Basement sump

[beatle]

After my near catastrophe with the sump under my 120, I'm strongly considering a basement sump. I know I'll need a stronger pump than my Eheim 1260 (Mag 12 or 18?) and I'll have to drill holes in my floor, but other than that, any advice? Most of the threads on RC are encouraging, but some people hate the humidity. My basement isn't damp to begin with, so I'm not sure if I'll have that problem.

 

If I pull the trigger, I'll likely run a 75g as a sump/refugium combo, though I do wonder about having multiple tanks. I'd consider a drilled 75g with another tank below, perhaps as a refugium. Thoughts? Anyone have any sweet basement sumps nearby?

[LanglandJoshua]

I would strongly support a basement sump. If you have will and ability to do it, you will enjoy it later. I don't have one myself, however I've seen similar systems. They normally include one sump for equipment, and another for live rock. You can always add another for fish, or whatever else you want. This way your set on pods, and natural filtration. I would suggest getting a plastic tub, for a yard pond. I've seen them used many times, and they are relatively cheap. Of course it all has to do with the space you have to work with.

 

After looking at a chart for magflows flow rates, it's showing that at 10' a mag 12 has about1-200GPH. The mag 18 is not much better. These pumps can move alot of water on level surfaces, but raising it requires alot more force. I love my coral, and am a huge fan of large water turnover. My 75 gal tank will soon have a mag 12. And the hose is only 6'. If your talking running a hose, or pipe up a floor in your house then your looking at a minimum of 15'. If you count the tanks top being 5' from the floor, and each floor in your house being 10'. Every bend in the pipe restricts water flow as well. I would suggest looking into a more powerful pump. Most of those stronger pumps are not submersible, unfortunately.

 

As for moisture, my 150gal system keeps it's corner of a dry basement humid. So depending on airflow, a fan or dehumidifier may be in order. When were talking about the cash investment your looking into, that's not too hard.

 

I look forward to hearing if you chose to go with it. I also hope that there will be no more catastrophe's, or near catastrophe's!

Edited May 17, 2011 by LanglandJoshua

[OUsnakebyte]

I would consider an external pump (drill near the bottom of one of your sides on the sump) and go for a Reeflo pump - one of the models rated for head pressure. I would keep the return line wide - like 1.25" or 1.5" for as long as you can, until you reduce to 1" or so as you return back to your display. But, keep in mind that those wide return lines will hold a lot of water. So, when the power goes out, make sure you have enough room in your sump to accommodate the back-flow of water in the lines.

 

Also nice that you can keep your skimmer, heater, and any other peripherals in the basement with probably easier access for maintenance than cramming under your display.

 

Cheers

Mike

Edited May 17, 2011 by OUsnakebyte

[Brian Ward]

As the others suggested, a Mag anything will not support the head pressure you'll need. You have to have a pressure rated pump and I believe those are all external pumps. Most basement sumps I've seen utilize a rubbermaid stock tank @ 100 or 150 gallons. That's definitely an option with a return pump to send water up to your display and then set up a 75 as a refugium and use your existing eheim to circulate water into the fuge. Of course, all this depends on how much space you have to dedicate. The plumbing configuration Mike suggested - keeping the pipes as large as possible as long as possible is definitely a good route to go but as he mentioned, you must be sure you have enough room in the sump to hold all the water when the power goes out.

[OUsnakebyte]

Most basement sumps I've seen utilize a rubbermaid stock tank @ 100 or 150 gallons. That's definitely an option with a return pump to send water up to your display and then set up a 75 as a refugium and use your existing eheim to circulate water into the fuge.

 

I forgot about this - great idea if you have the room. And, many will already have a 1.25" or 1.5" threaded outlet.

 

Cheers

Mike

[extreme_tooth_decay]

I had a basement sump (55+40) for several years for my 125 display tank. I attached a couple pics of the sump setup below.

 

There is a 55 sump and a 40 fuge connected. I don't have one pic of the whole setup, you'll have to glue the 2 pics together in your mind...note that the second pic was taken when I still had the fuge integrated in the 55. I later moved the fuge out to the 40 (first pic).

 

 

Here are some of my observations:

 

1) I was able to open up a fairly small hole in my wall and run 2 large diameter (Lowe's) vinyl tubes to the basement (1.5"?) and one smaller diameter vinyl return tube (1"?). The flexible tubing is great for this...lower head loss and easy to route. The big tubes plugged directly into the bulkheads in the tank...no plumbing parts at all from tank to sump.

 

--> The holes in the wall were easy to patch. I would avoid drilling holes in the floor if possible.

 

2) For a long time I used a MAG 18 return pump, which worked fine for me. I had about 12ish feet of head. I did not need or want silly/crazy flow at that time. This saved me a good deal of electricity because I didn't need additional flow.

--> I believe a MAG 18 at 12' is 750 GPH (LINK). A mag 12 at 10' is 600 GPH.

 

3) I did later switch to a sequence wahoo pressure rated pump (seen in one of the pics below with over-the-top overflow from 55 sump), not because I had to, but because I was bored and wanted a change.

 

4) I loved having the sump in the basement. It helped with temperature control, got all the ugly equipment out of the way, and I wasn't concerned if some water splashed during water changes. It also gave me a place to put a huge fuge (40B as seen in the pic).

 

5) I did add a dehumidifier to my basement.

 

6) After I added that big fuge with all that macro, I never couple measure my nitrates again. And I fed a ton. I also harvested huge amounts of it and fed it to my fish weekly.

 

 

I'd recommend going for it, I think it is great.

 

You should be able to see the 2 tubes coming in to the 55 sump, the extra 40BR fuge, and the return pump in these pics.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2011 by extreme_tooth_decay

[HDReef]

I have a 75g tank as my basement sump. You can see pics of it Here, the basement sump stuff starts at post #8. I love it so far. I also have a head pressure calculator that I made in excel so if you decide to go this route and need help selecting a pump just let me know.

[Origami]

One impact that you'll see from moving to a basement sump is higher operating costs since you'll have to lift water farther 24/7. Because of this,it (literally) pays to consider the most efficient pump that you can afford that also makes sense in the application.

 

Because of the inevitable power draw, I suggest that you use an external pump to avoid basically adding a heater to your system (as would be the case with a submersible pump)

 

Because of the height that you need to cover (14+ feet, not counting head losses), a decent pressure rated pump is called for.

 

Personally, I like Reeflo pumps for their efficiency. In the end, the pump pays you back because of the savings in operating costs. (As a rule of thumb, I like to say that you save about $1 per year for every Watt less that you use in return pumps.)

 

For example, let's consider two smaller externals: A Reeflo Tarpon and a Blueline W100HD:

 

A Blueline will provide about 1000 gph at 15' of head pressure while using 290 Watts. It would cost you about $320 at Aquacave. Applying the rule of thumb, this will cost you about $290 a year to operate (it's actually a little higher these days, so the estimate's conservative).

 

The Tarpon, on the other hand, will give you about 840 gph at 15' but only draws 180W, saving you about $110 per year in operating costs over the Blueline. Sure, it costs $450 new as compared to the Blueline, but you make the $160 price difference back in less than 18 months. It also has a higher resale value. An added plus is that Reeflo makes very reliable pumps.

 

Other options in the Reeflo line include:

 

Reeflo Marlin: 1928 gph at 15' head pressure drawing 350W.

Reeflo Wahoo: 1320 gph at 15' head pressure drawing 300W.

 

I've used the Wahoo before and was very satisfied. However, I did not have a pressure application like you have, so I switched to a lower-drawing Dart.

 

If you decide to go with a Reeflo, give Chris a call at Reeflo (www.reeflopumps.com) and ask him if he can cut you a deal on the pump. Very often, you'll get a very good price direct from them.

[Brian Ward]

I believe the Red Dragon pumps are also supposed to be very efficient.

[beatle]

Wow, lots of great advice so far. Keep it coming!

 

I really only need/want about 500-600gph going through my display anyway. Depending on where I locate my sump, I will only have about 11-12' of head pressure to overcome. I think a mag 12 could do what I need, a mag 18 would handle it no problem. I prefer having submersible pumps as it's one less thing to fail. I've read that some people's temps drop 4 degrees when moving the sump to the basement, so I don't believe the added heat of the mag pump will be an issue. Also, if I place the 75g tank on a stand, the pump can be self-contained within the sump.

 

Are power costs that high in VA? My calculator does not show that big of a difference. I can double check when I get home.

 

Good to know about the pipes in the wall. Drywall is easier to patch than flooring, and I have plenty of flex PVC to use.

 

I do own a dehumidfier, but I'd prefer not to use it if I don't have to. Maybe this is a dumb question, but why is humidity a big issue in a basement but not on any other floor? Lack of circulation?

 

I've also seen several people use the Rubbermaid stock tanks as sumps, but I don't see a way to create a refugium within one, at least not with a sandbed. I'd also like to have the ability to see in from the side. Maybe these are more useful if you're running a dedicated refugium?

Edited May 17, 2011 by beatle

[extreme_tooth_decay]

If you want 500-600, I would definitely consider a MAG 18. It worked well for me for a long time. If you look, you can usually find them new for just a little over $100. A wahoo is going to cost you 4 times that much.

 

And you are right about the heat transfer, I noticed my temps drop a substantial amount when I set up my basement sump...even with the MAG 18 running. That is just heat you don't need a heater for.

Edited May 17, 2011 by extreme_tooth_decay

[Origami]

I believe the Red Dragon pumps are also supposed to be very efficient.

I'm unfamiliar with them aside from the ones that are used with skimmers. Do they have the required head pressure?

 

I really only need/want about 500-600gph going through my display anyway. Depending on where I locate my sump, I will only have about 11-12' of head pressure to overcome.

Don't forget your dynamic (friction losses). It's more than just the vertical lift. There's friction and losses due to piping, valves, turns, etc.

 

I think a mag 12 could do what I need, a mag 18 would handle it no problem. I prefer having submersible pumps as it's one less thing to fail. I've read that some people's temps drop 4 degrees when moving the sump to the basement, so I don't believe the added heat of the mag pump will be an issue. Also, if I place the 75g tank on a stand, the pump can be self-contained within the sump.

Your call. Your tank will certainly run cooler in the basement as it dumps the heat into the cooler basement air. That's where my main display is. Just figure, though, that for a Mag-18 consuming 145 Watts, the actual power for the work being performed (that is, moving 420 gph at 15 feet) is about 20 Watts. [P = W/t = F*d/t = m*a*d/t = v*density*a*d/t = (420g * 3.78541 l/g * 1.023 * 9.8 m/sec^2 * 4.57m)/3600 sec = 20 Watts] That means that 125 Watts is being almost completely converted to heat. That's like running a 125W heater in your tank 24 hours per day. Sometimes that's a good thing - like in the winter. Sometimes it's a bad thing.

 

Are power costs that high in VA? My calculator does not show that big of a difference. I can double check when I get home.

Say that the average rate per kWhr is 11.5 cents (after generation, distribution, taxes, etc.). Since your pump runs 24 hours per day, 7 days a week (8760 hours per year), you multiply this rate by the number of hours (0.115 x 8760) to get $1,007.40 per year to run a 1000W device. That's about a dollar per Watt per year.

 

I do own a dehumidfier, but I'd prefer not to use it if I don't have to. Maybe this is a dumb question, but why is humidity a big issue in a basement but not on any other floor? Lack of circulation?

Mold, for one. Condensation for another.

[HDReef]

Don't forget your dynamic (friction losses). It's more than just the vertical lift. There's friction and losses due to piping, valves, turns, etc.

 

 

That is very true. It also depends on flow rate. My calculator takes all these into consideration so just let me know if you need me to run any scenarios for you.

[Chad]

I have found this site to be a good reference for friction losses (remember friction losses translate directly into head loss).

 

Also, the RD2 (if it is out yet in the states... last I checked it was not) might be a good (but very pricey initial investment) choice; IIRC it pushes something like 2000 gpm at 75w

[beatle]

Seems like if I budget for 12' of head and two 90 deg fittings, my overall head loss will be just over 13'. That puts a mag 12 at only 300gph, but a mag 18 will still be at 660 which is more than I need. My Eheim 1260 is rated for 600gph at 0' head, and is probably only giving me ~400 gph right now.

 

As far as the humidity goes, I know the consequences of high humidity (mold, corrosion, condensation, etc.) but why does humidity become an issue in the basement, yet it's generally not a concern elsewhere, such as in the display? Temperature difference?

[OUsnakebyte]

I prefer having submersible pumps as it's one less thing to fail.

 

I've had Mag pumps fail on me more than any other brand. I only use them for water mixing/changes now b/c of that.

 

In addition to getting a bigger pump for a return, consider plumbing it with a manifold so you can run all your peripherals - skimmer, one/two/three media reactors, calcium reactor, UV, etc., etc. - you never know how fancy you might want to get in the future... Even throw in a bypass to bleed off extra pressure if you need to.

 

Even if you don't use the output of one tee from a manifold, just valve it off for future use.

 

Good luck - sounds like a fun project!

 

Cheers

Mike

[beatle]

I planned to build a manifold on my current setup, but quickly found it useless due to the lack of space under the stand. I can see how it would be helpful if you have the room, however.

[OldReefer]

I am running a basement sump on my 150. I use a Pan World pump and love it. I find it to be ultra reliable compared to mags. You are welcome to stop by for ideas.

[Gatorpoet]

I just broke down my reef tank that I had set up with a basement sump. I have a 100g sump tub and a Blue Line 70 System Pump (1750 gph at 0') that I'm selling. Send me a PM here if you're interested.

[lowsingle]

I ran a basement sump for three years and loved it.......I had no heat problems from running a submerged pump (I used a Mag 18 and didn't have any reliability issues) even though my display tank was only around 60 gallons. I have a 40 gallon breeder that I used as a fuge and that was great because I had this huge water buffer that helped to control parameters. In the basement you have plenty of space so water changes are less painful and adding an extra sump is easy. To control evaporation in the basement I put a lid on all of my sumps.....that saved like 2 gallons of evaporation a week. Best part was, I could leave a mess on the floor and the wife wouldn't harass me. Below is a pic of the setup.....sorry for the mess, I was in the middle of changing the fuge.....

 

 

I'm in the process of breaking that system down as I have to downsize in order to facilitate a move to the west coast that will likely happen in about a year, so if you are interested in the pumps (I have two mag 18s) or the custom NAGA sump I had made let me know as I will have them available in a month or so.

 

cheers,

Darren

[Origami]

As far as the humidity goes, I know the consequences of high humidity (mold, corrosion, condensation, etc.) but why does humidity become an issue in the basement, yet it's generally not a concern elsewhere, such as in the display? Temperature difference?

Yes. The walls and floor are generally cooler than the walls and floor in the above ground portion of your house. That's why it's often cooler in the basement.

 

I don't cover my sumps or my tank (both are in the basement. I evaporate up to 3.5 gallons per day. The basement is pretty open, so the load is distributed over 1600+ square feet on that floor, and twice that in the other two floors. In the summer, I let the AC take the humidity out of the air. In the winter, the heater circulates the humidity through the house, keeping the air moist. If, for some reason, my wife turns off the air circulation (I ask her not to do that), I get condensation on the windows in the basement.

 

I was at one guy's home a few years ago. He had a 90 plus sumps and such in the basement of his townhome, which had a tiled floor. He had a humidity problem, and condensation on the tile floor, which kept the floor somewhat slippery.

[Larry Grenier]

I have a 96 gallon basement sump/fuge sitting on a tall stand which puts it only < 24" from the ceiling right under the display tank above. I'm using a Mag 9. It's nice doing water changes and having the skimmer in the basement. I also have a few freshwater tanks down there and may be adding a frag tank. I have a smallish de-humidifier down there running during the summer and it's nice to add a little moisture during the winter when the heat is on.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Larry Grenier

[LanglandJoshua]

I have a 96 gallon basement sump/fuge sitting on a tall stand which puts it only < 24" from the ceiling right under the display tank above. I'm using a Mag 9. It's nice doing water changes and having the skimmer in the basement. I also have a few freshwater tanks down there and may be adding a frag tank. I have a smallish de-humidifier down there running during the summer and it's nice to add a little moisture during the winter when the heat is on.

Yeah, AC/heater normally gets the job done. I suggested dehumidifier just in case it's one of those basements with little ventilation. I should have clarified.

[Larry Grenier]

Yeah, AC/heater normally gets the job done. I suggested dehumidifier just in case it's one of those basements with little ventilation. I should have clarified.

I literally had water droplets forming on things

[sjm817]

I recently tore down my system (will do another in the future) that had a basement sump. I had it running for many years. It was a 180 display with a 75G sump and 30G fuge. Here are a few tips

 

Put the sump up on a bench. Less pumping height, easier to work on, easy for a gravity drain for water changes.

Spa flex for the drains and the return worked very well. Very easy to do the plumbing runs.

I cut a rectangular hole in the floor that a heating register can drop into in the event you remove the system.

I never had any humidity issues at all.

I found heating the system especially in the Winter took a lot of electricity. A water cooled pump is not a bad idea. Heat from the return pump can be a benefit.

 

 

I prefer externals, but if you want to use a Mag12/18 it may not be a bad idea because of the above. If you cant decide between the two, they are the same pump except for the impeller. Get the 12 and if you need more flow, get the 18 impeller for it.

Edited May 22, 2011 by sjm817