Velvet treatment

[Joshifer]

I got some work today thank God.

 

Going to Petco to get a 10G with the dollar a gallon sale.

Filter. Heater. Extra salt.

 

Since this is a hospital tank would it be ok to use tap water mixed with tank water and with prime because I'd be changing the water so much?

 

Also which medication do I buy? Should do lower salinity higher salinity. Higher temps mid temps. All comments and tips appreciated.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Joshifer

[Origami]

Tap water and prime will probably be fine.

 

I can't recommend anything as I've not had to deal with MV personally in over 10 years. Monkiboy may have some advice. He's learned a thing or two about treatment options for a lot of things over the years.   This article from 2004 should get a quick look. I find #12, using hydrogen peroxide intriguing. Note that it can be lethal if used incorrectly. For your information, 75 ppm is just a hair under 19 teaspoons (about 3 fluid ounces) of 3% hydrogen peroxide in a 10 gallon tank. The experimental protocol added hydrogen peroxide to levels between 75 and 150 ppm into a tank without flow for 30 minutes. So, you could add a half-cup of hydrogen peroxide and hit about 100 ppm. Flow was then restored to dissipate the peroxide. 300 ppm proved lethal while 75-150 seemed promising. I have no idea of how much additional work was done since this 2004 mention, but it's worth checking since 3% is readily available and dirt cheap. You may be able to pair it up with a freshwater dip beforehand. 

 

Copper can be harsh and requires that you get a copper test kit.

 

Chloroquine may be hard to get on a moment's notice.

 

Good luck. MV can be rough. Prepare to lose, but hope that you can do something and score a win. If you're lucky and if this is MV, then you'll have to keep the fish out of your display tank for a while to avoid reinfection. 

[Joshifer]

All they had was kordon copper aid. I filled the tank up running the filters without carbon heater power head SG matches the tank. I put the dosage for the copper aid.

 

Do I just put the fish in? Or wait?

[Joshifer]

Wait I used amquel water detoxifier. And this copper aid is chelated copper sulfate. I remember reading they shouldn't mix...

Edited October 13, 2016 by Joshifer

[WheresTheReef]

No don't mix copper and prime. It increases its toxicity. You have to do water changes to handle ammonia. Make sure water changes are with copper to maintain the correct levels.

[Joshifer]

No don't mix copper and prime. It increases its toxicity. You have to do water changes to handle ammonia. Make sure water changes are with copper to maintain the correct levels.

I used tap water to mix the salt...gotta do it all over again with distilled water now. Luckily I didn't transfer the fish over.

[Joshifer]

I emptied it. Starting over.

[Joshifer]

Okay. Filled with tap water. Added salt. It's all mixing. I added chlorine removed. This one does not affect ammonia or binds it just removes chlorines.

 

Water is cloudy salt is mixing. I did not add the copper yet.

 

I have bio spira. Would that help any? I did not add it. Fish are still in DT lights been out all day to reduce stress

Edited October 14, 2016 by Joshifer

[Joshifer]

Fish are in. I added some fiji branch rock for some kinda bio filter. It doesn't have any hitch hikers theirs nowhere for them to hide. Anyway.

 

Fish are already looking better. I just fed to test if they'll. Eat and they ate.

 

How long do I keep them in copper? Bottle doesn't say just says 1 month supply.

 

Their gonna be in this 10G for a while. Might as well buy them plastic plants or something to hide in.

 

What is it 72 days without fish in DT to kill off diseases ?

[Origami]

Bacteria won't survive the copper. Don't add it. You'll have to manage ammonia with water changes. Any water changes should be treated with the same level of copper otherwise you'll be diluting the level. Did you pick up a copper test kit to ensure copper levels remain in a therapeutic range?

 

Good luck with this. 

[Origami]

Forget the bio filter. It'll all die. I don't know if copper will be adsorbed on the rock or not, but it could result in your copper levels dropping to ineffective levels in the water. Furthermore, it's possible that the rock has been ruined for tank use, too, because it may leach copper in the future.

[Origami]

Remove the rock and set it aside. It's doing no good in the hospital tank. If you want to give the fish some places to hide, put a few PVC fittings of various sizes into the tank.

[Joshifer]

Remove the rock and set it aside. It's doing no good in the hospital tank. If you want to give the fish some places to hide, put a few PVC fittings of various sizes into the tank.

I removed the rock. Put it outside let it dry out or whatever I wasn't using it it was just in the back chamber. I got a plastic Texas holy rock from Walmart for the fire fish to go into. Petco didn't have any copper kits. Gonna hunt it tomorrow.

[Joshifer]

Theirs white dots on the glass floor of the tank. I can't see exactly what they are because I'm keeping the lights off even the lamp near the tank to reduce stress. Tomorrow durring daylight I can get a better look.

 

Fish are no longer lethargic. And swimming around normally. Vs in the display they were gasping and not moving. So seems better to the eye.

[treesprite]

Based on your other post, should I assume you have a firefish in copper?

[WheresTheReef]

Are you sure its MV? In my experience it kills very fast. I lost fish every couple days when I introduced a fish with it. Only 1 clown survived with treatment.

 

I lost a lot of fish due to not quarantining them. Since then, I keep a cycled QT and perform prophylactic treatment on all my fish (including tangs, anthias, clowns, and a flame angelfish). I currently have 4 more fish that are eating very well and about to start treatment in the QT.

 

I have no experience with the copper you are using. 

 

I've only used Seachem Cupramine and have had very good results from it. I can tell you from experience that it does not affect your biological filter. It also does not leach into the tank and/or equipment. However, my QT equipment will never be used for my DT. Once I remove the cupramine with carbon, it doesn't show up in testing. You should test with the Seachem copper test kit since they use a different type of copper. As you can see from my list above, even angelfish which are sensitive to copper are ok with the treatment.

 

I'm concerned that you added the fish without testing the copper level. It kills if the concentration is too high and is ineffective if too low. You need to maintain therapeutic levels for at least 30 days. After 30 days, you should remove the fish while the copper is still in the tank and move it into another tank (not the DT). Copper only keeps your fish from becoming reinfected. There may be some cysts in the HT. This is why you remove the fish before you remove the copper from the HT.

 

My QT has an ATO so it helps maintain salinity. Looks like you don't have one for the HT, so make sure you top off regularly to a marked reference line on the tank

 

Your DT will need to remain w/o fish for 72 days. Make sure you don't cross contaminate by sharing equipment, and or putting your hands between tanks. You should also keep your HT (and transfer tank) at least 10 feet away from your DT to avoid contamination via aerosolization.

 

This is going to be stressful as you will need to keep watch over salinity and ammonia. Keep lots of premixed saltwater around. Remember to add copper to any saltwater you will be using to perform water changes while treating the fish. Dropping the copper level even for a short period can render the treatment ineffective. 

[Joshifer]

I don't think it's velvet. Probably ich. I hope it's ich. Yes I have a fire fish In copper. He's doing fine. Doing better then what he was in the DT anyway. He was freaking out without a rock to hide in I got him a plastic rock he's better now. The clownfish is doing better also. The glass floor as I said is littered with white specs. That I can't examine until tomorrow I don't wanna put any lights on.

 

Tomorrow I need to hunt copper kits ill hit a few stores. If I'm unable to find any maybe I can borrow a kit.

 

All of th equipment being used is new I purchased it today. Nothing's going back and forth. Once I'm done using as a hospital tank I'm gonna set it up as a QT.

 

As for my DT I plan on doing a water change tomorrow. As usual. Run the lights as normal. I have coral and inverts I need to keep going. I just hope my coral don't freak out without fish.

 

For diving into this blindly I'm keeping calm about this im not falling apart over it as I thought I would. I'm talking about myself not the tanks.

 

But as I said I'm noticing a big difference in the fish for the better. To my eye anyway. they went from not moving and breathing heavy to swimming around and breathing normally in a few hours of transferring.

 

I'm preparing myself mentally if they don't make it. I want them to make it. But I need to prepare myself for the worst. And dust it off. And take care of my DT corals and inverts for 72 days before introducing anything new.

 

Personally I hope they make it. And they can live in this 10G for 72 days.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Joshifer

[treesprite]

I asked about the firefish because they are extra sensitive to copper.

[Joshifer]

I asked about the firefish because they are extra sensitive to copper.

I didn't know that. But he seems okay he's acting normal.

[Joshifer]

I'm just not sure how long do I keep the copper treatment going. The box doesn't say. Just says a month supply.

[Joshifer]

I think it's brooklynella. The fire fish has no marks on its body. I'm just saying examining myself and looking at Google images of brook. It looks like velvet. But what stuck out most is the black marks. That I mistook the other day for coral stings.

 

I could be wrong. I'm just trying to figure out what's going on here. I'm not bothering the fish I'm just googling and comparing images.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Joshifer

[zygote2k]

Dude- you seriously need to read an actual book on QT and disease treatment of fish. You've mentioned 3 different types of disease but you have no clue what if any you might have. You're buying and treating fish in copper but you have no idea what strength to use it at and for how long. IF anything, you'll end up killing more fish because of your lack of studying and actually reading up on fish diseases rather than searching google images about various diseases.

In my opinion, you should not have fish for some time until you're ready to put all the combined knowledge that you've 'learned' from various forums, and maybe a book or two- ( MR. SALTWATER TANK/ STEVEN PRO DISEASE BOOK) into an actual plan for success instead of this method of throwing a bunch of stuff into a tank without QT and hoping it lives.

 

I believe as club members, we have the right to educate people when they need help, but I believe we also have the right and moral obligation to step in and say that you're messing up. After being in this hobby for nearly 25 years, I've seen many people start off just like you, and then ultimately kill off a bunch of fish that were thriving before you bought them and now they are dead. 

 

So, Please stop anything you are doing, read up thoroughly on the subject, formulate an actual plan, consult the experts, and follow through with it.

[cpu933k]

Check out the stickies over in the Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis forum over at R2R. There's a lot of useful information there:

 

http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-and-diagnosis.771/

[WheresTheReef]

Lots of us have made the same mistake! I quarantine everything now. Learn from this and you will be successful.

[Origami]

Rob's right. 

 

You're bouncing around with your diagnosis. You need to be reasonably sure for an effective treatment and to understand risks. If it was Marine Velvet, it moves quickly and demands a quick response. Some of the symptoms that you described he RG having (erratic swimming, hiding (photophobic), lack of appetite) could have gone to MV. The fact that your clown's body seemed infected only two days later and that it had a "dusty" (not ich-like) look also pointed that way. By the time MV is visible on the body, it's typically done a lot of damage and it's just days before everything's gone. But then, a day later, the fish seemed normal again. 

 

If it was ich, the timeline available to you was likely longer and you could treat differently, putting less stress on the animal.

 

Now you're talking Brook. 

 

You're all over the map on this. You need to step back and take a breath. Calm down and think deliberately and thoughtfully. If this were MV, the pause may be lethal, but then again there's probably little chance now that you'd be able to save them.

 

You've moved the animals to the hospital tank with copper. You need to monitor the copper levels now to make sure that you stay in the therapeutic range. Too little and it's ineffective. Too much and you can kill the fish. Copper will kill off any bacteria so you have no biological filter. This means any organic waste is going to elevate ammonia levels. That waste can come from uneaten food, fish poop, fish slime, etc. So you'll be performing water changes to manage the ammonia. With every water change, you run the risk of diluting the copper, so you need to treat your change water to replace the copper that you're taking out. Evaporation will raise your salinity. Put a line on the hospital tank to set the level of your water so you can replace what evaporates with fresh every day. 

 

Follow the treatment instructions.

 

Have a plan for when you can return your fish to the display. (It won't be for a while if it was ich or MV.) And how you'll maintain them during this interim period. At some point, you'll be able to take them out of the copper-treatment environment but may have to house them in an interim (QT) environment where you can have some biological filtration (even a sponge filter) available. 

 

So, take a breath. Slow down. You're going 90 miles an hour on a bike with training wheels and it's scary.