Waveline DC-5000 unreliable?

[Origami]

Last Thanksgiving, I had two Waveline DC-5000's retrofitted onto my recirculating skimmer. Both have died on me in the last month. That's $400 (@retail) in pumps dead in 10 months. The failure is not isolated. You can read reports about it around the web. Besides not running, if you open the volute and start the pump (just to see what's going on), you can see the rotor start for a fraction of a second and then shut down. Swapping controllers, the same thing happens. Something is not working, it seems, in the motor block. While at MACNA last month, one vendor (Salty Supply) said that he'd heard a report that a thermal overload sensor in the motor block was at fault. While that agrees with the symptoms that I've seen, it does not fix the pumps that I have or the ones around the world that are failing in similar fashion.

 

My pumps sat above and outside the water which might have exacerbated heat buildup. However, other units are failing around the world in submerged applications. At 50W, for a device this large, it really should be able to dissipate that kind of heat without problem, but that seems not to be the case.

 

I know a company that purchased a bunch of these a while back. Fully 1/3 have failed in their first year. Not good. It's a darn shame. Other than the fact that the pump doesn't turn, it's built like a tank. Ha.

 

It's said that the quality of the DC-6000's is improved and that they're making them at a different factory now. I hope that's the case. But, for now, I'm going to be moving to a different pump with what I hope is a better track record of reliability.

 

If you have a DC-5000 playing a critical role on your system (such as your return pump), keep a backup pump handy and a close eye on it's operation so it's failure doesn't cost you more than it's worth. In one case, for example, a guy was using it as his return pump and, when it failed, his tank temperature failed and he lost most everything (because his heaters were in the sump).

[steveoutlaw]

Man, that sucks Tom.  How old are the pump?.  You would think that a manufacturer wanting to keep their market share would honor the warranty on these since it is a known and recurring problem.  Any chance you can get anything out of them?  Even a 1/2 price replacement would be better than nothing.

 

Sorry to hear about this.

[sachabballi reef]

he has only owned the second one 3 or 4 days LOL....if THAT one isnt covered that is some company!!

[YHSublime]

Not to kick a dead horse, but isn't this what Sdenmark was all about? That's a bummer to hear, and hopefully what you said about the 6000 is right, I'd be pissed if I was $400 out in less than a year, especially with brand new out of box items.

[Origami]

he has only owned the second one 3 or 4 days LOL....if THAT one isnt covered that is some company!!

Not that bad, Jenn. My skimmer has two pumps on it. The first died after 9 months of service, the second after 10.

 

Sent from my phone

 

 

[Origami]

Not to kick a dead horse, but isn't this what Sdenmark was all about? That's a bummer to hear, and hopefully what you said about the 6000 is right, I'd be pissed if I was $400 out in less than a year, especially with brand new out of box items.

Not to worry. I'm not out that kind of money. I was an early adopter checking them out.

 

Sent from my phone

 

 

[Origami]

Not to kick a dead horse, but isn't this what Sdenmark was all about? That's a bummer to hear, and hopefully what you said about the 6000 is right, I'd be pissed if I was $400 out in less than a year, especially with brand new out of box items.

Not quite the same. You're talking about his post here: http://wamas.org/forums/topic/59619-rlss-dc-pump-recallclass-action-information/

 

SDenmark's site focused on dissatisfaction that could be traced to alleged misuse of the UL labeling on the product, not specifically on reliability. The UL label does not infer that a standard of operational reliability has been met.

 

To add to this, the guy that I talked to at MACNA (I think that he was from Salty Supply) told me that he thought that the problem I had seen might have been limited to pumps manufactured in February 2012. I haven't a clue as to the accuracy of that statement as the failed pumps that I have do not have manufacturing date imprinted on them. I will note that the newer DC5000 pumps have a label on the motor block that seems to indicate a top operating temperature of 35 C (95 degrees F). That's kind of low when you figure that it's dissipating 50W of power in a typical ambient environment of 75-80 degrees. It also implies that these pumps may operate more reliably in submerged applications than external applications (since water will dissipate heat from the motor housing more effectively than air). However, while both of my pumps were operating out of the water (as recirculation pumps on the body of the skimmer) some of the failures that I read about were for return pumps in submerged applications.

 

I my minds eye, I envision this failed twenty-five cent part deep inside the motor block, inaccessible because of all the potting compound that seals up the motor, at the heart of the headache.

[Origami]

RLSS, in an announcement on their site, advises:

"If you are having problems with your Waveline Aquarium Pump, or if your Waveline Aquarium Pump is not functioning properly, H2O Systems Inc. recommends that you stop using the product immediately, and contact H2O Systems Inc. for warranty repairs or replacement."

I've asked for additional information and will pass it on to the community.

 

This affects Waveline Aquarium Pump Models DC-3000, DC-5000, DC-10000 manufactured between December 2010 to December 2012 according to the notice.

[steveoutlaw]

Tom - With the demonstrated reliability of the Sicce PSK1000 pumps, is there a way that you could put 2 or 3 of those on as recirc?  I may have a line on a Deltec skimmer body and was thinking about going with the PSK1000s on it.

[Origami]

Tom - With the demonstrated reliability of the Sicce PSK1000 pumps, is there a way that you could put 2 or 3 of those on as recirc?  I may have a line on a Deltec skimmer body and was thinking about going with the PSK1000s on it.

Possibly. I've considered it. I may give the DC6000's a try. We'll see. Both are certainly power efficient and the PSK1000's have a good track record - much better than the PSK2500's that I had on a different skimmer a while back. I want to draw a lot of air and my skimmer body has places for up to 4 pumps on it if I really wanted to go nuts. I'm going to have to decide quickly, though. I have a spare Bubbleblaster 3000 that I can put on if I find myself dead in the water for too long.

 

There's really only a few reasons why I like about the potential of these DC pumps besides their efficiency and soft-start (both of which can be had in an regular AC pump): 1) I can dial it back to fit the needs of the system and get a wider adjustment range on the skimmer to adjust to certain situations - for example, if I change out a filter sock and get a lot of foaming, I don't have to shut it down, but can just dial it back and open up the outflow valve if required, and 2) because of their adjustable speed, they can be used on a wider variety of equipment (both in skimmer applications and as return pumps).

[Origami]

Oh, and regarding the older PSK-2500's, I had problems with two things of note: Startup issues and ceramic shaft wear. That was one of the things that drew me towards the Waveline pumps. The shaft on the pump looks to be nearly 1/4" thick and very securely mounted. Too bad the electronics inside may be their weak spot.

[wangspeed]

I'm tempted to try a Jebao 6000 return.  I currently have a RO DC3500, which I'm sure must be in the same boat as your Wavelines, since they all came from the same place at some point.  I regret undersizing it now.  I didn't take into account that I was going to tee off the return to feed the fuge.

 

Don't see why I'd pay more for the Waveline or RO name if it's going to be any less reliable than the Jebao.

[Origami]

Update: I'm told that both pumps will be replaced under warranty with DC-6000's. I'll need new plumbing built since the volutes are different and the pumps are a little different in size, but it's a good thing. I'm happy with the responsibility that the manufacturer is showing and the effort to rebuild trust with the consumer community. The DC6000 is a different design and product than the DC5000 but time will tell about its reliability.

 

I exchanged some emails in recent days with one of the RLSS sales engineers in China, hoping to glean some information that I could share with the community. He provided some technical detail about the failure. In simple terms, the pump controller relies on a feedback signal from the motor block to manage the pump speed. That feedback is measured by software in the controller and must fall within certain tolerances or the controller shuts the pump down. The tolerances on the controller were set too tight for the components used in the motor block and, when the feedback signal falls out of spec, the controller stops the pump. He called it a "software problem" but, depending upon the component that's drifting in the motor block, it could just as easily be termed a hardware failure (or degradation) in my estimation. Unfortunately, even if it could be entirely deemed a software bug, the DC5000 controller does not have the ability to be reprogrammed outside the factory environment. (But the DC6000 does!)

 

So, keep an eye on your DC5000's - especially if they're running out of the water. (Submerged applications seem to fare better.) Know that RLSS values you as a consumer and has confessed that there's a design defect that has affected a larger than expected number of consumers. And, from my experience, they will work with you to make it right.

 

 

I'm tempted to try a Jebao 6000 return.  I currently have a RO DC3500, which I'm sure must be in the same boat as your Wavelines, since they all came from the same place at some point.  I regret undersizing it now.  I didn't take into account that I was going to tee off the return to feed the fuge.

 

Don't see why I'd pay more for the Waveline or RO name if it's going to be any less reliable than the Jebao.

I don't know much about the Jebao 6000, however just glancing at the picture on the Aliexpress.com website, the controller on the pump reminds me a lot of the Gen 1 Wavelines. I don't see mention of or see evidence of an external control / reprogramming interface or the dial that allows you to dial in a range of pump speeds (both signs of the 2nd generation design). If, in fact, the problem with the DC5000 could have been overcome in the software if it had the ability to be updated by the consumer, then it's unclear if the controller on the Jebao is any better in this regard.

[mr.x-ray]

I'm currently running a DC-6000 wide open with 9' of head to the frag tank. It's been going for 2 months now. So far so good. I didn't want to put it on the DT return just because of past history with the other pumps. Only time will tell I guess. However I am really likeing the controllability, quiteness and lack of heat out put so far. I've found the feed mode for a frag tank is very useful.

[Origami]

I'm currently running a DC-6000 wide open with 9' of head to the frag tank. It's been going for 2 months now. So far so good. I didn't want to put it on the DT return just because of past history with the other pumps. Only time will tell I guess. However I am really likeing the controllability, quiteness and lack of heat out put so far. I've found the feed mode for a frag tank is very useful.

When you say "DC-6000" do you mean the RLSS Waveline DC-6000 or one of the knock-off's that's also using the name DC-6000? It's getting confusing with the companies all naming their products similarly.

[wangspeed]

When you say "DC-6000" do you mean the RLSS Waveline DC-6000 or one of the knock-off's that's also using the name DC-6000? It's getting confusing with the companies all naming their products similarly.

 

Almost all of them are based off the same hardware, from the same place.  I'm not sure about the Jebao though.

[Origami]

Almost all of them are based off the same hardware, from the same place.  I'm not sure about the Jebao though.

That's what they say but I've not held two of any of these clones in my hand at the same time and said that they're exactly the same. Some have friction fit volutes, for example, while others have theirs screwed in. The Jebao DC-6000 seems to have a different controller than the Waveline DC-6000. (Given the integral importance of these controllers in the pump operation, this is significant.) So when you say that you're using a DC-6000 as a return pump, which manufacturer's DC-6000 are you using? I'm assuming it's a Waveline but just want to be sure. You're also using it as a submerged pump, I assume? (The DC-6000 volute was supposedly redesigned so that it could be used in external applications as I recall.) Both important to me as I convert this skimmer over to two externally mounted Waveline DC6000's.

[Frotch11]

I don't mean to revive an old post but . . . here it goes anyway ;-)

 

Tom, did you end up sticking with the DC pumps? How are they running? I have been recently considering a DC return pump for my tank but have come across this and similar stories of failed blocks and failed controllers. Just curious to If you had any "long term" info on them.

 

THANKS!!

[Origami]

I don't mean to revive an old post but . . . here it goes anyway ;-)

 

Tom, did you end up sticking with the DC pumps? How are they running? I have been recently considering a DC return pump for my tank but have come across this and similar stories of failed blocks and failed controllers. Just curious to If you had any "long term" info on them.

 

THANKS!!

Yes. I'm still using the Waveline DC-6000's that replaced the failed 5000's. So far, so good for this pair. 

[wangspeed]

The only thing I have run into is the pumps being set to the wrong setting from the factory, which makes it think it is running dry, and will shut down. The controller will flash when this occurs. There is a simple procedure to fix the setting though.