jamesbuf February 19, 2008 Share February 19, 2008 (edited) I got my deltec back from Raf so I can finally rerun the experiment I did before. For those of you that didn't read it in the grey seas thread, I got a great deal on a deltec AP851 and ran it side by side against my Grey Seas Custom 6 (Same as Standard 6, just 3" taller). The deltec didn't produce any skimmate for the first few days and I though this was because the previous owner used the fancy D-D skimmer cleaner on it before he sold it to me. Well I ran it for 2 weeks and it still didn't produce anything, all while the Custom 6 had to be emptied out 2 or 3 times. The Deltec did collect goop inside the neck, but it never formed a head and produced skimmate in the cup. I used the instructions from the Deltec homepage: http://www.deltecusa.us/docs/APSeries.pdf so I know I was running everything properly. I didn't have many fish back then, so I postulated that what minimal organics were in the water column were being pulled out faster by the meshmod of the Custom 6. I want to see if this was a fluke or not, so I'm running the test again. I have many many more fish now, so there should be enough organics for both skimmers to work. This time around I cleaned out both skimmers so both would start from scratch. As you can see in the pics, neither one of the skimmer is "broken in" and the bubble columns are very erratic. Neither has formed a head for several hours. Here are some pics: Now I turned the recirc pumps on. As you can see, neither of the bubble columns is very concentrated at this point. I'll need to tune them in the next few days, and then I'll follow up with periodic pictures of my results. Edited February 19, 2008 by jamesbuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrientBlueReef February 19, 2008 Share February 19, 2008 What happens to the loser? Is this a fight to the death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gastone February 19, 2008 Share February 19, 2008 James, I don't even know how you would begin to go about "testing" skimmate comparison...density/color/odor. However, running the skimmers concurrently doesn't seem to be the way to go. If the water gets to skimmer A from the overflow first then A will pull out skimmate and skimmer B will be skimming clean water (it looks like the feed and return are both going to the same area). What if you ran them for say 2 weeks each, trying to maintain the exact same parameters (feeding/lighting/heat/et al). Then you could define parameters to compare skimmate, then invite WAMAS members over for blind taste tests. Garrett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gastone February 19, 2008 Share February 19, 2008 Edit: In truth it's kinda apples to oranges. The Deltec body has the advantage of being 8" in diameter with a significantly wider neck as well. That body can handle much more air than the GSA. So it comes down to the pump (and they look to be the same Eheim 1260???), so then it comes down to the impellar assembly and the venturi (to simplify). When all is said and done, can you flip flop the pumps and run the test again? G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuf February 20, 2008 Author Share February 20, 2008 What happens to the loser? Is this a fight to the death? If the GSA wins again, I'll probably meshmod the detec and run the experiment again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 February 20, 2008 Share February 20, 2008 James, I have an idea for testing the skimmate. It is very scientific and you could do blind samples to ensure that the validity of each test is not questionable due to bias based on name recognition. Take equal amounts of skimmate from each of the collection cups, pour them into some white styrofoam cups, equal amounts in both, heat them, and then serve them to people asking which brand of coffee they prefer. The one to produce the fastest vomiting is obviously the stronger skimmate! Seriously, though, I don't see how you can test them head-to-head unless you have them both on a gravity feed from your tank, directly off the overflow. This should theoretically give you similar samples of water and eliminate the problem of which one is getting to the gunk first. It's not perfect, but it's better than simply feeding them separately and not knowing which receives the dirtier water supply. Also probably not doable as this would require some replumbing of your tank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuf February 20, 2008 Author Share February 20, 2008 (edited) Edit: In truth it's kinda apples to oranges. The Deltec body has the advantage of being 8" in diameter with a significantly wider neck as well. That body can handle much more air than the GSA. So it comes down to the pump (and they look to be the same Eheim 1260???), so then it comes down to the impellar assembly and the venturi (to simplify). When all is said and done, can you flip flop the pumps and run the test again? G. Actually the GSA has a stronger pump than the Deltec. The GSA has an Eheim 1262 and the Deltec has a 1260. You can see here: http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/m...gory_Code=Eheim that the 1262 is about 50% stronger than the 1260. So I really don't consider this apples and oranges. Both the feed pumps are literally side by side, so the organics intake to each skimmer will be the same. Not actually the same because I'm using the recommended rate of inflow from each manufacture. The Deltec is receiving more inflow because that is what is recommended. So theoretically the Deltec should pull more out since it is getting more organics pushed through the skimmer. Basically my test isn't pitting GSA vs Deltec, its pitting pinwheel vs meshwheel. I woke up this morning and both skimmer has appeared to break in and were producing very tiny bubbles. I adjusted both skimmer accordingly before I left. I'll take some pics of the first days results and post them later on tonight. Dan, what is the air intake for the GSA skimmer with the 1262 pump? Edited February 20, 2008 by jamesbuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawns February 20, 2008 Share February 20, 2008 although there is more organic laden water entering the deltec, the gsa skimmer will have more bubble contact time. this is a result of the water staying in the column longer. additionally, you had already stated that the pump on the gsa is 50% larger. that too will increase contact time and the amount of air bubbles that will come in conact w/ the water that is in the skimmer longer. it will be interesting to see the results. i think that the skim from the gsa will be more efficient and the water leaving the skimmer will be of higher quality. maybe you could measure the tds or something similar of the water leaving each skimmer???? i think that would be a real test!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuf February 20, 2008 Author Share February 20, 2008 I readjusted/turned the skimmers tonight and will now start tracking their progress. Both cups are clean and I will post pics of the cups tomorrow night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandy7200 February 20, 2008 Share February 20, 2008 I'll be brief and to the point with my comments in this thread. James, your comparing a $1200 skimmer to a $575 one. The $575 one should be roughly half as good. Does it matter the pump, or the exact location of the pumps that are feeding the skimmer? Does it matter that one uses a 1262 and the other uses a 1260? Does it matter that one is grey and one is black? Does chamber size, flow rate and contact time matter? Does impeller style or how much air draw each skimmer pump pulls really matter? By all accounts the Deltec should smoke the Standard Six by two fold. Will it? All I can say is that those questions are questions I asked myself when designing the skimmer. These are test (along with many others) that I have performed on a even playing field. Proof is in the naD........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuf February 20, 2008 Author Share February 20, 2008 I'll be brief and to the point with my comments in this thread. James, your comparing a $1200 skimmer to a $575 one. The $575 one should be roughly half as good. Does it matter the pump, or the exact location of the pumps that are feeding the skimmer? Does it matter that one uses a 1262 and the other uses a 1260? Does it matter that one is grey and one is black? Does chamber size, flow rate and contact time matter? Does impeller style or how much air draw each skimmer pump pulls really matter? By all accounts the Deltec should smoke the Standard Six by two fold. Will it? All I can say is that those questions are questions I asked myself when designing the skimmer. These are test (along with many others) that I have performed on a even playing field. Proof is in the naD........ I guess the only thing that matters is which pulls out more crap from the water, which is what I'm trying to figure out. Even playing field? You saying I should be comparing the Standard 8 with this model Deltec? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandy7200 February 20, 2008 Share February 20, 2008 I guess the only thing that matters is which pulls out more crap from the water, which is what I'm trying to figure out. Even playing field? You saying I should be comparing the Standard 8 with this model Deltec? I just see everyone debating this or that. It's simply a drag race, let er rip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschflier February 20, 2008 Share February 20, 2008 (edited) I would suggest if the Deltec does not compare, to call the owner of Deltec and ask him if he would mind coming over to take a look and see why. After he gives his advice, ask if he could take a look at your setup and see if he might have any suggestions for getting your water parameters in line. After that maybe mention you would love to take a trip to see his castle in southern Germany and look at his setup for some ideas. If he is kind enough to accept all of these offers, take you to his brewery for some great German beer, lower the price %50 and improve his product so it skims against the competition, then I think you would have a clear winner. Edited February 20, 2008 by dschflier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman February 20, 2008 Share February 20, 2008 I think the way you have it set up is 'fair enough' ... this is not an exact, scientific trial. You're running each as close to manufacturer specs as you can - and ensuring as fair a shot at the organics as you can offer them both. Dan has a big point with $1200 vs. $600; if the competition is CLOSE, with the GSA behind - it's still a winner. If the GSA comes out on top - even by a fraction, then it's a slaughter rule game. The only other factor you could add in would be reliability - which one will still be producing skimmate 3 years from now?? I look forward to your unscientific results! bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rascal February 20, 2008 Share February 20, 2008 I think Borneman or someone came up with a way to measure skimmate by dehydrating it and then weighing the remaining (non-water) part of it. He had access to a chemistry lab with all kinds of neat toys to help him do this, but you might be able to try something like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuf February 21, 2008 Author Share February 21, 2008 (edited) Came home to these results: GSA Custom 6 after 24 hours: Deltec AP851 after 24 hours: The good news is that the Deltec is producing skimmate this time around. After retuning everything last night, the GSA was pulling stuff out within a couple hours. The Deltec wasn't forming a head in the neck when I went to sleep, so I was worried. Its produced skimmate but not that much. Its also diluted because the deltec seems to be collecting alot more condensation inside the cup than the GSA. Its also crazy to see how dirty the GSA neck and cup got in just a little over 24 hours. Since I setup the skimmer 2 nights ago, there really wasn't any skimmate that was pulled out of the tank since then, so I really expected this surge in skimmate since there had to be alot of organics in the water. I'm going to let the skimmers go until one of the cups needs emptying. Then compare the results in clear bowls. Edited February 21, 2008 by jamesbuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamal February 21, 2008 Share February 21, 2008 that supports what i already knew. we have access to a man with skimmer making skills who has created a way to suck the poop right out of the fish. with my current load my cup is still less than half full after a month because its all been taken up. whatever the results i am happy but it is interesting to see dans skimmer not only competing w/ a skimmer that costs twice as much but beating it so far. kudos dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuf February 21, 2008 Author Share February 21, 2008 Its still pretty early. I'm going to run this over some time so I can get extended results. After all is said and done, I'd be willing to loan the Deltec to someone with a Standard 8 so we could get results of that matchup too. Also, can any Deltec users PM me on any suggestions on how to cut down on the condensation inside the cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowerseller February 21, 2008 Share February 21, 2008 Hey JB, I'm currently running one of Dan's S8's. I'm redoing all my plumbing and have taken it off line for now while I do it. If OK with Dan, since you've got the set up to do it, you can use this one. In the almost 2 weeks I ran it before, it produced some pretty nasty naD. This one has a working drain in the collection cup, but still had to be removed to clean the neck. Gotta love that twist off collection cup that seals. I think it uses the same size moded pump the S6 uses but do't now enough about these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boret February 21, 2008 Share February 21, 2008 Cool thread James!! Thanks for putting this test together!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami February 21, 2008 Share February 21, 2008 Great stuff, James. Thanks! I like Dan's comment about this being a drag race... let r rip. Zoom zoom, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuf February 24, 2008 Author Share February 24, 2008 Hey JB, I'm currently running one of Dan's S8's. I'm redoing all my plumbing and have taken it off line for now while I do it. If OK with Dan, since you've got the set up to do it, you can use this one. In the almost 2 weeks I ran it before, it produced some pretty nasty naD. This one has a working drain in the collection cup, but still had to be removed to clean the neck. Gotta love that twist off collection cup that seals. I think it uses the same size moded pump the S6 uses but do't now enough about these. Thanks Chip, but I plan on running these two side by side for at least a few weeks. If you still don't have your Standard 8 hooked up by then, I'll gladly take it and run the test at my place. I took a study break to go take pics and update everyone. Here are the results: As you can see, I'll have to empty the GSA cup today, so I'll empty both. You can't tell which produced more since the Deltec cup is much larger. Pics inside the GSA cup: Pic inside the Deltec cup: Still way too early to compare the skimmers in my opinion. I'll empty them into clear containers and will post pics on the quantity and quality of the two skimmates, even scrape out the gunk inside the skimmer necks. Looks about even right now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuf March 9, 2008 Author Share March 9, 2008 Update again. Here are today's pics. I hadn't cleaned out the cups in around 2 weeks or so, and both skimmers had an incredible amount of gunk caked inside the necks. To be honest, both skimmers are pulling a TON of crap out of my water. My corals and entire tank look great. At this point there isn't a clear winner. The only discernible difference is that the Deltec collects more crud in the neck than the GSA, but the skimmates look pretty much identical. Both smell absolutely horrible. I stunk up my entire basement cleaning out both cups earlier today. Gonna let them run for another week then stop the race. Not sure what to do now since there wasn't a clear winner. Maybe sell both and upgrade to a standard 8 with 2 meshwheel pumps?? hehe. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM March 9, 2008 Share March 9, 2008 Not sure what to do now since there wasn't a clear winner. Maybe sell both and upgrade to a standard 8 with 2 meshwheel pumps?? hehe. We'll see. James, I'd have to disagree about you saying there isn't a clear winner. Since they both seem to pulling out equal amounts of gunk and the GSA costing half as much as the Deltec, I'd have to say it's the clear winner. Just my 2 cents..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschflier March 9, 2008 Share March 9, 2008 I agree. cost should always been incorporated into a decision. Especially if they have similar results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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