YBeNormal November 29, 2007 Share November 29, 2007 That's cause you're helping him! By the time I'm ready, he'll be upgrading again! What? You're going to be ready next week? j/k... Mohsin has no plans to upgrade for at least another month! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 November 30, 2007 Author Share November 30, 2007 Unbelievable... I hooked up the new subpanel tonight and the second I flipped the switch, the wire between the main panel and the subpanel arced... right where it passes through the main box. I'm wondering if I tightened it too much? I can't imagine that I could damage the wire by tightening the clamp around it since it's a round clamp and the wire is 6 AWG... plus, it's rated for 55 Amps and the subpanel breaker is only a 50 Amp breaker. On the other end there's only one 20 Amp arc fault breaker so far, and that's not even turned on. Needless to say, it's time to stop trying to think I can do this if I have such horrendous luck with wiring. Time to hire a professional so if something happens, I can blame them. I can't believe this happened again... at least this time it simply popped and that was that. Would have been terrible for it to slowly arc and catch fire again, I imagine my tank days would be over in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Ward November 30, 2007 Share November 30, 2007 Dave, I understand better what happened with this description. I'm guessing you bought the wrong connector or hooked it up incorrectly. I think it's an easy fix. Send me some pics and I'll try to tell you what you did wrong. I should be able to come by Monday or Tuesday. email: brianward at vt dot edu ~Brian Unbelievable... I hooked up the new subpanel tonight and the second I flipped the switch, the wire between the main panel and the subpanel arced... right where it passes through the main box. I'm wondering if I tightened it too much? I can't imagine that I could damage the wire by tightening the clamp around it since it's a round clamp and the wire is 6 AWG... plus, it's rated for 55 Amps and the subpanel breaker is only a 50 Amp breaker. On the other end there's only one 20 Amp arc fault breaker so far, and that's not even turned on. Needless to say, it's time to stop trying to think I can do this if I have such horrendous luck with wiring. Time to hire a professional so if something happens, I can blame them. I can't believe this happened again... at least this time it simply popped and that was that. Would have been terrible for it to slowly arc and catch fire again, I imagine my tank days would be over in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 1, 2007 Author Share December 1, 2007 Hey Brian, it actually put a nice burned spot where wire feeds through the box. I'll snap a picture and send it to you/post it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaironman December 1, 2007 Share December 1, 2007 Hey Brian, it actually put a nice burned spot where wire feeds through the box. I'll snap a picture and send it to you/post it here. Isn't (Bob) Lanham is a certified technician if memory serves me right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman December 1, 2007 Share December 1, 2007 Isn't (Bob) Lanham is a certified technician if memory serves me right? Electronics technician - high voltages, low currents I do wire up light switches, and put in new breakers, etc. And I did wire up all the outlets and lights in the room I built in the basement. But I plan to hire someone to install a sub-panel for my big fish tank. Too much current. Current = Fires... Death... White spots in front of the eyes (from watching arcs - don't ask me how many times). In the stupid design department. I had a piece of equipment in a rack one time; about 6" off the floor. I needed to pop the top and make an adjustment inside. Switch on the front panel - up for on, down for off. So I turned it off, pulled it most of the way out of the rack, tilted it down to the floor, pulled the top off, and arc-welded a screwdriver to the circuitry inside. Why? Well, when I tilted it down onto the floor, the on/off switch switched back on. I think that's why they put guards around them these days... I don't like to mess with high currents; 55 AMPS? With the resistance of the body - you would drop all that current across yourself if you added yourself to the circuit - long before that breaker would pop. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme_tooth_decay December 1, 2007 Share December 1, 2007 (edited) I don't like to mess with high currents; 55 AMPS? With the resistance of the body - you would drop all that current across yourself if you added yourself to the circuit - long before that breaker would pop. I recall watching more than 1 MythBuster episodes where they talk about how it only takes some number of milliamps (across your heart) to kill you....I somehow think thats bogus, though. Edited December 1, 2007 by extreme_tooth_decay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 1, 2007 Author Share December 1, 2007 I don't like to mess with high currents; 55 AMPS? With the resistance of the body - you would drop all that current across yourself if you added yourself to the circuit - long before that breaker would pop. bob Oh, Bob, it's only 50 Amps, not 55! Combining that with what Tim said, that's a huge difference, so if you want to lay down across the circuit, it would probably only feel like sticking a 9V battery on your tongue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman December 1, 2007 Share December 1, 2007 I recall watching more than 1 MythBuster episodes where they talk about how it only takes some number of milliamps (across your heart) to kill you....I somehow think thats bogus, though. It's probably true... if it was right across your heart. But most of the time it seems, you get it from fingertips to boot soles. Pretty rare to grab both wires, one with each hand, and run it straight across. Happens though, if something is shorted to a rack, and you're holding the rack with one hand, while playing with hot wires with the other hand. And don't forget secondary injury. Co-worker climbed up on a step stool to reach onto the top of a hanging light fixture. Fixture was shorted - only a small shock, but when he flew off the stool, he came within an inch of cracking his skull on a large toolbox. Here I am saying to myself "which do I treat first - the electric shock, or the head injury?" bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 1, 2007 Author Share December 1, 2007 OK, here's some pictures of the wiring... Neutral and Ground wires in the main panel. Hot wires and the breaker in the main panel for the subpanel. Flash burns from arcing (?) on the wire running from the 50AMP breaker out of the box. You can see it on the hot red wire especially where I wiped it off a bit. Flash burns on the inside of the main panel where the 6AWG wire runs out of the panel. The burns are on the inside. It almost looks like it welded the clamp on. The subpanel wiring. The yellow wire is 12 AWG wire that goes from the 20 AMP arc fault breaker. The neutral is connected through the breaker and the coiled white wire goes to the grounding bar, along with the ground. The hot goes to the breaker. This leads out of the subpanel into a box where I have 3 individually wired 20AMP GFCI plugs. I plan on doing 3 of these boxes to power the entire fish room. Now, if I could just get this thing working correctly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak December 1, 2007 Share December 1, 2007 it looks so simple... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 1, 2007 Author Share December 1, 2007 it looks so simple... It sounded so simple, too, but then it didn't work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme_tooth_decay December 1, 2007 Share December 1, 2007 (edited) Any chance the connector where the 6 AWG wire leaves the main box has cut into the wire, causing a short there? There seems to be a lot of burns right at that location. tim Edited December 1, 2007 by extreme_tooth_decay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phisigs79 December 1, 2007 Share December 1, 2007 One of the wires coming into the box is more than likely cut and grounding out on the box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 2, 2007 Author Share December 2, 2007 That's what I was thinking, but I thought that the coating would be too thick to be cut. Should I remove the wiring and see what it looks like on the inside? The outer sheath is not cut at all and is in perfect shape. My guess is that it somehow got crossed inside the outer shield. Should I yank it and cut it? Would that cause it to burn like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 2, 2007 Author Share December 2, 2007 OK, yanked the wire and took a look. There was indeed a small cut in the wire... I popped it open and it was the hot wire that was completely frayed inside. It looks like it had split wide open, much different from the burned parts. The black wire itself was toast at the spot where it split, but I guess it's good that it grounded out to the box before it did any damage... uploading pictures to post and will go out and replace this wire tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 2, 2007 Author Share December 2, 2007 Here's the tiny cut in the outside of the wiring. Here's what it looked like inside when I cut it open. Little bits of melted copper all over the place. The wire itself was sliced open up and down about 1/2" or more, hard to see with all of the ash. After it arced it also melted a lot of it as well, but it never made it past the panel. I'm going to try and re-wire it again tonight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme_tooth_decay December 2, 2007 Share December 2, 2007 (edited) Hi Dave, That was where the connector was where it exited the main panel, right? Do you think you caused the problem by overtightening the clamp? Or did you use the wrong clamp? That stuff is scary. I was once working in a big industrial panel (300-500 amp I think?) and some idiot bumped me hard. My screwdriver shorted out inside the box. Sparks flew like crazy, and the shaft of the screwdriver melted like butter, I still have it. If it didn't have an insulated handle, I might have croaked right there. tim Edited December 2, 2007 by extreme_tooth_decay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 2, 2007 Author Share December 2, 2007 That's exactly where it was. I can't figure out how I could have overtightened the clamp, though, as it really doesn't screw in that far and it's a rounded holder. I can't really get a good shot of it. All I can think of is that perhaps pulling it through caused it to catch on something? Or maybe when I put it behind the insulation it scraped against something? Either way, I find it hard to believe that I could have opened that big a hole in the wire where it could have arced that badly. This will probably remain one of life's big mysteries, that and why I can't get this tank set up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak December 2, 2007 Share December 2, 2007 If it makes you feel any smarter I managed to fall off my ladder tonight while stringing (out door rated) christmas lights when I hit a hot wire (burned out bulb or missing insulation I don't know, I kicked the whole section to the curb) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zotzer December 2, 2007 Share December 2, 2007 Ya see, this is why it is good to be a chick. Never in a million years would I dork around with something like this....I'd be calling the pro. You poor men....that testosterone stuff is dangerous! Okay, I'll admit it....I have done some elecrical work...swapped out a regular light switch with a dimmer. Does that count? ROFL Be careful today, Dave!!!!!! Tracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 2, 2007 Author Share December 2, 2007 It's got nothing to do with being a guy and everything to do with having overspent my tank budget the day I bought my tank! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman December 2, 2007 Share December 2, 2007 Here's the tiny cut in the outside of the wiring. I'm going to try and re-wire it again tonight... Fried it good! It doesn't take much of a nick in the insulation to allow it to arc like that when it's right next to a grounded box. When you run it through there again, wrap a few layers of electrical tape around it, and tighten it just to keep it from moving around. I usually 'feel' through the outer insulation and try to lay the wires flat if I can, or at least make sure they don't have a twist right where it goes through. I'm guessing the clamp itself has some sharp spots on it or something - or maybe the black wire got 'pinched' somehow. Other possibility is that it got nicked at some earlier point during the installation and pulling the wire, and you were just lucky enough to put the nick right in the clamp. May Zeus smile on you, and withold his lightning bolts. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 December 2, 2007 Author Share December 2, 2007 I ran my finger all along the connector to see if there was anywhere that it could have gotten caught and this time I only tightened the connectors until they held (they are rounded anyway, so I'm not sure what could have happened). Lowe's was kind enough to replace it (I still think that it was probably nicked when I bought it as I don't see anytime that I could have damaged it - I ended up sticking my hand behind the insulation to feel around for sharp spots, none to be found) after I explained to them how I could have been electrocuted or burned my house down because the wire was faulty... so, anyway, I just rewired it, turned it on with an insulated handle screwdriver from as far away as I could reach... no arcing... then turned on the single 20 AMP Arcfault breaker from as far away as I could get... then tested the arcfault out... then tested the GFCI outlets (one does not work very well, it will probably get replaced)... and plugged in 4 96W PC bulbs, a 400W MH bulb, 2 Sequence Barracudas, a small return pump, a 150W heater, and an Oceans Motions 8 Way... and it all works! Now I just have two more outlet boxes to install and fish through the ceiling and I'm good to go! (Well, I do have 14 bags of sand to wash and a few hundred pounds of rock to move and some lights to install and a chiller to hook up and a calcium reactor to add and a return pump to install and sumps to connect...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandy7200 December 2, 2007 Share December 2, 2007 My guess is you stripped it here: The arc just shot to the panel clamp and opened the wires up there. Really you should not have wire in the panel like that for that reason, the outer sleeve must be removed inside the box per code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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