SAND CLEARNERS 101?

[HowardofNOVA]

Ok, bad english, but this is the question. Alot of my sand seems to be filled with sponges of different types. Generally Yellow to whitish in color and instead of being fine, it clumps.

I've used Nassarius before, but they become snacks for the Bluelegs too fast.

RECOMMENDATIONS?

Cucumbers:

Either Tiger Tail Cucumber (Holothuria hilla) - Size: 2

[Jarosh]

I can definatley say the Red Fromia Star won't do much for the sand bed, but they are otherwise a grat addition. Mine just likes to hang out on the rock.

 

Otherwise I'd be interested in what works for you. Personally I've gone bare bottom :68: (hold back those dirty thoughts) and have no plans on going back.

[Guest alex wlazlak]

ive got the same problem howard. well i have algea all over my sand. some spots look real white, but then alot of it is covered with like turf algea (maybe its green coraline, but its all over/around the sand..) id like to know what you decide on. anyone has any input?

[davelin315]

The problem with a sand sifting star is that they will decimate the population of life in your sand that keeps it churned up. You might not think that the little pods and worms do a whole lot in your tank as far as moving the substrate around, but they do in fact keep it clear. The sand sifter will actually eat all of these and leave you with "dead" sand as far as life in it. This also might be the cause of your sand "clumping" together. Chemical reactions in our tanks tend to cause the sand to eventually clump together and become fused into larger particles. Basically, if left alone and not turned over every once in awhile in our systems by small organisms, the sand will fuse into one large piece of basically sandstone. If you have ample life in it, though, it tends not to happen.

 

I agree about the fromia star. It won't sift your sand as it's not geared towards living on the bottom. It will only cruise around on your glass or rock. Also, they are very sensitive and often will disintegrate after a few months from problems that could have happened in shipping or even at the store or wholesaler because of improper acclimation.

 

I like the nassarius snails and if you keep enough different shells in your tank, you won't have as much predation from your crabs. I think it's inevitable that you'll lose some, but it won't be as bad. You could also get larger ones that won't be effected by the crabs. Or, you could add cerith snails, they will also cruise through the sand and stir things up without eating anything.

 

I also like cucumbers. They do an outstanding job. Double check on what the pink eats, though. Only some of them will eat the detritus from your sand bed. I have black cucumbers, plain and simple, $5.99 at Centreville Aquarium. They eat the sand by picking it up and digesting whatever is edible on it rather than what the sand sifters do (hunt in the sand itself and not clean off the sand). I'd try the cucumber first and then go from there. I have yet to see my crabs (blue leg, scarlet, and left handed/zebra) touch the cucumber in my tank at home.

 

Alex, as far as having algae growing on your sand bed, that's because you have too high nitrates. You need to get those down. I just tested my school tank today with some students and our nitrates are through the roof, so a water change and vacuuming of the substrate is definitely in the works. You would do well to do the same thing on yours.

[emissary]

I echo warnings on sand sifting stars, though I *have* owned them in the past. Have you considered a jawfish pistol shrimp combo? My pistol (thanks Luke) REALLY churns up the sand. Mind you he'll also move all the furniture around. I've lost frags to his lair. I think he's just trying to spruce the place up a bit. Right now he's got this Xenia frag curtain by the "front door" that's quite attractive.

 

Tiger tails have done well for me. I bought one that became two that became three.

[Guest alex wlazlak]

i dont really wanna vacume my sand because i do have things in it that are visibale from the glass, which i dont want to be gone. i think i have "live sand" now... eventually i will do some water changes. you guys might FLIP if i say i dont change water, but its true! a while back i did could never do them right and id get high spikes of ammonia and nitrites, so i just gave up on them. everything in my tank is doing just fine so if its all doing good, then why screw it up again by doing water changes? id only ever change 3-5 gallons out of my 55 and corals and fish would die. my guess is i never let the newly mixed water sit for a day or two. but could that do it for the ammonia and nitrites to get high?

[HowardofNOVA]

I've noticed that MOST established tanks owners NEVER vac the sand beds. Heck, some never seen them :D with all the growth covering them up.

IMO, sand vacuum works for FW tanks, but not SW for that is where your pods, etc are living and second, that's what you need "CLEANERS" for.

I use to vacuum in the beginning but no more. Now when I replace some sand for new in the near future, I'll plan on vacuuming out to keep the dust down, but that will be it.

 

Alex,

With a 55g tank, you want to replace about 10g of water a month, drain out 3-5g at one time each week or TWO and replace with a new batch of mixed SW after it has sat for a couple of days to blend after mixing into the bucket.

This way, your disturbing nothing.

About 1x a month would be a good time to drain from the sump if possible to remove any excess detris or vacuum off the rocks. OR take a small PH and blow off your LR before you start to drain kicking up old fish food/detris to into drain bucket/sump and skimmer. When you do this though, your skimmer will be kicking into over drive, so keep an eye out for your skim overflow

 

Does anyone have a Pink Cucumber (Holothuria edulis)? Does a good job?

Howard

[flowerseller]

Alex,

 

Exchange water, you're missing out on CA, trace elements and fun.

Like Howard suggets, several small exchanges a month is better than 1 large.

Like many, I believe in lots of water movement. You should too.

Old indian saying... "the solution is dilution"

 

I don't "vaccuum" my substrate and it's 15 years old. I do add several #s a year and gently twist some portions of it. Mostly checking to see if it's caking since I use a CA reactor and kalk reactor.

[davelin315]

I don't vacuum either, but if he's got algae growing on it, it's time to do something. That means there are high amounts of organic matter in it. The pods will grow back. There's no way you'd get all of them by vacuuming. And, only vacuum the top inch or less. As far as the water changes are concerned, Alex, you said you only recently hooked up your RO/DI so you should get your water tested for conductivity (TDS meter) and if it's good out of your RO/DI unit, then do some water changes. My guess is that before, you were changing old water with new water that had the same amount of junk in it as the old.

[xeon]

Howard,

My personal favs for sand bed maint. are Fighting Conchs, Nass. snails, Atlantic cucumbers and Cerith snails. My problem with Tiger tails is their behavior to attach and linger there... my ugly Atlantic cucumber moves all over making pretty white sand pellets. With these and the other critters that you should have in a sand bed... things should be peachy. I also third or fourth the opinion that sand sifting star fish are a bad idea for a "functional" sand bed.

[steveoutlaw]

I'm with xeon on the Conchs. I got a queen conch from Paul Jarosh and she just loves churning up the sand. Between the conch and the nassarius snails my sandbed stays looking pretty sharp.

 

Howard - get rid of the bluelegs. Pick them out one at a time and put them in your sump/fuge. I only have a few of them in my 120 and I'm working on getting them out. I have noticed a lot of little baby nassarius snails in my tank since I got rid of most of the blue legs.

[HowardofNOVA]

Cool, cool, cool and cool! B)

 

The only problem I have with the conch is "Moving" by frag/corals around also.

 

So, I guess I leaning to do the following for now:

 

Remove top 1/2"-1" layer of caked gravel and replace with pretty white sand, so if anyone has about 3-5# available, would be interested in picking it up?

 

next I'll pickup

(30) Nassarius Snails @ .35 each from AquaticsIsland Monday

 

and maybe down the road either

(1) Pink Cucumber (Holothuria edulis) - Size: 4

[xeon]

Howard,

Unless you have frags laying on your sand bed a fighting conch will never touch your frags. They stay on the sand ALL the time. A queen on the other hand may venture to glass and rock work. Behaviourly they go around vacuuming with their trunk and will bury themselves from time to time for a variable period of time. I had one disappear for a month one time.

 

I also have at least 10lbs. of Southdown that is a few years old... but never used and still dry. I opened the bag for a small tank and to add to my refuge. I could get it to you if/when the bulb thing happens if you can't get anything closer.

[HowardofNOVA]

Thanks for the offer Dave,

So your saying Fighting Conch is good, Queen no due to like to travel off the sandbed? WELL THEN, We might be looking at Fighter! :D

Howard

[steveoutlaw]

Well, I must have a fighting conch because it never leaves the sand. I lost it for a week once and then all of a sudden it just rose out of the sand. It's also kinda cool to just watch it's trunk come out and start vacuuming.

 

BTW - You will be surprised at how fast it can move......H-E-double hocky sticks on wheels!

[Lee Stearns]

The fighting conch is a good cleaner- The queen is a bit more adaptable IMHO- as when you run out of sand to clean they will then move up in the rock work or glass- but in my experiece they have to be hungry to move from the sand bed- which means they have eaten all they can reach with that long snout-- pretty good cleaning- I have even resorted to aclimating my queen to the 54 G corner tank for a month or so of cleaning before bringing back to the main tank.

I will definitely get a plain atlantic black cucumber when the chance presents itself after Xeon's praise. I had always worried about putting anything in the sand that would filter out the good worms/ect.

I have a theory that some new sand must be brought in every year or so. I do not mind giving out samples of live sand to anyone interested in getting some- Then eventually add that new sand to replenish - It is like replinishing the buffer capacity or adding a new sponge so to speak. I generally do this in the fuge area though- so much easier.

[martin]

My problem is the Trigger fish, I can't mix too many cleaners with it or its snack time. I have one monster turbo snail (too big for trigger to snack on) for a 75g and lots of pest algae. Any suggestions or too large for your system cleaners for sale?

 

Trigger would like to meet your unwanted hermit crabs:)

[steveoutlaw]

I have read that when cucumbers get stressed they will release toxins into the water that can kill fish and corals. Be sure you keep your water levels about the same.

[Folta]

I just added a bunch of snails to my cleanup crew last week.. 30 nassarius, 15 astrea, and 10 ceriths.

 

I think the nassarius were bugging my leopard wrasse - last night I found that the wrasse has established a new home!

 

I'm curious about the cucumbers, but I never really liked the looks of them.

 

Alex, if I recall, weren't the water changes you were doing that messed things up, back before you had bought your ro/di unit? You will have to do water changes, if you have any hopes of maintaining a long time successful tank. But you can always test your saltwater before putting it in! Mix the saltwater in a food grade container, put in a pump to keep it circulating, heat if you like, and wait a few days. I'm assuming you have test kits, correct? Check to make sure the new water is phosphate, and nitrate free (heck, test the freshwater coming out of your ro/di for that as well before wasting sand ) Do you have a tds meter? If you check your water, and aren't satisfied with the results, buy some distilled water.. its not very expensive, the pain is just having to bring it home. How big is your tank again?

[Caribbean Jake]

a little about Sand Shifting Starfish

 

You want to see them in action? Wake up early and turn the lights on. My sand shifting starfish used to crawl up the glass, put her tentacles around any snail (cerith, nerit, astrea, turbo, margarita) and shoke them to death, then suck the juice out of them and move on to the next. I noticed this on several ocasions, ,so the sand shifting star is gone.....

 

On regards to the Blue Leg Crabs, well, you need them to clean the rocks, while the Nassarious clean the sand, and the nerite and cerith clean the glass... is a big happy family as long as there is a balance. Once food is low on one end, you will see these inverts move around over other inverts territories and there is where blues eat astreas, and star go after cerith...

 

Just MHO - experience

Jacob

[steveoutlaw]

Jake-

I agree that we definately need hermits to clean the rocks. In my little bit of experience I have found that the bluelegs seem to be the most vicious of the hermits. My scarlets, mexican redleg and zebra hermits will occasionally battle for shells but the bluelegs seem to thrive on it. As my 5 year old says.......they're just big fat meanies!

[Caribbean Jake]

Steve

Perhaps, that is the case when the food at the rock level is low and your Blue Leg friends need to move south (towards the sand) in search of food. Yes they are vicious, and they will kill for no reason (no reason to us), but they actually kill for a reason. One is the shell, the other is food and any other invert similar in shape and strength is a competitor... just think like a crab for a minute.. wouldn't you do the same if you are hungry?

 

Solution, minimize the amount of Blue Legs you have in your tank, and maximize the snails, you will see a balance. If you have too many Blue Legs, you have an UNBALANCE eco system.. sorry but that is reality.

[steveoutlaw]

I knew that hermits killed for shells......and food. It just seems that the bluelegs killed more often........and a lot of times it's hermits with smaller shells. I think I'll just stick to the scarlet and redleg.

[xeon]

Lee et al,

My general understanding of cucumbers is this... there are basically two varieties; filter feeders and detrivores. I think "detrivore" is the right word and it is the one we hobbyist want for sand bed maintenance. They basically ingenst the top portion of sand removing algae and bacteria. I recall R. Shimek stating this stripping of the bacteria was a good thing. It sparks repopulation of bacteria in the cleaned off sand particles... or something along those lines.

 

I am pretty sure they do not negatively affect sand bed fauna like the sand sifting star. Both the Atlantic and Tiger tail can expel their insides if they so choose. They are not toxic like the Sea Apples, which can expel and release some nasties. I've never had a cucumber expel its guts, but it could happen. Like anything else dying in our tank, it could be problematic.

[Guest alex wlazlak]

i do have a tds meter. my well water is .070ish, ro/di water is .002, my waste water from the ro/di unit is .077ish, and i measured generic spring water before and it was like .260ish. next week i will try to do a water change. ill just end up gettin some more nassarious snails then. is there a place to get them real cheap? my LFS has them for $2 i think, and that is alot to me.