DuffyGeos August 6, 2014 Share August 6, 2014 Note: This is my advice broadly and not as an attorney. I would make a note of the condition of the stand, that it poses a hazard to people, the fish, and to the building, and that you recommend replacement. Have them sign the document. This is just a CYA method. It will hopefully also stress to the clients how bad the stand really is. Even though she is an attorney... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian's Aquarium Care August 6, 2014 Author Share August 6, 2014 (edited) Education is severely needed, part of the problem in why they bought a Moorish idol. Honestly, these people are clueless. He thought topping off was water changes so when I started the tank hadn't had a water change in at least 6 months, probably much longer. This was a hair algae tank. I was pulling out clumps so large I thought they were powerheads, only to find nothing but algae. Same thing on the rocks, I thought it was a ledge that stuck out from the rocks, probably five pounds of rock, it was really just hair algae. The hair algae is sucking up the nutrients so the chaeto isn't growing. Even when their tank leaks he won't walk across the room for me to show him what caused it so he doesn't need to call me in for an emergency visit for something that can be fixed in two minutes. They don't watch their fish eat. The Moorish idol was eating well for me for a few weeks in a row before last week, but he only eats it as it falls. So you have to feed little by little. This guy just dumps it all in at once so the other more aggressive fish eat it as it goes down and once it hits the bottom the idol isn't getting anything. Last time I am trying to tell them both about how I will not be surprised if in two weeks they call me telling me the tank collapsed. They both just keep saying 'we want more fish'. I say to worry about the stand, so she pulls out her iPad to liveaquaria and asks which fish she can get. Even though I have told her twice no butterflies she has one on the list. They just don't listen. Sorry this turned in to more of a rant, it is refreshing to talk to people who actually care and know how this situation should be going. I think another release of liability explicitly mentioning the stand collapsing is exactly what I will do. I will have them sign it this time and refuse to touch the tank from now on if they don't sign it. Edited August 6, 2014 by Brian's Aquarium Care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueTricia August 6, 2014 Share August 6, 2014 Even though she is an attorney... LOL. I have to put that disclaimer down because otherwise I could have ethics issues. Did my statement create an attorney client relationship? Where is Brian's business located, because I'm not barred in DC or Virginia (I am in Maryland)? Etc. The bar likes to slap us with ethics violations whenever they can. Brian, I definitely think you should have them sign something acknowledging the stand. The release of liability will help you. I would also include in there your recommendations for maintanence and feeding. Drafting them as recommendations or best practices just puts the owners on notice. If they turn the pump off for a week or two an everything dies, well it's not your fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 LOL. I have to put that disclaimer down because otherwise I could have ethics issues. Did my statement create an attorney client relationship? Where is Brian's business located, because I'm not barred in DC or Virginia (I am in Maryland)? Etc. The bar likes to slap us with ethics violations whenever they can. Brian, I definitely think you should have them sign something acknowledging the stand. The release of liability will help you. I would also include in there your recommendations for maintanence and feeding. Drafting them as recommendations or best practices just puts the owners on notice. If they turn the pump off for a week or two an everything dies, well it's not your fault. Don't forget that this is your advice as a lay person as you are not licensed to practice law in the Commonwealth of Virginia or the District of Columbia. By the way, Tricia, this is my layman's advice because I am not licensed to practice law in the Commonwealth of Virginia or Maryland, just in the District of Columbia. Oh, and if you want legal advice, that'll be $750 for my hourly rate (wow, I wish I was still making that!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 Brian, I would just present them with an invoice for a new stand and if they don't want to do it, I would have language incorporated in it that dissolves your relationship. You can attempt to waive liability all you want but without any familiarity for what type of jurisdiction the Commonwealth of Virginia is (assuming that's even where the tank is) you could be dealing with any number of doctrines for negligence and liability. Plus, a skilled attorney can navigate around that and all they have to do is say something like your work on the tank and the constant filling and draining of the water level created the circumstances that caused the collapse of the tank and not the condition of it. If I were that type of attorney and you were working on the tank and it collapsed, I would be able to spin it enough to find you at fault regardless of what the condition of the stand is. Again, though, this is my layman's advice as I am not licensed to practice law in the Commonwealth of Virginia (you'd be surprised at how strictly attorneys need to follow this rule!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian's Aquarium Care August 7, 2014 Author Share August 7, 2014 I have given them options, including the nice Marineland Monterey stands and canopies, but wood is 'too common'. Apparently they saw an aquarium with stone cabinetry somewhere (I couldn't see anything on the picture she tried to show me, I am guessing it was a custom built-in in a hotel or something). So I am trying to get some pricing on something like this, and to figure out exactly what they want in the first place. They don't like the pricing for everything (labor for switch out, new whole setup, etc.), yet they are asking for pricing for a custom stone finished setup which I told them would probably be at least 2-3x the cost of the Monterey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 Build a stand out of 2x4s and put a stone veneer on it. Sounds like they have money to throw away, let them spend it on a stand vs fish with a guaranteed expiration date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobB89 August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 Build a stand out of 2x4s and put a stone veneer on it. Sounds like they have money to throw away, let them spend it on a stand vs fish with a guaranteed expiration date.+1 also an idea is those new air stones that lowes and home depot sell. There nice and light and glue on. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 I had thought liability insurance was a given considering you're doing work in private homes. You should be very specific with the insurance company with what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuffyGeos August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 I have given them options, including the nice Marineland Monterey stands and canopies, but wood is 'too common'. Apparently they saw an aquarium with stone cabinetry somewhere (I couldn't see anything on the picture she tried to show me, I am guessing it was a custom built-in in a hotel or something). So I am trying to get some pricing on something like this, and to figure out exactly what they want in the first place. They don't like the pricing for everything (labor for switch out, new whole setup, etc.), yet they are asking for pricing for a custom stone finished setup which I told them would probably be at least 2-3x the cost of the Monterey. I will tell you that after being in business for more 25 years this statement scares the H-E-double hockey sticks out of me: "They don't like the pricing for everything (labor for switch out, new whole setup, etc.), yet they are asking for pricing for a custom stone finished setup which I told them would probably be at least 2-3x the cost of the Monterey". I already know the client type: Wants everything but is not willing to pay for it, or wants a discount in the end cause it was not "exactly what they expected (even though it was how the contract was written). Wants a Ferrari but only has Yugo money (funny little cheap car for all you youngins) Will never listen to what you say and thinks they know more then you, even if they have no clue. Will talk bad about "the last guy we fired and didn't pay" since he did not do what they wanted. All show and no dough. Run, Run fast, and Run Quickly!!!! It will save you money, a law suit, and a hugh headache. I can now pick these clients out either on the phone, or after the first meeting. You should be interviewing them as they are interviewing you. One of the best things I ever did was walk away form a $300,000 job because of all of the reasons above, I never even got to the point of giving them a proposal and the next guy I found out got shafted for about $60,000.00 in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surf&turf August 7, 2014 Share August 7, 2014 I'm curious as to why you told them no butterflies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian's Aquarium Care August 8, 2014 Author Share August 8, 2014 Thank you everyone, I really appreciate all the feedback. It has given me a lot to think about. At this point I think I am going to go one last time, have at least one of them sign the form explicitly stating they release me of all liability for any damage if the stand collapses, I have recommended they replace the stand, they will not replace it at this time', etc. They haven't paid for the last visit yet and specifically asked when I could come acclimate the fish they were ordering against my recommendation (they don't know how to acclimate), and see if the release of liability scares them in to no longer using me (it being their decision would make the whole process easier). I will also reiterate the issues with the tank, and some time early next week probably call to let them know I can no longer provide service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k August 8, 2014 Share August 8, 2014 Someone mentioned liability insurance. I assume that is a given since you are working in private homes and other places. Make sure you are very specific with your job when purchasing insurance. You use saltwater around electricity and this tends to drive the price up a bit more than general liability. I have heard of an insurance company almost denying a claim from a resulting fire involving saltwater which almost cost the company more than it could afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmerek2 August 8, 2014 Share August 8, 2014 Nice.. Back to the original question.,A week ago I saw one at king of corals eating good. It may have been LRS foods. Might be worth a PM to the KOC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM August 8, 2014 Share August 8, 2014 I thought moorish idols mostly ate sponges in the wild. I recall Dave Lin or someone mentioning a food specifically high in sponge content for moorish idols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djplus1 August 8, 2014 Share August 8, 2014 I thought moorish idols mostly ate sponges in the wild. I recall Dave Lin or someone mentioning a food specifically high in sponge content for moorish idols. It's probably the Hikari Mega Marine Angel Food. It's practically all sponge and no other fish other than angels seem to want to touch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM August 8, 2014 Share August 8, 2014 It's probably the Hikari Mega Marine Angel Food. It's practically all sponge and no other fish other than angels seem to want to touch it. probably that. Maybe that would entice the guy if they were patient enough to feed it slowly enough to get it to the idol, although if nothing else likes it, maybe the idol would get a chance at it. If I thought I could do well by one I'd want one. They sure are pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b August 9, 2014 Share August 9, 2014 I have been keeping Idols since the 70s but none past 5 years. I went to Tahiti to dive with them and learn some of their secrets. All I ever saw them eat in the sea was sponges. I collect sponges here in NY and freeze them. Idols love it. But I know you don't have sponges. I also fed idols live worms and sinking pellets that I first soaked in fish oil. Idols need to eat all day and they eat a lot so I buiolt a feeder that was a dish on the subtract, an automatic feeder would dispense oil soaked pellets all day long into the dish., That fish lived 5 years which stinks for almost anyfish but for an idol it is almost a record. Good luck but that fish won't live for long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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