Months of struggle (high res pictures, sorry long post)

[Javed Aman]

Hi All,

Hoping you can help me with the current issues I'm having with my tank. Seems like a few of us might be suffering from reef issues these past few months. 

The setup:

Aquarium:
Started 07/2019
75 gallon Aquarium Masters + 20 gallon Trigger Systems sump
Reef Angel Controller
70 Lbs dry rock (old from a previous tank, but left in a tub for 2 years)
Barebottom with Starboard

Lighting:
3 x Radion 15 Pro (10am - 8pm, ramp up down, peak 45%)
4 x T5 - Ati Blue plus and actinic (11:30 - 3:30)
Kessil H160 Fuge Light 11:00pm - 9:00am

Peak light at 250 Par for most SPS except top which is 350 - measured with seneye

Basic Parameter Management:
2 x 200W BRS Titanium heater
Fuge - Chaeto and Gracilaria (though hair algae tend to grow over it)
RLSS r6i skimmer (30% pump speed)
GHL Doser 2.1 SA for Alk/Cal
Large MarinePure block

Flow:
2 x Sicce 3.0 for return
2 x Maxspect Gyre 330 (OGC -20 - 40%)
1 x Vortech MP40 ES

Maintenance:
6 Gallon waterchange weekly (unless there is an emergency)
occasionally run carbon via bag in sump
dosing 5ml Red Sea AB+, Reef Roids, or Phyto a couple of times a week
Feeding 2x NLS pellets + 3x mix of frozen brine, mysis, calanus daily

I've dosed (very slowly about 1/8 dosage) of Dr. Tim's Refresh in the past. Currently, I'm dosing a little bit of Eco-balance because I suspect there might be some biological imbalance.

Livestock:
4 x Dispar Anthias
1 x Orange Storm Clown
1 x Skunk Cleaner Shrimp
1 x Mexican Turbo Snails
Many Trochus Snails
Many scarlet and red leg hermits

When I started the tank, things were growing well: coralline algae were growing, sponges were taking over, and trochus snails were spawning regularly. Most of the growth of the corals was from the first 5 - 8 months of the tank's life.

About two months ago I posted (on R2R) about a sudden RTN/STN  event in my tank. After some research, it may have been a combination of things. My coral colors were pale for a few months, but everything was encrusting and growing. I never registered Nitrate for the first year of the tank, but my phosphates were always high (as much as 1.5ppm at one point, but usually between 0.1 < 0.5). In terms of the sudden STN event, I suspect it was related to me changing filter socks with socks that were washed with this new "splashless bleach". I always rinse socks off before I put them in, but it may not have been sufficient. I also had turned off my skimmer that night because I had just cleaned it. There is a chance there was a drop in the dissolved O2 levels. The fish also looked ticked off that day. Either way, I'm not 100% sure what could have caused it, but it looked like my actions of large water change, running carbon, and running polyfilter at least slowed it down initially.

To be honest the tank has not recovered. The zoas in my tank have not opened since. Some do half-open occasionally, but almost all of them just say closed. The SPS have become increasingly paler, and some have more STN. I stopped dosing alkalinity and Ca over a month ago because I saw that it kept rising because the corals weren't up taking it. Over the course of two months, the alkalinity has dropped from 9.5 to about 7.7 dkH.

Current Parameters:
1.025 - salinity measured by both calibrated refractometer and Milwaukee handheld
7.7 dkH - measured by Hanna
480 Ca - measured by Salifert
1320 Magnesium - measured by Salifert
7.9 - 8.1 - daily pH swing measured by my controller
78F - 79F - temperature measured and managed by my controller
0 - ammonia/ammonium (salifert, tropic marin)
4ppm < X <10pmm - Red Sea pro nitrate test
0.04 - phosphate measured by hanna

ATI-ICP test concerns from 02/10/21 : High Lithium (1127 µg/l should be 161.8 µg/l), high silicon (293.3 µg/l should be 95.17 µg/l), high Aluminum (26.92 µg/l should be 0.10 µg/l) , and low iodine (27.87 µg/l should be 61.86 µg/l).

I've run cuprisorb for about a week to try and lower the aluminum, but it has always been high because I use MarinePure blocks. I've read in the chemistry subforum that lithium can be pretty high because of salt mixes. To fix the iodine I added 4 drops of lugols (spread over 4 days), things didn't change except for the cleaner shrimp molting.

Most of the damage seems to be towards the SPS: Notice the paleness of the tissue and also the parts where the tissue is missing entirely. This tends to be areas near the base or tips (depending on the coral)

Regarding the Zoas, I've only attached one picture but that's what nearly all of them look like.

 

Sorry for the long post; it's been a few weeks coming. I'm sort of at my wit's end and don't know what could be going on. Obviously, there are some stability issues with the number of waterchanges I've done, but really shouldn't be that dramatic. I do have some LPS and they for the most part seem okay as of now. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[BtmDweller]

Drop the ca and raise alk. Using a doser is also key. Stop dosing everything except alk, ca as needed. Need close to perfect stable numbers on two paras. The nonsense mixes and additives will cause havoc with swings in your tank. Adding in many variables.  Try limit phosphates through cleaner feeding. Rinsing frozen in rodi water etc. 

[Origami]

Interesting. I'm not sure if you used this particular product, but the MSDS for Clorox Splashless Bleach indicates that it includes sodium hydroxide in addition to sodium hypochlorite (which is present in regular bleach). 

 

Have you considered doing a couple of very large water changes as a way of exporting any possible, untested contaminants and resetting the water column?

[Javed Aman]

7 minutes ago, Origami said:

Interesting. I'm not sure if you used this particular product, but the MSDS for Clorox Splashless Bleach indicates that it includes sodium hydroxide in addition to sodium hypochlorite (which is present in regular bleach). 

 

Have you considered doing a couple of very large water changes as a way of exporting any possible, untested contaminants and resetting the water column?

Thank you for the reply. I've done a 40% waterchange in January after the incident. I then have done another 20% end of Jan and Feb. This is in conjunction with my regular 7% weekly waterchange. I did run carbon a couple of times as well as polyfilter as indicated in my original post (sorry it was probably hidden in a the wall of text). Sodium hydroxide ionizes into sodium and eventually water correct? I was more concerned because I read the splashless bleach actually has some surfactants in it. 

 

28 minutes ago, BtmDweller said:

Drop the ca and raise alk. Using a doser is also key. Stop dosing everything except alk, ca as needed. Need close to perfect stable numbers on two paras. The nonsense mixes and additives will cause havoc with swings in your tank. Adding in many variables.  Try limit phosphates through cleaner feeding. Rinsing frozen in rodi water etc. 

Thank you for the reply. How should I drop the Ca? The corals don't seem to be taking up any Calcium or Alk at this point. I've also read a lot on R2R that 7Alk is more preferred. I intentionally moved down from 9.5 based on suggestions research from the incident in Jan. 

[Origami]

Sodium hydroxide is NaOH. It is caustic and will add alkalinity, directly, combining with CO2 in the water to for the bicarbonate ion (HCO3-). It would cause a sudden shift in pH that can be hard on fish and other aquatic life. However, it's not nearly as detrimental as the chlorine ions (in the hypochlorite) in the bleach. The extended timeframe of this issue may be more indicative of severe injury and prolonged recovery in less than ideal water conditions. 

 

Big water changes - the bigger the better - are more effective to dilute pollutants than smaller, serial water changes. For example, a single 40% water change will dilute pollutants to 60% of their prevoius level. Two serial water changes of 20% would dilute pollutants to [(1-0.20)^2], 64% of their previous level. 

[Javed Aman]

Thank you for the thorough response. The bleach incident was nearly 2 months ago. It seems its affects would be more acute than chronic. However, I can do more water changes if you think that will help. 

[Origami]

The initial damage would most certainly be acute. However, the organism has to recover vitality while still competing in an environment full of bacteria and other microorganisms. Recovery can be slow. But, as our own ReefdUp (Nikki) has shown, the right conditions can lead to a full recovery or even very severely damaged corals. And, in real life, we see reefs damaged almost in an instant, taking years if not decades to recover (if ever). 

[BtmDweller]

Stop putting anything in except alk and when you need ca. Use salifert test kits. Eliminate all factors. Could it be a salt higher in ca?  

 

I like conditions closer to natural 8.5 and 420 to keep a variety of corals.  When I stray away from this I've noticed bleaching in more sensitive corals. Brought it back and no issues. Partly the swing, but some was over longer period. I try to be very very strict on not swinging. As much as I can be. I will swing to get it back on point though.  I guess I'm a hypocrite. 

 

I bleach my socks and have three of the largest marine pure blocks for over three years. With that said every system is different.  I run an extra rinse cycle and let them dry. 

 

I'd double up on the water changing. If possible the goal of 50% total volume a month through multiple changes. 

 

Get anal on nutrients. Don't feed brine shrimp unless teaching a fish to eat frozen. It has no nutritional value, it's candy. Mysis is great. Rinse the food with rodi.  Only a few corals actually need to be fed. Probably not in your tank.  Try preventing detritus build up in sump low flow areas in stacked rock. 

 

What's the rodi? I keep 0 TDS when making water.  Change filters regularly including the membrane about 1.5 year mark. Many people forget the membrane. 

 

One major issue I did have was redoing flooring polyurethane seeped from upstairs into the system. Didnt think it would even happen.  Got to the point could only see an inch into the tank.  Got in the mixing station also. Major water changes and swings for months.  Corals lived, lost some color and and a couple fish but bounced back. 

 

These are things I believe in. Others have luck doing things differently.  If you take any recommendations find a tank you like and follow what they're doing. And scientists are pretty smart as well. 

 

 

 

 

[Eric Mio]

+1 on checking the RODI. It's possible those contaminates from the ICP test are coming from your water source and getting though your RODI unit. Also make sure you're using a salt with similar parameters to what you're trying to achieve in your tank. You mentioned that you used to run Alk higher and have since been shooting for lower levels. If your salt's parameters aren't similar to your tank's parameters you'll be getting swings every time you do your water changes. I know salts like 

[Javed Aman]

Thank for the reply. I'm using Tropic Marin pro currently, it has lower Alk/Ca. 

From my understanding the NSW level of Alk is 7 dkH. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/ . Now the change was made based on suggestions from R2R. It seems like higher alk, low nutrients, high light, lead to this kind of bleaching at least anecdotally. I can slowly bring it back up per your suggestion. 

I also rinsed off all the socks and they were dry for at least two weeks. I wonder if anything in the "rinseless" type lingers. 

 

The brine shrimp is the spirulina enriched kind that one the back at least has the same nutritional facts as the other foods I'm feeding. But I'll cut back on it a bit and move towards more mysis, pellets, etc. 

I also wondered about the RO/DI. And actually replaced everything in January with the BRS sale. It's never registered more than 0 TDS. Moreover, I had ATI-ICP on RO/DI (which is free) and it showed no issues. 

The funny thing is that this is my third tank. I've always sort of had the idea there are many ways to skin a cat and sticking success is achievable with persistence. The biggest difference between this tank and previous tanks is that it is barebottom and it started with dry rock (that was in a dry tub for 2 years and from a previous tank). In the past I started with ocean live rock and just had more success and biodiversity. This tank seems very sterile and just less stable. 

Thanks again for your suggestions!

 

[Origami]

Over my years in the hobby, I've run my alk anywhere from 7.5 to 10 depending upon where I wanted to operate (for example, avoiding high alk levels when I ran a ULNS system), but mostly these days target 8 to 8.5. Even though NSW sits around 7 dkH (this varies in different bodies of water, by the way), I've never targeted running that low because it leaves me with very little margin to my "floor" value of 6.5 dKH. Don't feel compelled to emulate NSW. We often don't in this hobby. 

[Josh&Sarah]

I second @BtmDweller.  Get the ALk stable.  I run 8.5 via dose and if I'm off .5 I can tell.  I try to run Cal around 430... I definitely don't go above 450.  I was having similar issues a while back and I did a complete RO cleaning... I changed all my filters and cleaned my mixing station with RO/Vinegar and then rinsed with RO again.  I then increased my flow.  Don't put any additives in there.  It will just muck things up later.  I think your nitrate and phos are fine.  I aim for "detectable" not high...  Just get stable, use good water, check ALK daily, and bump your flow up a touch.  My .02.

[BtmDweller]

We think our systems are sterile. But when adding corals and whatnot there's a ton of biodiversity.  If you think on the microscopic level of what can actually be on frags, even after dipping.  I used dry rock in my system and tank water from an old system for cycling.  If you're worried about adding anything else you could get a couple cups of live sand stir it up and dump in the cloud of stuff keeping the sand out of the tank.  You have plenty of rock and plenty of surface area for beneficial bacteria.  Im anti-additives only cause I've seen them do more harm then good.

 

I've also seen alot of people with concerns their tanks are too clean.  Ive strived to keep my tank clean.  The only issue I had is dealing with cyano. A few scoops of chemiclean and no issues.  Some of the best tanks I've seen had small bioloads, and large water changes.  I've never been concerned my tank was too clean, and had fantastic coloration on acros. 

 

Why enrich a food as the enriched powder will add unwanted nutrients? I think the better option is mysis.  It's like dipping a snickers bar into protein powder vs eating a steak. I also feed raw shrimp. I rinse all food thoroughly and feed small portions at a time. 

 

Yeah correct alk varies in natural water. Sometimes I forget things ?But I've had good luck at 8.5 

 

 

[WheresTheReef]

I do believe from experience that there is such thing as "too clean." For years most of my acros were always very pale due to my algae scrubber, heavy skimming and feeding lightly with frozen foods that were rinsed with RODI. At some point my nutrients bottomed out (undetectable nitrates and 0.003066ppm phosphate, or 1ppb phosphorus with the Hanna checker). Dinos kicked in, most of the green in my acros completely faded and some acros completely bleached out or tissues became very thin.

 

To correct my tank's nutrient deficiency naturally, I slowly reduced my algae scrubber light from 12hrs down to 8hrs. Quit doing water changes for a couple months and started feeding heavier w/o rinsing foods. My nitrates are still undetectable and have kept phosphates to around 0.02ppm. Most affected acros (except for bleached out ones) are still bouncing back and slowly gaining colors they never had in my tank. Growth on the acros has also taken off. Acros added after the nutrient issue are all doing well, holding color and growing. With a slightly "dirtier" tank the dinos went away. Now I am dealing with cyano (mostly on the substrate).  I'm not brave enough to use chemiclean, which I have sitting on the shelf. I am trying to see if I can get the tank to balance out naturally. From my research I need to raise my nitrates to get rid of the cyano. I am reluctant to dose nitrates, so I setup my QT and plan to increase my fish load in the near future.

 

I believe a tank will work best when it has a balance in nutrient input and export. Adjust your feeding or export methods to find that balance.

 

About changes...

I ran my tank's Alk around 7.4-7.6dkh for years, but decided to raise it a little. I wanted a little more wiggle room for swings. Over a period of several weeks I brought the Alk up to 8.5dkh. Most corals were fine. Most of my euphyllia were ok too, but some did react negatively to the change. One that I have had for years closed up and partially bleached. A couple torches were releasing zooxanthellae until they settled down. This was happening in my 2 tanks that are tied together. I don't have a reason why other than the change was in my Alk level. I am letting the Alk level drop back down slowly into the range I kept it before. I did send off an ICP test and nothing showed up as being off or very different from by baseline test.

 

I don't have as many years experience as many reefers, but have learned a little bit about this hobby. The most important thing IMO is to find out what works for your tank and stick with it. Your corals will definitely let you know if they are unhappy. Make a change slowly (unless there is an emergency), wait a couple weeks and see how the tank reacts. Maybe I'm too conservative, but there is definitely some momentum in our tanks. The effect of a change might not show up right away. If you change multiple things at once then maybe you don't know what the actual cause of a positive/negative effect is. Every tank is different and trying to just keep certain levels that work for one tank may not work for others.

 

I am also in the KISS camp. I try not to dose anything I don't need to. BTW the nutrient issue I described above ironically happened after I was experimenting with amino acids to try and feed the corals because I felt they were starving due to low nutrients. Not 100% sure, but I suspect that it had a similar effect as carbon dosing. 

 

About filter socks...

Go with mesh socks instead of felt. They can be purchased from BRS. I hand wash the mesh socks very easily with just tap water and a spray nozzle. I will never use felt socks again.

 

About dry rock...

I can attest to the struggle with dry rock. It took my tank about a year before I started to have success with acros. I don't know if you watch BRSTV or ReefBum's youtube channels, but they have also said (and some guests) on multiple occasions how much harder it is to start a tank with dry rock vs. live rock. Many others will tell you it was just fine. Goes to show how different the small oceans we try to keep in our homes really can be.

 

 

It is stressful and depressing when you watch your tank having issues. Many of us can attest to that. Keep the course and you will figure this out. Once your tank bounces back feel free to reach out to me and I will gladly donate some corals for your tank.

[Josh&Sarah]

Yea... I think every tank is different. When my Po4 hits 0 I get frustrated corals. But for me to raise my Po4 I have to get my nitrates too high for my liking. So it’s a dance. I guess consistency is key. 

[Javed Aman]

One thing I notice is that whenever I blow off the rocks with a turkey baster a lot of detritus comes off and all of the corals close up for hours afterward. In the past, with my previous tanks, it was never this bad. I feel like there is some contaminant somewhere or something that's influencing the tank. But the ICP showed none of the common contaminants.

[Javed Aman]

Actually reading this thread gave me some insight into what I might be experiencing. Especially the mention of blowing the rocks off causing all of my corals to be ticked off. It still happens, even after my SPS have been all killed off. I think I have dinoflagellates. I want to avoid doing total blackouts until I'm certain with the correct ID and I know that the remaining corals can take it. My nutrients have been low for months and I guess I always assumed the dino to be algae.

My issues also seem related to the last few posts from: 

 . 
I think low nutrients from a sustained period of time might have triggered something and now I have dinos too. What are the next steps?

[Javed Aman]

 

It seems like BRS has back off on their stance on barebottom/dry rock. Welp...18 months ago is when I started this tank and that's exactly what I did. It seems like this tank might be a lost cause...

[YHSublime]

Sounds to me like your nutrients are bottoming out. I don’t think it’s a lost cause. Personally, I’d up my flow, and feed more frequently/often. Could also turn off your skimmer, slow down water changes, etc. if there’s nothing to lose, doing less sounds like an easy solution!

[Javed Aman]

Thanks for the reply. Yea it could be bottoming out, but I also think the dinos have taken over to the point where they need to die for healthy bacteria/algae to come back. Right now I have to run carbon 24/7. I tried turning off the carbon and the next morning LPS closed and the last two SPS (montipora had pretty big RTN)

[WheresTheReef]

Instead of blowing it off the rocks, you could put a filter sock in the sump and use a hose to siphon it into the sock. This helps remove them, but they will grow back pretty quickly.

I mentioned above how I raised my nutrients. It helped in my case to rid of the dino outbreak.

 

There are different types of dinos. Some are more toxic than others. Some dinos go into the water column at night and a UV sterilizer will help. Others live on the rocks/substrate and UV won’t help. I have had 2 battles with dinos. They tend to proliferate with low nitrates and phosphates. 
 

Might consider getting a microscope to try an ID for verification and a treatment plan if needed. This video is fairly educational and they provide links in the info for Jason Mac’s Dino group.

 

 

[Javed Aman]

Using a hobby-grade microscope the best diagnosis I could give is potentially having dinoflagellate ostreopsis. However, to be honest, at 300X mag the shape looked similar but the focus was impossible to get matched.

Symptoms of my tank are:

0.25 nitrate (red sea pro), 0.02 phosphate (hanna)

All of my die-off tended to occur overnight. So I was losing SPS day after day and usually overnight.

Blowing the rock ticked off the corals like no other. They all close up and slime.

Fish breadth heavier in the morning and hide much longer.

When my carbon reactor has been up for a few days the first few days things look less irritated, but today everything was angry again.

Small trochus snails dying. Even when I flip them back over (usually they can right themselves), they flip over on their own on their backs.

Two weeks ago I tried doing a mass siphon and waterchange-ended up killing all of my SPS. Since then I haven't done any waterchanges, turned let skimmer run while draining back into tank. It's getting progressively worse every morning. Nutrients not going up.

At this point I'm pretty desperate for a solution. I'd like to remove the fish and remaining coral and black out the tank for a few days. But I'm not sure if that's the best option. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

RO:DI analysis.pdf Tank analysis.pdf

Edited March 22, 2021 by Javed Aman

[Javed Aman]

More pictures of what I'm facing

[Salty Rambler]

If you think it is ostreopsis based on the microscope view, and can confirm that the dinos are disappearing into the water column at night, then a UV sterilizer and slowing down (or temporarily stopping) the water changes may be your best bet. 

[Javed Aman]

I did order a UV sterilizer from aquariumspecialty, however the lifegard 55W I ordered apparently has been backordered at the factory (this was not mentioned in the website). I'm looking for a suitable alternative.

All of my SPS have died so I started taking my drastic measures. I've raised my phosphate from 0.02 to 0.08 over the course of two days and increased nitrate from  < 0.25 to between 4ppm and 8ppm. I've also been dosing microbacter7 in the morning and hydrogen peroxide at night. I'm seeing some signs of successes. Snails have stopped dying (or intentionally flipping themselves over) and some zoas are peeking open.