wonderful words of encouragement. If I succeed I'll write something up that will be easier to follow.

 

 

 

 

Why do I think that Copps said in his lecture about angels that he basically does 100% water changes daily when they're in hospital tanks learning to feed? I could be all mixed up, but that's stuck in my mind. Jan, you inspire me with your willingness to dig in and do everything you possibly can. I know that you love to learn, but by sharing all of this you're helping all of us to learn - thank you!

 

Now maybe I should go and do a water change......