Determining Cycle Completion?

[joro]

We've been working on setting up our new 90G reef tank and just started officially cycling last week.  We started daily testing using the API Kit for Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates on Saturday with our Apex controller monitoring the pH, Conductivity, Temp, and ORP.  To give you an idea of the timeline - 

 

• ​Wednesday 4/20 - We placed about 85 total pounds of fully-cured Live Rock we purchased from Quantum Reefs which is only a short drive from our house.  The rock was placed directly into the tank (which already had saltwater and pumps running along with some basic filtration including filter socks and some filtration pads).  We placed the bulk of the LR in the DT but did place a big piece or two - along with rubble - into the refugium section of the sump.
• Thursday 4/21 - We placed roughly 100 pounds of Live Sand (CaribSea Arag-Alive Special Grade Reef Sand) into the DT and let clear.
• Saturday 4/22 - We did our first round of testing with the API Kit and pretty much everything was reading at 0 which the exception of Ammonia which was somewhere in between 0 - 0.25 on the color scale.
• Sunday 4/23 - We dosed the tank with IO Bio-Spira and placed a large handful of Chaeto we purchased from Capital Aquarium into the fuge. The Chaeto was brimming with pods and worms (maybe bristle worms?) that seemed to migrate down to LR we already had in the fuge from 4/20.  We checked parameters prior to the Bio-Spira dosing and everything, including Ammonia, was reading 0.  
• Today - I just re-ran the API Kit again and everything is still at 0 and the pods/worms from the Chaeto are still moving around though not sure about their population. 

It's worth noting that pH ( between 8 - 8.1), Conductivity (~35), and Temp (between 77 and 78) have all remained pretty constant throughout although we have seen a little increase in ORP throughout today (rising from about 207 last night and peaking earlier at 228).  My assumption is that the tank hasn't cycled nowhere near complete but I'm being thrown off a bit by the readings which have, since Saturday) been reading at or very close to 0 across the board.  

 

Is it possible we missed the ammonia spike and/or it was very little given the cured LR / LS? Also, while we'll continue to test, is there a way to validate whether the tank has actually cycled and it's not just some unusual readings? 

Edited April 25, 2016 by joro

[joro]

Here are the readings i took about an hour ago in case it helps. 

[YHSublime]

So you added cycled rock, and cheato to your refigium, if the rock was indeed cured, I wouldn't expect a cycle in the tank.

 

I'm thrown off with the Bio-Spira. Looks like a snake oil to me, and in the future, I would avoid adding anything to your tank that you can't test for. Quick reading on it, says that it "detoxifies nitrates and ammonia" which are 2 out of 3 main players in your nitrogen cycle.

 

I'd venture to say the benificial stuff that you added probably started dying off, and the chemical prevented a cycle to a degree, hence the slight reading of ammonia levels. Just shooting from the hip here, could be completely off.

[joro]

So you added cycled rock, and cheato to your refigium, if the rock was indeed cured, I wouldn't expect a cycle in the tank.

 

I'm thrown off with the Bio-Spira. Looks like a snake oil to me, and in the future, I would avoid adding anything to your tank that you can't test for. Quick reading on it, says that it "detoxifies nitrates and ammonia" which are 2 out of 3 main players in your nitrogen cycle.

 

I'd venture to say the benificial stuff that you added probably started dying off, and the chemical prevented a cycle to a degree, hence the slight reading of ammonia levels. Just shooting from the hip here, could be completely off.

 

That makes sense; however, what's throwing me is really two things - 

 

1. The Bio-Spira wasn't added until last night, so between Wednesday (when we added the LR) and Saturday (when we first tested with the API Kit), wouldn't we see a larger spike in Ammonia if there was die-off?  It was reading on Saturday somewhere between the 0 - 0.25 on the color scale and prior to adding the Bio-Spira it was reading 0. 
2. On your latter hypothesis, if the Bio-Spira did prevent the cycle to a degree, how would we get it re-started or do we need to?

Thanks!

[YHSublime]

That makes sense; however, what's throwing me is really two things - 

 

1. The Bio-Spira wasn't added until last night, so between Wednesday (when we added the LR) and Saturday (when we first tested with the API Kit), wouldn't we see a larger spike in Ammonia if there was die-off?  It was reading on Saturday somewhere between the 0 - 0.25 on the color scale and prior to adding the Bio-Spira it was reading 0. 
2. On your latter hypothesis, if the Bio-Spira did prevent the cycle to a degree, how would we get it re-started or do we need to?

Thanks!

 

Sure, so if I were to bet, the ammonia spike was probably small because there wasn't a ton of waste, for example, the bristle worms and pods died off, but that was all you really had to get your cycle going. Something that can decompose in your tank is ideal to begin the ammonia process, usually a shrimp from your local deli (or you can just take a leak in your tank, it's free...) The ammonia converts to nitrites (see nitrITES) which them converts to nitrates (see niTRATES) which then can be effectively removed with water changes.

 

It's hard to say if your rock was cured or not, but here is what I would do. I would ghost feed the tank once a day. Continue testing, look for parts of the cycle, track your readings. If you get 0's on everything but nitrates, then I'd say you're good to go, and very slowly start stocking, begin with your clean up crew. If you get readings above 0 on ammonia or nitrites, then wait it out till you only have nitrates. Then, begin stocking very slowly. Allow your tank to catch up with the bioload you add.

[joro]

Sure, so if I were to bet, the ammonia spike was probably small because there wasn't a ton of waste, for example, the bristle worms and pods died off, but that was all you really had to get your cycle going. Something that can decompose in your tank is ideal to begin the ammonia process, usually a shrimp from your local deli (or you can just take a leak in your tank, it's free...) The ammonia converts to nitrites (see nitrITES) which them converts to nitrates (see niTRATES) which then can be effectively removed with water changes.

 

It's hard to say if your rock was cured or not, but here is what I would do. I would ghost feed the tank once a day. Continue testing, look for parts of the cycle, track your readings. If you get 0's on everything but nitrates, then I'd say you're good to go, and very slowly start stocking, begin with your clean up crew. If you get readings above 0 on ammonia or nitrites, then wait it out till you only have nitrates. Then, begin stocking very slowly. Allow your tank to catch up with the bioload you add.

 

That's very helpful and for the phantom feeding, is there a certain amount we should be putting in each day?

[YHSublime]

Well, let others chime in, I'm still learning! I would feed a pinch like you would normally

 

 

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[Anemone]

One way to test things out (since you don't have any livestock) is to add some ammonia and see what happens. You want the clear kind without any additives. I believe about 1ml added per 20 gallons gets you to around 1ppm (double check me though). Add enough to get a reading on your test kit, and if it disappears within a day AND you don't see any detectable nitrite, you are looking good.

 

(One caveat, I'd pull out the chaeto during the test, in case it eats the ammonia and makes it seem like everything is fine. When I set up my freshwater tank, I thought I was through cycling, but really the plants were consuming the ammonia. Found out the hard way due to nitrite issues that cropped up because biological filtration wasn't really established. Luckily we all pulled through after a few weeks of frequent water changes.)

[Origami]

Biospira is Instant Ocean's bacteria in a bottle. It won't do any harm, but if you have live rock to start with, it was probably unnecessary.

 

I suspect that your tank is "cycled" inasmuch as you have a living, functional biological filter established by your starting out with live rock.

[Origami]

Remember, the notion of "cycling" refers to the process of establishing aerobic and anaerobic bacterial populations that are capable of processing ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate, and nitrate to nitrogen. By starting out with fully-cured live rock, you basically introduce these bacteria with the rock from the outset. 

[joro]

Biospira is Instant Ocean's bacteria in a bottle. It won't do any harm, but if you have live rock to start with, it was probably unnecessary.

 

I suspect that your tank is "cycled" inasmuch as you have a living, functional biological filter established by your starting out with live rock.

 

 

Remember, the notion of "cycling" refers to the process of establishing aerobic and anaerobic bacterial populations that are capable of processing ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate, and nitrate to nitrogen. By starting out with fully-cured live rock, you basically introduce these bacteria with the rock from the outset. 

 

Thank you and just as a means to validate, would you suggest using one of the methods previously described - either phantom feeding or dosing ammonia for a period?

[Origami]

If you don't start adding livestock, yes. Basically your adding gas(food) to the tank to keep the engine (bacteria) running (fed) .

 

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[Jason Rhoads]

You have the basic biological filtration already established by adding the cured LR. I still recommend letting the tank run without fish for as long as you are able. This will allow the microfauna time to truly develop. A few pods and worms are great, but you will see much more start appearing if you let the tank mature without fish for as many months as possible.

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[Jon Lazar]

I think "cycled" doesn't mean much anymore for reef tanks.  A big cycle with lots of ammonia was common in FO tanks; reef tanks with rancid, transshipped rock; and any tank where you dump 20 large fish into a tank all at once.  With all the resources of the internet, most people know better now.

 

Your tank is "cycled".  Meaning that there's already enough ammonia-eating bacteria to gobble up the little bit of excess ammonia in your tank.  If you add fish at a responsible rate, you'll probably never notice an uptick in ammonia.

 

As others mention, the best advice is to go slow.  But not because your biological filter needs time to develop.  The most important reason, IMO, is you need time to iron out the engineering and mechanical quirks of your critters' life support system before your livestock depends on it.  Everything needs to run smoothly and reliably: electricity, plumbing, ATO, lighting schedule, sump return, in-tank circulation, additives, heating, evap cooling, etc. 

 

Good luck!

[AlanM]

I think "cycled" doesn't mean much anymore for reef tanks.  A big cycle with lots of ammonia was common in FO tanks; reef tanks with rancid, transshipped rock; and any tank where you dump 20 large fish into a tank all at once.  With all the resources of the internet, most people know better now.

 

Your tank is "cycled".  Meaning that there's already enough ammonia-eating bacteria to gobble up the little bit of excess ammonia in your tank.  If you add fish at a responsible rate, you'll probably never notice an uptick in ammonia.

 

As others mention, the best advice is to go slow.  But not because your biological filter needs time to develop.  The most important reason, IMO, is you need time to iron out the engineering and mechanical quirks of your critters' life support system before your livestock depends on it.  Everything needs to run smoothly and reliably: electricity, plumbing, ATO, lighting schedule, sump return, in-tank circulation, additives, heating, evap cooling, etc. 

 

Good luck!

 

Jon is very right.  Each tank build has it's quirks.  Don't get into a rush.  It took me months to figure out how to do a water change easily without making a mess (which I do more often if it's easy) and how to get carbon or other media into a media reactor without it going everywhere, etc.