tanks in apartments (not ground floor)

[treesprite]

Just wondering about sizes of tanks people have in apartments. I think the floor support issue has been discussed plenty, but in reality, what do people actually have that they aren't worried will end up being a problem (aside from technical logic, what "seems" like too much)? Mostly I'm wondering about tanks 75 and up.

[jason the filter freak]

in building built in the last 10 or probably 20 years upto about 120 total system gallons should be ok in most cases.

[steveoutlaw]

in building built in the last 10 or probably 20 years upto about 120 total system gallons should be ok in most cases.

 

 

Jason - what are you basing this on???

[lanman]

Just wondering about sizes of tanks people have in apartments. I think the floor support issue has been discussed plenty, but in reality, what do people actually have that they aren't worried will end up being a problem (aside from technical logic, what "seems" like too much)? Mostly I'm wondering about tanks 75 and up.

 

So much will depend on how you set up the tank. Give 'power out' a test run. Plenty of space in your sump for the siphoned water from the tank? I have a 58-gallon tank, and a 40 gallon sump with only 20 gallons of water in it. I can easily handle power out - despite my WavySeas siphoning about 4" of water out of the tank. My 33-gallon frag tank has a 20-gallon sump, with about 15 gallons of water in it. That one I'm not so sure about right now. I haven't tried it since I put a new pump on it, and the business end rides a little lower in the tank right now - I haven't taped it up higher. People talk about putting air holes in to prevent siphons, but I haven't tried it yet. But again - I'm not in an apartment; tanks are on the basement level. An overflow would just be an inconvenience, not a disaster of un-neighborly proportions. Have some people look over your plumbing setup. A new set of eyes might spot a potential problem you don't see.

 

bob

[jamal]

power loads will be more of a problem then weight. i kept a 125 in an apartment with no sump. no weight issues arose but i had 3 or 4 power outages in the apartment from the metal halide lights. 3 x 150 watt lights

[treesprite]

I wasn't thinking about power, just the realities of living in an apartment building and having no way to know what I'm putting the weight on. The building is 30-something years old. I'm not so worried about what I have, but that I want something bigger when the opportunity presents itself.

 

I don't think I'm using enough power to cause an overload in the building, but there are a whole lot of plugs. I've got 3 6-socket power strips, each coming from a different wall outlet. I'm not using halides, and don't have a chiller which I imagine would be a lot of drain.

[Almon]

I would be much more concerned about the water that gets spilled onto the floor while doing water changes or even just cleaning the tank. Spilling 10g on the floor because you walk away and do something else for 2 minutes is not an impossibility. Let's look at the numbers.

 

55g tank

80lbs Tank and Stand

60lbs Rock and Sand

460lbs Water

600lbs Total weight

4 sq ft = 150lbs per sq ft

 

220g tank

400lbs Tank and Stand

375lbs Rock and Sand

1825lbs Water

2600lbs Total weight

12 sq ft = 217lbs per sq ft

 

I submit that a large male standing with feet together applies more weight to one spot of the floor than a filled aquarium. Certainly a residential building is designed to support the distributed weight across the floor. Again, I would be more concerned with the water the gets spilled and drips into your downstairs neighbors living room and onto his 60" Plasma HD Widesceen television.

[jason the filter freak]

Nice Almon best math based argument I've seen yet.

 

 

 

Jason - what are you basing this on???

 

Previous data from similar inquires

 

Also forest make sure your tank lies against a load bearing wall if possible and across floor joists.

[GaryL]

Nice Almon best math based argument I've seen yet.

 

 

 

Previous data from similar inquires

 

Also forest make sure your tank lies against a load bearing wall if possible and across floor joists.

 

Exactly...i have a 150 and i pulled part of the carpet to see how the subfloor laid down... no probs as of yet

[flowerseller]

I would think if it fits through the door it will fit on the floor.

Plus, it's not like it's going to fall on you.

[Nitro Junkie]

I gottat tell ya that my friends 150 was causing some sagging issues on his recently built home. His house is on a crawl space and after the tank was up and running happend to be under the house and there was noticable sag enough to make him want to brace it.

[bigJPDC]

in building built in the last 10 or probably 20 years upto about 120 total system gallons should be ok in most cases.

 

way to go out on a limb there.

 

should be

ok

most cases

 

there isn't a scenario that doesn't apply to your criteria.

[treesprite]

Nice Almon best math based argument I've seen yet.

 

 

 

Previous data from similar inquires

 

Also forest make sure your tank lies against a load bearing wall if possible and across floor joists.

 

 

I don't know how to tell. I am thinking the walls between apartments are more likely to be load bearing than the walls between rooms inside of an apartment. THe wall Im by is one that is the long way of the building, not front to back of building.

 

I have had my instances of major water spills. Last time though was "only" a gallon and the neighbors called the maintanence guy for a few drips that were dry before the guy ever got to them to look at it. I think it's a matter of were the water spills and if it disperses over teh carpet or is all in one spot on the carpet... I lost 15 gallons once and no one complained of leaking, and had numerous instances of mishaps of a gallon or so over the years with no neighbor complaints.

[Charlie97L]

I don't know how to tell. I am thinking the walls between apartments are more likely to be load bearing than the walls between rooms inside of an apartment. THe wall Im by is one that is the long way of the building, not front to back of building.

 

I have had my instances of major water spills. Last time though was "only" a gallon and the neighbors called the maintanence guy for a few drips that were dry before the guy ever got to them to look at it. I think it's a matter of were the water spills and if it disperses over teh carpet or is all in one spot on the carpet... I lost 15 gallons once and no one complained of leaking, and had numerous instances of mishaps of a gallon or so over the years with no neighbor complaints.

 

honestly, i wouldn't go over 75, and build in spill redundancies. but the above post is right, if it is a 1 bedroom, your whole apt might be on 1 or 2 circuits, which may not jive with running a tank larger than 75ish.

 

it would be crucial to make sure that the tank is parallel to the joists... just get a stud finder, and you should be able to tell.

 

also, something to consider, generally houses built 30 years ago were better constructed than houses now, so i don't think jason's argument of the "newer" the better would really be applicable. they weren't churning them out like mcnuggets in the late 70s/early 80s.

[Nitro Junkie]

I'm trying to find it but it was either a post with a link from here or an article i read. It was about tank sizes and how a floor reacts to shock loads vs static loads. If I remember correctly it was something like you could move a heavy object across a floor (shock load) and the floor would be fine but the same floor with a havy object sitting on it reacts differently. I wish I could find what it is i am looking for.........

[Charlie97L]

I'm trying to find it but it was either a post with a link from here or an article i read. It was about tank sizes and how a floor reacts to shock loads vs static loads. If I remember correctly it was something like you could move a heavy object across a floor (shock load) and the floor would be fine but the same floor with a havy object sitting on it reacts differently. I wish I could find what it is i am looking for.........

 

yup. i've read about that too. i know almon's math, while seemingly correct, isn't the same as a person, even though the lbs/ft2 is similar.

 

it's like how a 100 lb dumbell feels heavier than a 100 lb person.

[Almon]

it's like how a 100 lb dumbell feels heavier than a 100 lb person.

 

that's cute

 

Science vs Fuzzy Logic

 

So, I can't figure out the riddle. Which is heavier?

 

100lb dumbell or 100lb person?

 

[extreme_tooth_decay]

Nice Almon best math based argument I've seen yet.

 

 

This is actually a terrible argument, and one of many myths.

 

See this link: Aquarium Weights

 

and in particular, see the myth:

"I weigh 250 pounds and can stand on one foot anywhere on the floor without crashing through the floor. My foot is about 36 square inches (0.25 sq ft) so that is 1000 psf. Therefore Kevin's 40 psf makes no sense."

 

(Bottom line: A floor's ability to hold up 200 pounds in a small area say nothing about it's ability to hold up 200 pounds in many small areas)

 

tim

[rdavidw]

There are so many factors. High-rise or garden style apartment? High-rises are typically constructed with high-tensile steel reinforced concrete and I-beams - very strong. The garden style apartments are typically constructed of wood, much like a single family home. Under the flooring runs joists (wood planks on there sides). The biggest factor here is how your tank sits on these joists. If they run the same way as your tank then it will only rest on one or two (18

[treesprite]

they are garden-style apartments, and are brick building (in fact one of the walls in the apartment is actually painted over cinderblock). The tank is along a long wall, which happens to be the center wall of the building going lengthwise... there's really nowhere else to put it.

 

I myself posted a link to an articel about this subject, but articles are articles, not the experinece of people who could tell me directly about their experience.

[bigJPDC]

ETD - that is an excellent article - I just bookmarked it.

 

jp

['Ric]

I have a 54g with a 15g sump on the 7th floor of a highrise. I wasn't worried about the weight in this concrete building, but I think my heart stopped a couple weeks ago when the return bulkhead fitting on the bottom of my tank broke off in my hand and water started gushing out. As I fruitlessly tried to slow down the flow, I couldn't help but think of 54 gallons of water running under the wall into my next door neighbor's brand new carpet, liability, etc. Luckily the water only drained from the overflow cavity and not all 54 gallons. Much of it also went into the sump, which came close to overflowing. When I fired everything back up after bypassing the return, the sump showed it was almost two gallons low.

 

Once when we had a long power outage, my 15g sump filled up to within 1/2 inch of the top. So, I put my Mag 7 return pump on an UPS - only the pump and nothing else as I want it to run as long as possible off the batteries before they are drained.

 

 

honestly, i wouldn't go over 75, and build in spill redundancies. but the above post is right, if it is a 1 bedroom, your whole apt might be on 1 or 2 circuits, which may not jive with running a tank larger than 75ish.

 

it would be crucial to make sure that the tank is parallel to the joists... just get a stud finder, and you should be able to tell.

 

also, something to consider, generally houses built 30 years ago were better constructed than houses now, so i don't think jason's argument of the "newer" the better would really be applicable. they weren't churning them out like mcnuggets in the late 70s/early 80s.

 

NONONONONO! The tank should be perpendicular to the joists, so that it spans over as many joists as possible. You don't want all its weight on just a couple joists. Also, if the joists are perpendicular to a party wall it is also probably a bearing wall.

 

The 40psf live load minimum (30psf is alowed in some cases) is calculated uniformly across the entire tributary area of any given structural member. Using a stud finder is a good idea, though. A tank really should be treated as a point load if it crosses perpendicularly; maybe actual psf if it is longitudinal.

 

I run my power to two different outlets, but I haven't bothered to check if they are on two breakers or the same one. So far no trips though.

 

'Ric

 

PS That article linked above is a pretty good one. It sounds like it has fairly right without doing any math.

Edited September 7, 2007 by 'Ric

[Rascal]

ETD - that is an excellent article - I just bookmarked it.

 

jp

 

 

Me too. I thought I did a lot of research before setting up my tank but I missed that one.

 

My 150 runs parallel to the joists, with 1 end about 6 inches from a bearing wall. Since it sits over a crawl space, I was able to reinforce the joists with 6 floor jacks sitting on cinder blocks. 1 year and so far so good, but I really wish I had gone through the trouble of just doubling up the joists before I set the tank up.