Fish All Died - How long till I restart?

[Jonathan's Reef]

So, I had a pair of DaVinci Clowns and a pseudochromis, and then I added a Powder Brown Tang and a Copper Banded Butterfly to my tank. A couple days later, I say to my wife, "it's there!" A couple days later, all my fish are dead. They grew some slight fuzziness and got some dark blotches on them. Then they were dead. It was so quick that I didn't even have time to react.

 

I'm assuming that the tang/butterflyfish came with the disease, and I'm assuming it's prokaryotic. I'm looking for 2 bits of advice:

 

1. How long should I wait before restarting my fish, assuming my parameters are stabilized (of course)? I was thinking I'd give a good month to 5 weeks to run out their reproductive lifecycle. They probably have some dormant stages though, so I doubt I can ever be free of them. Alternatively, are there any recommendations to fight it while there are only corals and other inverts in the tank?

 

2. Is there a good dip or something people would recommend in lieu of having a QT tank? I'm in a small apartment, so my 50 cube is all the tank I can fit.

 

Thanks!

Edited April 24, 2016 by Jonathan's Reef

[WCorbin82]

Sorry for all your lost I don't have any advice as I'm sure everybody here can help you. I haven't been through that good luck with the next batch of fish you stock in tank

 

 

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[sethsolomon]

I think the biggest key is to choose fish that are appropriate for that size of a tank.  My money was what ever killed the fish came in on the powder brown.  This tang is a sickness magnet. And the stress of a small tank like a 50g would cause a quick death due to stress, what ever it was carrying, and probably not feeding enough for that fish.  I have found that the powder tangs you have to feed them 3-4 times a day to keep them less stressed until they can solve there dominance issues.

 

 

Nothing truly replaces QT'ing fish.  But experience, feeding more, and being very selective about the fish can get you close to the same results.  With a tank this size, I would stick to fish that stay under a max size of 4 inches. 

[L8 2 RISE]

It's important to determine what killed your fish.  The life cycle is very different for various diseases and parasites, additionally there are a couple that can live without fish hosts, which would require some form of treatment.

 

You should plan on 6-8 fallow though.  Moving forward, as Seth said, nothing comes close to replacing QT.  For fish that will go into a 50 gallon (which should not include a powder brown tang), just 10-15 gallons for a QT will suffice, you can fit this almost anywhere.  If you MUST avoid QT, then you need to source your fish from places that practice REAL QT procedures (not just treating with copper while the fish sits in the store, but actually QTing for 6 weeks or doing thorough prophylactic treatment for at least 4 weeks).  Reef eScape, ERC, and Quantum come to mind.  

[Jonathan's Reef]

I think the biggest key is to choose fish that are appropriate for that size of a tank.  My money was what ever killed the fish came in on the powder brown.  This tang is a sickness magnet. And the stress of a small tank like a 50g would cause a quick death due to stress, what ever it was carrying, and probably not feeding enough for that fish.  I have found that the powder tangs you have to feed them 3-4 times a day to keep them less stressed until they can solve there dominance issues.

 

 

Nothing truly replaces QT'ing fish.  But experience, feeding more, and being very selective about the fish can get you close to the same results.  With a tank this size, I would stick to fish that stay under a max size of 4 inches. 

Thanks for the input. I spent a while investigating fish, and I saw successful powder browns kept in 50 gallons. Plus, the LFS rep actually said I'd be fine with the powder brown and a small sailfin, so I thought I'd be able to keep the powder brown. Obviously, that wasn't true. Maybe if the tank were a bit more established, it could hold up to the demands of the powder brown. I definitely wasn't feeding 3-4 times a day either. 

 

With your fish size recommendations, it sounds like that means no tangs at all. I really like the body shape, swimming style, and the fact that they keep the rocks clean of even the slightest algal growth. Any ideas on substitutes for this reef community role?

[Jonathan's Reef]

It's important to determine what killed your fish.  The life cycle is very different for various diseases and parasites, additionally there are a couple that can live without fish hosts, which would require some form of treatment.

 

You should plan on 6-8 fallow though.  Moving forward, as Seth said, nothing comes close to replacing QT.  For fish that will go into a 50 gallon (which should not include a powder brown tang), just 10-15 gallons for a QT will suffice, you can fit this almost anywhere.  If you MUST avoid QT, then you need to source your fish from places that practice REAL QT procedures (not just treating with copper while the fish sits in the store, but actually QTing for 6 weeks or doing thorough prophylactic treatment for at least 4 weeks).  Reef eScape, ERC, and Quantum come to mind.  

I'll do some more investigating to see if I can figure out exactly. It seems like Ich, but it acted so quickly that seems unlikely. I'll do some research on small QT tanks to see what I can do to avoid this kind of problem in the future. I'll probably double up and look to one of these vendors too. Thanks for the input.

[Jonathan's Reef]

Thinking back, when my two clowns first came in, they got sick almost immediately, but they pulled through (likely because of ERS's excellent treatment processes). I think that the disease may have come in on the cleanup crew that I put in the tank and been living in the clowns. Then maybe the addition of the other fish stressed them all out and pushed everyone overboard. 

[dave w]

Just curious, how long did you have the clowns and pseudochromis in the tank before you got the tang and copper band?  

[sethsolomon]

With your fish size recommendations, it sounds like that means no tangs at all. I really like the body shape, swimming style, and the fact that they keep the rocks clean of even the slightest algal growth. Any ideas on substitutes for this reef community role?

 

The only tangs that may work in a 50g would be Zebrasomas or Ctenochaetus  as they are the most hearty of the tangs and stay on the smaller side. But only one. Stay away from Acanthurus, Paracanthurus, and Naso tangs as they get large.

 

As for algae eaters, I recommend blennies as they have a heavy algae diet and they like to pick at the rocks.  Some other alternatives are Mollies or scats (brackish but can be shifted to salt).  Or just get 150 dwarf cerith snails. they will do the same thing.

 

As for just other fish suggestions, 

Dwarf Angels  (With caution as these can nip corals)

Flasher Wrasses

Fairy Wrasses

Leopard wrasses  (Tough to get to eat but worth the effort to work on getting them to eat)

Possum Wrasses

Cromis/Damsels

Dartfish

Most dottybacks  (Not the ones shaped like the yellow dottyback they are very aggressive)

All gobies cept engineer gobies

Canthigaster genus puffers  (Will eat your cleaner crew and small shrimp)

Smaller species of anthias

basslets

and cardinals

Edited April 24, 2016 by sethsolomon

[Jonathan's Reef]

Just curious, how long did you have the clowns and pseudochromis in the tank before you got the tang and copper band?  

Clowns were in there for about a month and a half - 2 months. Pseudochromis came 2 weeks before the tang from the same place as the tang.

[Jonathan's Reef]

The only tangs that may work in a 50g would be Zebrasomas or Ctenochaetus  as they are the most hearty of the tangs and stay on the smaller side. But only one. Stay away from Acanthurus, Paracanthurus, and Naso tangs as they get large.

 

As for algae eaters, I recommend blennies as they have a heavy algae diet and they like to pick at the rocks.  Some other alternatives are Mollies or scats (brackish but can be shifted to salt).  Or just get 150 dwarf cerith snails. they will do the same thing.

Thanks for the suggestions. We were hoping for something a little less commonly found, but I guess there's good reason for Kole and Sailfin Tangs to be so popular. 

 

Have you (or anyone) had any experience with tiger watchman gobies? I have a thick sandbed, so I was thinking maybe he'd take advantage of that and keep it pristine in the meantime. He won't be nearly as good at algae cleanup as a blenny, but he does look mighty fine.

[Jonathan's Reef]

Just saw the spelled out list you updated. Thanks a lot. I'll give that a thorough look through.

[sethsolomon]

Thanks for the suggestions. We were hoping for something a little less commonly found, but I guess there's good reason for Kole and Sailfin Tangs to be so popular. 

 

Have you (or anyone) had any experience with tiger watchman gobies? I have a thick sandbed, so I was thinking maybe he'd take advantage of that and keep it pristine in the meantime. He won't be nearly as good at algae cleanup as a blenny, but he does look mighty fine.

Yah I had a tiger watchman about 6 years ago in a 34g tank I had.  He never touched algae but he was cool to pair up with a pistol shrip.

 

 

Here is a specific list of some uncommon fish that I think would be great in that 50g.

• Discordipinna griessingeri (Spikefin Goby)
• Paracentropyge multifasciata (Multi-bar Angel)
• Centropyge fisheri (Fisher's Angel)
• Luzonichthys waitei (Waitei Anthias)
• Gramma melacara (Black Cap Basslet)
• Ecsenius namiyei (Black Combtooth Blenny)
• Ostorhinchus cyanosoma (Yellowstriped Cardinalfish)
• Ptereleotris heteroptera (Blue Gudgeon Dartfish)
• Opistognathus randalli (Black Cap Jawfish)
• Ctenochaetus tominiensis (Tomini Tang)
• Cirrhilabrus scottorum (Scott's Fairy Wrasse)
• Cirrhilabrus laboutei (Labout's Fairy Wrasse)
• Wetmorella tanakai (Tanaka's Pygmy Wrasse)
• Halichoeres biocellatus (Red-Lined Wrasse)

[Jonathan's Reef]

 

Yah I had a tiger watchman about 6 years ago in a 34g tank I had.  He never touched algae but he was cool to pair up with a pistol shrip.

 

 

Here is a specific list of some uncommon fish that I think would be great in that 50g.

• Discordipinna griessingeri (Spikefin Goby)
• Paracentropyge multifasciata (Multi-bar Angel)
• Centropyge fisheri (Fisher's Angel)
• Luzonichthys waitei (Waitei Anthias)
• Gramma melacara (Black Cap Basslet)
• Ecsenius namiyei (Black Combtooth Blenny)
• Ostorhinchus cyanosoma (Yellowstriped Cardinalfish)
• Ptereleotris heteroptera (Blue Gudgeon Dartfish)
• Opistognathus randalli (Black Cap Jawfish)
• Ctenochaetus tominiensis (Tomini Tang)
• Cirrhilabrus scottorum (Scott's Fairy Wrasse)
• Cirrhilabrus laboutei (Labout's Fairy Wrasse)
• Wetmorella tanakai (Tanaka's Pygmy Wrasse)
• Halichoeres biocellatus (Red-Lined Wrasse)

 

Wow! This is a pretty fantastic list. Lots of great options in there. I like the idea of some of these true nano sized fish so that they really have space and won't ever make the tank look crowded. Thanks so much for the great suggestions. How did you come up with this so fast?

[sethsolomon]

Wow! This is a pretty fantastic list. Lots of great options in there. I like the idea of some of these true nano sized fish so that they really have space and won't ever make the tank look crowded. Thanks so much for the great suggestions. How did you come up with this so fast?

I am a large fan of uncommon fish as well.   I spend a lot of time hunting down odd fish for my tank.

[Origami]

Thanks for the input. I spent a while investigating fish, and I saw successful powder browns kept in 50 gallons. Plus, the LFS rep actually said I'd be fine with the powder brown and a small sailfin, so I thought I'd be able to keep the powder brown. Obviously, that wasn't true. Maybe if the tank were a bit more established, it could hold up to the demands of the powder brown. I definitely wasn't feeding 3-4 times a day either.

 

With your fish size recommendations, it sounds like that means no tangs at all. I really like the body shape, swimming style, and the fact that they keep the rocks clean of even the slightest algal growth. Any ideas on substitutes for this reef community role?

A word of advice, please do some due diligence of your own when researching fish. Do this for both your own knowledge and to cross-check the advice you're being given by others (including your LFS who has a vested interest in selling a fish that's in their tank). For example, a sailing tang can grow to a foot or more (not overnight, of course). So while they suggested to you that it was appropriate to keep a juvenile, were you alerted to the possibility that you might need to remove it as it outgrew your tank? Also, if this is the LFS that sold you the fishes, then you may need to consider their treatment protocols, too, since it sounds like there was a shortfall there.

 

This is an expensive enough hobby as it is.

 

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[rebekwl]

A word of advice, please do some due diligence of your own when researching fish. Do this for both your own knowledge and to cross-check the advice you're being given by others (including your LFS who has a vested interest in selling a fish that's in their tank). For example, a sailing tang can grow to a foot or more (not overnight, of course). So while they suggested to you that it was appropriate to keep a juvenile, were you alerted to the possibility that you might need to remove it as it outgrew your tank? Also, if this is the LFS that sold you the fishes, then you may need to consider their treatment protocols, too, since it sounds like there was a shortfall there.

 

This is an expensive enough hobby as it is.

 

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^^^ This

[Jonathan's Reef]

A word of advice, please do some due diligence of your own when researching fish. Do this for both your own knowledge and to cross-check the advice you're being given by others (including your LFS who has a vested interest in selling a fish that's in their tank). For example, a sailing tang can grow to a foot or more (not overnight, of course). So while they suggested to you that it was appropriate to keep a juvenile, were you alerted to the possibility that you might need to remove it as it outgrew your tank? Also, if this is the LFS that sold you the fishes, then you may need to consider their treatment protocols, too, since it sounds like there was a shortfall there.

 

This is an expensive enough hobby as it is.

 

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Sound advice indeed. I am definitely not going to run out and buy something because it was recommended to me again. I didn't even do that with the powder brown, but I guess that the fact that I really wanted one made me focus on the positives and ignore the negatives.

 

On my next round, I'll do a better job of researching and ensuring compatibility with the system and tank mates. As you said, it's expensive enough, but I just feel so darn bad that I killed all those fish!

 

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[WheresTheReef]

Sorry to hear about your fish. Definitely has happened to many of us. A QT is definitely recommended and can be as simple as a 20g long basic setup. Small investment in the long run and can break it down when finished stocking your tank. When considering your fish also think about the stocking order to help minimize aggression of certain species.

[WheresTheReef]

Hope this doesn't happen again, but worthwhile taking pictures to help with identifying the issue.

[Origami]

By the way, I've always really liked the summary information that Live Aquaria provides on their website and the general guidance that's also provided in their compatibility tables. I'd recommend that you at least make their site one of the  stops that you make when researching future tank mates.

[arking_mark]

I ended up with Marine Velvet and had to evacuate my fish to a QT tank for a 30 day copper treatment. The usual protocol for leaving the tank fishless is a suggested 9 weeks.

[emissary]

Sorry to hear about your loss. Ran into a similar issue in Feb and lost 14 of my 15 fish.

[Jonathan's Reef]

Hope this doesn't happen again, but worthwhile taking pictures to help with identifying the issue.

Yeah, I should have. If it happens again, I will be sure to document it as it's happening.

 

Sorry to hear about your fish. Definitely has happened to many of us. A QT is definitely recommended and can be as simple as a 20g long basic setup. Small investment in the long run and can break it down when finished stocking your tank. When considering your fish also think about the stocking order to help minimize aggression of certain species.

Thanks for the thoughts. I will take the order of additions into account as well. I've already started looking into QT tanks. Doesn't look too bad, so now just to find a place to put it out of the way in the other room where the wife will be ok with putting up with it for a few months.

[Jonathan's Reef]

By the way, I've always really liked the summary information that Live Aquaria provides on their website and the general guidance that's also provided in their compatibility tables. I'd recommend that you at least make their site one of the  stops that you make when researching future tank mates.

Thanks, I'll be sure to look there as well.