Tank Crash After Installing Sump

[Antsh]

Well, I got everything set up and started up my new 20L sump. I noticed that my tuxedo urchin started acting funny. He dropped all of the things he was carrying and wasn't moving as much as usual. I also noticed that my two ocellaris's were staying at the bottom of the tank.

 

Two days ago the urchin died... so, I took the sump offline and am just running my tank. The fish still aren't acting completely normal, but they are moving about more.

 

I'm not sure if this is related, but I also noticed another brown diatom bloom after installing the sump.

 

I did notice that there was a small ammonia spike after installing the sump. I'm not sure if I stirred up the sandbed, or what caused it. It didn't last for very long, but I'm thinking maybe that killed the urchin. All of my other inverts are acting normal, though. Plus, its been a few days since the spike, and my fish still aren't acting completely normal. I also notice a large amount of corraline algae seems to have died...

 

Does anyone know why my tank would start to die after installing a sump? I made sure the salinity and temperature were matched up, so I'm not sure what would cause this. It's kind of disheartening since the tank has been running fine for a few months :-/

 

[Der ABT]

what was in teh tank prior, did you wash it out with anything. Same goes for the tubing, what kind, new, used etc..

 

a little more info would help.

 

was the sump jsut water no sand, Ive changed my sump 3 times now (seem was old on one, then to a tote bin, got rid of ghetto tote for a 29g) and i saw no ill effects even with adding sand to my refugium.

 

was the pump you used for a return cleaned etc,

 

sorry to hear about the troubles but its like doing a water change and shouldnt affect things like you described, i hope you find the cause. I may also check for stray voltage in the tank. Stirring up the sand bed enough can definately be a bad thing but if its only a few months old it should have a ton of stuff to release.

 

give us a little more info and hopefully we can narrow it down

[Antsh]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Everything was brand new. I did a freshwater test run with the return pump, but I didn't try to clean it with anything. The tubing was this poly stuff I got from my LFS. The only livestock I have (that I added myself) are the two ocellaris, a few dwarf hermit crabs, some different types of snails, and the now deceased urchin.

 

I got the 20L new, but I did spray it with some vinegar/water and wiped it off, just to clean the glass. It was dry before I added any water, though.

 

The water did appear to be cloudy after turning the return pump on. I assumed it was microbubbles, but maybe it was bacteria/algae...

Edited September 15, 2010 by Antsh

[Coral Hind]

What size was the display tank?

How was the skimmer reacting after the sump was online?

What are the other parameters like pH and salinity?

 

When you added the new sump you would have added extra saltwater for the volume increase. Was that water properly mixed?

 

As soon as you noticed trouble you should have performed a large water change. I would recommend adding a poly-filter or carbon in case it is a contamination issue.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Coral Hind

[Antsh]

I did add carbon a few days ago.

 

The display tank is a 46 gallon bow front. I didn't notice any change to skimmate production. I actually need to take the skimmer apart b/c it doesn't appear to be producing the same amount of bubbles as it used to.

 

The SPG is about 1.025 and my girlfriend (who's at home with the tank) just told me that the pH appears to be 8.0.

 

Here are some parameters that she reported today:

Nitrate: 40

Nitrite: 0

Alkalinity: 300PH: 8.0

 

I try to keep the nitrates at 20ppm or lower. Which is the main reason I installed the sump. After installing it, I tested and saw the nitrates had dropped a lot. I also had some chaeto and a light bulb in the sump to help. I'm not too sure why the they are so high right now, but since they were so low when the urchin was sick, I'm not sure if they are to blame. In the past, I've had 40ppm nitrate and all of my inverts seemed perfectly normal.

 

[Der ABT]

did you use a hydrometer or a refractometer, sometimes those hydrometers are waay off or have a random bubble in them.

and an decrease in bubbles usually hints at a lower salinity or the air input getting blocked up.

 

hmm with everything new and being test run doesnt sound like thats the problem.

 

the vinegar bath is a good idea for everything so you did right by that, i may soak the pump and tubing a little.

 

hopefully Coralhind can come up with some more things....

[zygote2k]

adding more water to an existing system is an unlikely cause for your crash. it sounds like something else happened and it's just a coincidence.

[gwweber]

darn getting ready to add a 55 gal sump to my 75 which has a small sump in the stand. Was going to switch them out. may have to think a bit on this one

[Coral Hind]

darn getting ready to add a 55 gal sump to my 75 which has a small sump in the stand. Was going to switch them out. may have to think a bit on this one

 

You'll be fine. I think Antsh experienced something far from the norm.

[Antsh]

I'll probably try again this weekend... I suppose I'll go slow and hope the same thing doesn't happen again.

[Der ABT]

maybe you should try doing a water change and put some of the new water in the tank, and then take some of the water you took out of the main tank and put it in the sump.

 

or try putting some water in the sump with the pumps and all sitting in there but not running for a day and test that water to see if there is something in there.

 

I hope it goes well for you and it was just a freak occurance.

[Antsh]

That's actually what I did last time. I siphoned water out of the DT into the sump, then added new water to the DT.

 

Could a sudden temperature change have caused my problems? The tank normally runs at 78, but it dropped to 76 when I turned the sump on. I was trying to get the heater back to a good setting, because the extra water volume meant I had to turn it up. So, I think the tank topped out at 79 or so.

 

I'm still trying to get the temperature back to normal. It was 78 last night, and this morning it was almost 80.

[Dragon Eye]

Did you not heat your water change water?

[Antsh]

Yeah, but I guess it naturally cooled down running through the sump. I'm sure it would have gone down more than 2 degrees if the water was room temperature.

[Coral Hind]

I would recommend getting a good electronic temp controller. If you are using the one built into the heater it can cause some big swings as they are not very accurate.

 

 

[BowieReefer84]

Only having 2 clown fish, an urchin, and some clean up crew in a 46 gallon tank should not have your nitrate at 20-40.

 

How often / how much do you feed your tank?

What do you feed your tank?

What type of water do you use, RO, distilled, tap?

Did you remove the urchin when it died (they do not do well with high nitrates)? They contain toxins too . . . .

 

Read these:

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=497+530+591&pcatid=591

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-08/rhf/index.php

[Antsh]

I feed about twice a week using these small pellets I got from BRK. I can't remember the brand right now.

 

I've actually been using tap water for top offs and water changes. I've been saving up for a filtering system, but haven't been able to get one yet. I've tested the tap water for nitrates and it came up with zero. I also use Amquel+ and Novaqua+ and I get a zero reading for chlorine after using those two products.

 

I think I may go purchase some RO/DI water just to get the sump up and running, in case the water is the culprit. The tank's been perfectly healthy for months, though, so I'm not sure if its the water :-/

[BowieReefer84]

I feed about twice a week using these small pellets I got from BRK. I can't remember the brand right now.

 

I've actually been using tap water for top offs and water changes. I've been saving up for a filtering system, but haven't been able to get one yet. I've tested the tap water for nitrates and it came up with zero. I also use Amquel+ and Novaqua+ and I get a zero reading for chlorine after using those two products.

 

I think I may go purchase some RO/DI water just to get the sump up and running, in case the water is the culprit. The tank's been perfectly healthy for months, though, so I'm not sure if its the water :-/

 

 

I used tap water for the first 2 years on my tank. That won't kill things imo. Also, it doesn't sound like you are feeding too much (I feed way more than twice a week) You didn't say if you removed the urchin. The nitrates probably killed the urchin. If not removed this may have impacted the fish. I would just keep doing water changes maybe like 10% twice a week for a couple weeks. You should be fine. I would bet the addition of the sump has zero to do with your problems.

 

I am wondering why your nitrates are so high? Do you trust your test kit?

[Antsh]

I did remove the urchin has soon as I noticed it was dead. It wasn't really decomposed at all.

 

I use the API liquid drops and some test strips. They both report similar numbers (hard to tell if they're exactly right, because the strips go in intervals of 10, but both tests are close).

[Origami]

How new was the saltwater that you added to account for the new sump volume. If it was freshly mixed, it could have still been rather caustic causing your tank parameters to make a sudden shift. The ammonia spike could have been caused by organisms dying, rather than the other way around. It can work both ways. Organisms die ==> Ammonia spikes ==> more organisms die.

[Coral Hind]

The cloudy water event you mentioned sounds like there was a serious difference between the parameters of the two volumes of water before they mixed.

 

If your tap water contains chloramine it would be breaking down into chlorine and ammonia. Your replacement tap water may contain straight ammonia seperate from the added chloramine. Either way you would be putting nitrogen right back into your tank which makes it harder to reduce the nitrates. It could also cause an ammonia spike when the water is changed creating a situation as Origami mentioned above.

[Antsh]

I see. Would that situation also cause a new diatom bloom?

[Origami]

The cloudy water event you mentioned sounds like there was a serious difference between the parameters of the two volumes of water before they mixed.

 

If your tap water contains chloramine it would be breaking down into chlorine and ammonia. Your replacement tap water may contain straight ammonia seperate from the added chloramine. Either way you would be putting nitrogen right back into your tank which makes it harder to reduce the nitrates. It could also cause an ammonia spike when the water is changed creating a situation as Origami mentioned above.

 

Good points. I missed the later post about the water turning cloudy. If it wasn't microbubbles, the alkalinity, pH and other parameters could have been way off.

 

Antsh, you still didn't answer the question of how long you waited in between mixing up your new salt water and using it to fill the sump. If it had not aged (i.e. stabilized), it could have still been very caustic (= pH very high) because it had not had time to absorb atmospheric CO2 (which brings pH down). When added to your tank, this could cause a precipitation of calcium carbonate (the cloudiness) and a crash in the pH, resulting in a lot of stress on your livestock.

[Antsh]

Sorry, I missed that question. It was left out about four hours or so. I usually wait until the salt mix isn't cloudy anymore when I do my PWC.

[Origami]

Sorry, I missed that question. It was left out about four hours or so. I usually wait until the salt mix isn't cloudy anymore when I do my PWC.

 

I'll bet that's it, then. That's not long enough and the solution was probably still caustic. Combined with the relatively large water volume, it resulted in a drastic change in your tank parameters that stressed your livestock, resulting in some death.

 

I normally wait at least 24 hours and more often 48 or 72 hours. If on the shorter side, I'll force the matter by putting in an airstone and aerating the water so the mix stabilizes. Even when I wait longer, I have a pump come on in the mix tank, agitating the water at least 15 minutes every 2 hours, just to keep the solution homogeneous.