jefftse January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 I have a pretty big QT system (4x40g). Since I buy fish at whole sale and I need to buy in a large quantity. I have been doing this for years... I had about 30 fish in QT and they were all fine and eating. Everything was going fine for 20 days. All the sudden, they had a disease out break... They are all lying one by one... I changed water daily, meds, nothing could stop it. I basically net dead fish out everyday for the past 7 days. Money is one thing, but this really makes me so depressed. watching them die and I can't anything about it. I don't think I can buy any new fish for a while. Also it brings up a good point that how important QT is. If this happens to my 600g and 200g. I will quit the hobby and never look back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surf&turf January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 Feel your pain, sorry to hear!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 Very sorry to hear about your problems. This sounds very much like Marine velvet. It hits very fast and kills fish before most people can react to it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 And thank God you had a quarantine! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squishie89 January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 Man, just thank your lucky stars and intelligence that you were QT-ing. I am very sorry for the losses =( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftse January 24, 2014 Author Share January 24, 2014 Regal angel, shoal tang, pink tail, 10 cardinal, chromed, lion fish, flame angel, naso, naso blonde, yellow line tang. List on and on. It does look like velvet. It happened so quicks. And they had some white film on them. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 Do you use copper in your QT? With that many fish at risk, you should. I QT all my fish in copper just because…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 Oh and I am really sorry for your losses. That must feel terrible. You are sooooo smart to QT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftse January 24, 2014 Author Share January 24, 2014 i use kick ich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkiboy January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 jeff, i'm really sorry for your losses. i'm glad you have them in isolation and have a quarantine set up. it sounds from your posts that there are a few areas that you can improve on to ensure that you much higher success with your treatment and qt efforts. are you interested in feedback or was this purely intended as a cathartic post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftse January 24, 2014 Author Share January 24, 2014 sure. What's the best copper treatment med out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR-Tanked150 January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 Lionfish, doesn't handle copper very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 Most that I read who do pre-treat with meds use some combination of cupramine (with a copper test kit), paraguard, prazi-pro, and/or methylene blue. Not necessarily all at once, although some seem to be able to be combined. Either paraguard or prazi wasn't supposed to be used with copper, but I forget which. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 (edited) I know someone who's main display got hit by velvet and they ended up just quitting the hobby. Again, so sorry about your losses. I'd hit it fast and hard with copper. Put Mandarins and lionfish in 5G buckets if you have to. Edited January 24, 2014 by sen5241b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 I know it sucks but be thankful that you have them in QT. It's too bad that all of the fish are suffering because it's probably the case that one or two was diseased at the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 Do you use copper in your QT? With that many fish at risk, you should. I QT all my fish in copper just because…. I agree, copper has a broad kill range and can act fast to break the cycle. i use kick ich. Kick-ich is not a good QT med. If ich has made it into your reef tank then it is an option but doesn't always work. The product label says it is safe for "corals, invertebrates and macro algae, as well as the facultative anaerobes and nitrifying bacteria essential to biologic filtration." That tells me it isn't going to have broad kill on the stuff you need to wipe out during QT. sure. What's the best copper treatment med out there? I normally do Prazi for two days, water change, and then run copper for two weeks. I use Cupramine because it is safer than other coppers but you have to make sure not to mix it with the Prazi or other chemicals that can break Cupramine's bond and make it very toxic. Formalin/malacite green is an alternative to copper. Some things to remember with copper, formalin, or malacite is that it suppresses the bio filter so you have to watch ammonia daily and perform water changes as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftse January 24, 2014 Author Share January 24, 2014 I agree, copper has a broad kill range and can act fast to break the cycle. Kick-ich is not a good QT med. If ich has made it into your reef tank then it is an option but doesn't always work. The product label says it is safe for "corals, invertebrates and macro algae, as well as the facultative anaerobes and nitrifying bacteria essential to biologic filtration." That tells me it isn't going to have broad kill on the stuff you need to wipe out during QT. I normally do Prazi for two days, water change, and then run copper for two weeks. I use Cupramine because it is safer than other coppers but you have to make sure not to mix it with the Prazi or other chemicals that can break Cupramine's bond and make it very toxic. Formalin/malacite green is an alternative to copper. Some things to remember with copper, formalin, or malacite is that it suppresses the bio filter so you have to watch ammonia daily and perform water changes as needed. very good advice. I guess time for a med order... I still have 3 survivors.. I will wait for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkiboy January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 i'm a fan of cupramine as well. use the seachem test kit to get levels right. use the seachem forum and their hotline for additional support specific to which treatments can be used together or other questions that arise. you do not have any fish in your system now, correct? if so, and they were treated solely through your existing protocol of kick-ich that would concern me. i would encourage you to allow the tank to go fallow and treat any fish in your tank. were they in treatment for those 20 days or was this purely observation/pre-treatment? the last of those 30 fish added was 20 days ago, correct? your "timeclock" starts over after each fish added as does the treatment regime. depending on the fish and it's background, i'll allow anywhere from 24 hours to two weeks to spend in intake to settle and de-stress. after that time, assuming no illnesses have popped up requiring immediate transfer to treatment, all fish in that group will begin treatment with either prazi, cupramine or cholorquine phosphate (doesn't suppress the appetite as much as cupramine and if you can get from vet pharma-grade with certification, is fantastic and kills the most popular diseases including MV). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkiboy January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 (edited) very good advice. I guess time for a med order... I still have 3 survivors.. I will wait for a while. if you have three survivors and it's MV and they are symptomatic or other fish were that perished you need to act now, sir. not in a while. if you can't find the necessary medicines, i'd be happy to lend you the meds and tests kits you need to allow those three a better chance at survival - just shoot me a PM if you don't have any luck with the local stores. Edited January 24, 2014 by monkiboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftse January 24, 2014 Author Share January 24, 2014 if you have three survivors and it's MV and they are symptomatic or other fish were that perished you need to act now, sir. not in a while. if you can't find the necessary medicines, i'd be happy to lend you the meds and tests kits you need to allow those three a better chance at survival - just shoot me a PM if you don't have any luck with the local stores. Thanks man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djplus1 January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 Copper is apparently also bad for Angels. I actually killed both a flame and and imperator with cupramine, not knowing that it was my quarantine that was killing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 QUESTION: are the treatments being recommended specific to MV? Is there a recommended protocol specifically for MV? Any success stories with MV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkiboy January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 Copper is apparently also bad for Angels. I actually killed both a flame and and imperator with cupramine, not knowing that it was my quarantine that was killing them. there isn't a 100% rule for any fish. there are certainly some fish that are popularized as being "more sensitive" to copper medications. cupramine is the most gentle copper treatment there is. it's always a good idea, even with hardy fish, to start at a very low dose and work your way up to the therapeutic range of cupramine which begins at around 0.25ppm. once acclimated to this range, you can over the course of a week or two, raise it to full dose per instructions. additionally, one has to take into consideration the requirements of the fish. qt/treatment does not have to be stressful. with certain species of angels there are basic living requirements. if you have a sterile qt with a couple fittings for an angel that necessitates algae grazing activity and tons of hiding spots, it won't do well. most failures i see with qt/treatment of fish is not because of the treatment itself but the unnecessarily stressful process the fish is being put through because of lack of knowledge on the fish's requirements. although, sometimes, we can try our hardest over and over with no success and it is then that i put that fish on my "do not buy" list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkiboy January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 (edited) QUESTION: are the treatments being recommended specific to MV? Is there a recommended protocol specifically for MV? Any success stories with MV? cupramine is good for marine velvet and marine ich. cp is good for marine velvet, marine ich, uronema, and brook. i've treated what i believe to be MV successfully (fish has been alive and thriving for over a year after treatment) with cupramine. i might have with cp but i dont know how that fish is at present. Edited January 24, 2014 by monkiboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind January 24, 2014 Share January 24, 2014 there isn't a 100% rule for any fish. there are certainly some fish that are popularized as being "more sensitive" to copper medications. cupramine is the most gentle copper treatment there is. it's always a good idea, even with hardy fish, to start at a very low dose and work your way up to the therapeutic range of cupramine which begins at around 0.25ppm. once acclimated to this range, you can over the course of a week or two, raise it to full dose per instructions. additionally, one has to take into consideration the requirements of the fish. qt/treatment does not have to be stressful. with certain species of angels there are basic living requirements. if you have a sterile qt with a couple fittings for an angel that necessitates algae grazing activity and tons of hiding spots, it won't do well. most failures i see with qt/treatment of fish is not because of the treatment itself but the unnecessarily stressful process the fish is being put through because of lack of knowledge on the fish's requirements. although, sometimes, we can try our hardest over and over with no success and it is then that i put that fish on my "do not buy" list. I agree, if done slow and at a lower dose of 0.35mg/l it is not as deadly for sensitive fish. I've used it on small angels, sharks, eels, and rays with no issues. cupramine is good for marine velvet and marine ich. cp is good for marine velvet, marine ich, uronema, and brook. i've treated what i believe to be MV successfully (fish has been alive and thriving for over a year after treatment) with cupramine. i might have with cp but i dont know how that fish is at present. Read post two in the link below and see that at low levels, much lower then the recommended dose, it kills a good bit of what we need it to kill. http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3801 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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