dmatt56 January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 Hello everyone.... Bottom line up front: I'm combining both my existing 90G and 54G tanks in a new 180G. I plan to reuse the live rock from the 180 and dump the sand. Please provide advice on my proposed strategy... Thought process... move existing 90 in the new 180 in one day... after a month or two.....move the 54 to the 180G. The plan.... Before the tank arrives: Make 120G of fresh saltwater that's mixed and the same temp as my 90G Purchase 180 pounds of Nature's Ocean Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Reef Substrate (fresh live sand)* Make the required electrical connections Day of the move: Place base rock from the (new) existing 180 in new tank Add the new live sand Add 35G of new saltwater to the tank Move ALL the saltwater from the 90G to the new 180G Move the 90G live rock the new 180G tank Move the corals, fish, and inverts from the 90G to the 180G SLOWLY add the remaining gallons of new saltwater to fill the tank After everything is okay in a month... Move 54G live rock to the newly established 180 Acclimate the live fish, corals, and inverts from the 54 to the newly established 180 So here are my questions: *Do I need the new live sand? Can I combine new live with new dry aragonite? Can I use existing 90G sand? **Is this plan too aggressive? ***Can you offer any advice or recommendations to this plan? Thanks!!! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldReefer January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 Matt, Go with some Biodigest and Microbacter 7 early in the set-up. I was amazed at how that shortened the cycle and got rid of the crud from the live rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grav January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 *Do I need the new live sand? >> NO absolutly not. We have started dozens of tanks with "dry" sand and (now hear is the catch) 100% cured live rock and added fish and coral within a week. Can I combine new live with new dry aragonite? >> Sure, but the dry rock is NOT cured there is a ton of dead dry organics in that stuff. You will see when you get it in... add it to water and it will stink up your whole house. Can I use existing 90G sand? >> I would not. Little benifit, lots of risk. Rinse, over and over with tap water to "clean" and save a few $ on new dry sand, but clean all the old junk out of it. **Is this plan too aggressive? >> Yep. (sorry had to have some bad news) Where is this "new" live rock coming from? Step 6 has you adding fish from an established system to a tank with new live rock and live sand before it is even filled with water... I can't see that ending well. In fact, unless I'm misunderstanding something, I'd bet everything would be dead in 2 days. ***Can you offer any advice or recommendations to this plan? Everything (rock and sand) MUST be cured which can take 6+ weeks, AND all the waste from that curing process must be gone prior to adding livestock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 Matt, Go with some Biodigest and Microbacter 7 early in the set-up. I was amazed at how that shortened the cycle and got rid of the crud from the live rock. +1 Although I just used the Biodigest, no Microbacter. I used 100% new water in the 75 when I set it up, added Biodigest, put in my same old liverock, and put in all my livestock, everything done in a single day. Between the already-established/already-cured liverock, and the Biodigest, the tank had all the beneficial bacteria it needed to keep from having a potentially dangerous cycling event. Bioload size would possibly make a difference though.... mine is very small for my tank size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 The plan.... Before the tank arrives: Make 120G of fresh saltwater that's mixed and the same temp as my 90G Purchase 180 pounds of Nature's Ocean Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Reef Substrate (fresh live sand)* Make the required electrical connections Day of the move: Place base rock from the (new) existing 180 in new tank Add the new live sand Add 35G of new saltwater to the tank Move ALL the saltwater from the 90G to the new 180G Move the 90G live rock the new 180G tank Move the corals, fish, and inverts from the 90G to the 180G SLOWLY add the remaining gallons of new saltwater to fill the tank After everything is okay in a month... Move 54G live rock to the newly established 180 Acclimate the live fish, corals, and inverts from the 54 to the newly established 180 So here are my questions: *Do I need the new live sand? Can I combine new live with new dry aragonite? Can I use existing 90G sand? **Is this plan too aggressive? ***Can you offer any advice or recommendations to this plan? Thanks!!! Matt You don't need the new live sand. You can use dry. A bacterial additive, like Microbacter 7, can help accelerate populating the sand. You can use the existing sand, but you're advised to clean it very well as there may be a lot of organic material in it and, if it was a deep sand bed, there may be pockets of hydrogen sulfide. A good cleaning is not all, though, it will need a thorough cycle before you should add anything living back into the tank. Using new sand is probably simpler. I assume that the two tanks are in completely different locations? Otherwise, the transfer is not as simple as you've made it out to be. Place the rock in the 180 first (Maybe on an egg crate support or something that distributes the weight across a larger area so that you don't have pinpoint pressure points. If the tank is fully supported across the bottom, then this is less important, but still safer.) Rather than move everything at one time, I think that you ought to make sure that the new tank is cycled - or at least that there's not any die-off that is producing ammonia. That's critical. Don't rush it if you don't have to. When I upgraded from a 90 to my 180 system, I actually had the two systems plumbed together for a short time. Once I was comfortable that the 180 was cycled, I opened the valves connecting the two systems very slightly, allowing them to mix. After a couple of days, I began transferring rock and livestock, breaking down the 90 after the move was complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowieReefer84 January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 One thing I would def recommend is to have say a 30 gal rubbermade filled halfway with tank water. Use it to slush the rocks in from old tanks, before adding to the new tank. You will have a lot of detritus trapped in them, and it will make the new tank very cloudy if you do not do this imo. Also, helps to see what you are doing as far as aquascaping goes. Very frustrating trying to do rockwork in cloudy water. Trust me on that one.... If you only need 1 or 2 vials of prodibio digest let me know. Send me a pm. Use new sand. After you drain your tanks, and smell that old sand you will know why. IDEA: If you are getting new baserock, and need to cure it do this. Transfer everything from the 54 into the 180, and use the 54 to cycle the new rock. This will require allow you to get the new tank setup, and cycle the rock only in an existing system. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 (edited) Make 120G of fresh saltwater that's mixed and the same temp as my 90G 4. Move ALL the saltwater from the 90G to the new 180G I agree with all those who have posted here about other stuff, but didn't see this mentioned. When you remove water from the 90 to go into the 180, I would leave ~4-6" of water above the substrate (true for the 54 too) while you remove and transfer the live rock and corals. After you remove the live rock and catch all of your fish, this water will be pretty nasty and you will want to discard it after you catch your fish. To be on the safe side, I would make up a little bit (20ish) or so gallons of water because it always takes more than you think. Edited January 31, 2011 by Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thefishman65 January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 He sort of had that cover 'Make 120G of fresh saltwater that's mixed and the same temp as my 90G" But I agree with leaving some behind so up this to 150G would be my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 (edited) One thing I would def recommend is to have say a 30 gal rubbermade filled halfway with tank water. Use it to slush the rocks in from old tanks, before adding to the new tank. You will have a lot of detritus trapped in them, and it will make the new tank very cloudy if you do not do this imo. Also, helps to see what you are doing as far as aquascaping goes. Very frustrating trying to do rockwork in cloudy water. Trust me on that one.... We're going to be doing a tank change when I get home from this trip and I like this idea -- thanks p.s. - hope everyone is enjoying the weather, and what's to come, up there. It's 75 and sunny here today :-) Edited January 31, 2011 by Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmatt56 January 31, 2011 Author Share January 31, 2011 Just for clarification, the 180 I'm purchasing is an established FOWLR system and the rock contained within it is 100% cured. Yes, it is coming from another location. Thanks, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 We're going to be doing a tank change when I get home from this trip and I like this idea -- thanks p.s. - hope everyone is enjoying the weather, and what's to come, up there. It's 75 and sunny here today :-) ^NOT fair!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowieReefer84 January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 Just for clarification, the 180 I'm purchasing is an established FOWLR system and the rock contained within it is 100% cured. Yes, it is coming from another location. Thanks, Matt O.... Transfering the 90 all at once should be fine than. Use new sand and mb7/digest, and you should not have a cycle. Skim extra wet for the first week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 Based on the new info, this is how I would revise my previous recommendation: Before the tank arrives: Make 120G 140-150G of fresh saltwater that's mixed and the same temp as my 90G (allows room for error, this always takes more water than you think, especially when you take sump and equipment water volumes into accoung and having extra doesn't hurt anything) Purchase 180 pounds of Nature's Ocean Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Reef Substrate (fresh live sand)* Make the required electrical connections Day of the move: Place base rock from the (new) existing 180 in new tank How long will the LR be out of water from the previous FOWLR tank? You will likely see some die-off regardless since the LR usually has a lot of sponges in it and they don't like air. Also, the longer it is out of water the more other stuff in the rock will die as well. What this translates into is that you will likely see a cycle, the magnitude of it depends on how long the LR is out of water and how much live stuff is on the LR to start with. Add the new live sand Add 35G of new saltwater to the tank I don't understand what the purpose of the split is, it doesn't really matter when you add new water. I would probably add all the water that I could out of the 90 (down to 6" or so to keep the fish covered, but also make it easier to catch them after you get the LR out, discard this water afterwards), then top off with freshly mixed salt water. I would put a plate or something on the sand to pour the water into to keep dust and sediment down as much as possible while adding water. Placing corals and rock will be much harder when you can't see it Move ALL the saltwater from the 90G to the new 180G Move the 90G live rock the new 180G tank Be as gentle as you can when getting down near the sand bed, fish are harder to catch if you cannot see them. Move the corals, fish, and inverts from the 90G to the 180G SLOWLY add the remaining gallons of new saltwater to fill the tank After everything is okay in a month... watch for signs of a cycle, have lots of water made up just in case you need to do water changes. Remember if ammonia and nitrites are building up, you need to do >50% water changes at a frequency that is less than the build-up rate to prevent levels from rising further. Move 54G live rock to the newly established 180 Acclimate the live fish, corals, and inverts from the 54 to the newly established 180 So here are my questions: *Do I need the new live sand? Can I combine new live with new dry aragonite? Yes. Honestly, I have never noticed a real difference with the prepackaged live sands and dry sand. Especially if you have a lot of already established LR. Can I use existing 90G sand? Yes, but do what Grav said. **Is this plan too aggressive? Since it isn't new LR, I don't think so. Ideally you would do it as Tom said above, but time and physical space suffer when done that way. ***Can you offer any advice or recommendations to this plan? Thanks!!! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 I say ditch the old water, make a new tank full of water, and then transfer it over using the old tank to shake out the rock and rinse out the sand. You will then have fully cured and cleaned live rock and sand in your new system and won't have a cycle. I've done it this way numerous times and the only time I ever had an issue was when the rock was so dirty that I couldn't rinse the rock out at all (the summer home for a school tank in which they drastically overfed everything - about 1/4" of detritus on the bottom including the skeleton from a mouse that had crawled in and died). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 January 31, 2011 Share January 31, 2011 One caveat - if you leave the rock out of the water too long then it will cause a problem when you reintroduce it, so if the tanks are in different places, then lift it out of one and into the other. If the new tank is going where the old tank is, drain off the water from the old tank into a container, transfer the rock into there, then swish it around before putting it into the new tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmatt56 February 1, 2011 Author Share February 1, 2011 WOW! Lots of good info! The 180G is going in a different room in my house than the 90 is currently located (same floor). I want to use the existing 180G tank water to clean out the 180G live rock. I plan to transfer the LARGE pieces I want to keep in 5G buckets with 180G water to keep them submerged as long as possible. Realistically, I only plan to use 5 or 6 of the VERY LARGE and a couple flat and tonga rocks in the new tank. The remaining live rock will be transported in a large Rubbermaid bin with water on the bottom and damp towels on top. I'll make new water (or transport 180G water) to keep them live for future sale. I want to clean it with 180G water before I move it, transport it in buckets of water, and then introduce in the new tank. The existing 90G live rocks will be going straight from the 90G to the 180G. They will be out of the water for less than a minute. I like the idea of using new sand to keep things simple. Do I rinse dry sand with tap water, rodi water, or saltwater? I may do a 50/50 mix with live sand. I used live sand for the 90 and there was no cycle after introducing cultured live rock. I'm thinking 50/50 would make it a little cheaper. Fish and corals. I thought I would split the water (35 new saltwater and then 50/60G existing 90G water to essentially perform a water change. I thought slowly filling the tank with remaining fresh saltwater would be a better acclimation since it would be added slowly to the mix. The idea of acclimating all the fish and corals was daunting. Does anyone have a 50G or 100G mixing bucket, tank, or aquarium I can borrow to prepare the fresh, new saltwater? Thanks for all the advice - you guys are awesome! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 February 1, 2011 Share February 1, 2011 Matt, how long do you need it for? I have a 300 gallon rubbermaid stock tank that you can borrow but you'll need to pick it up from my house and also drain it of water (there's a couple of inches of water on the bottom still from the summer). I also have a 125 gallon drum that you could borrow, but again, you'd need to pick it up from my house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 February 1, 2011 Share February 1, 2011 Oh, and I'm in Herndon, VA, near Dulles Airport, 20171. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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