Looking for a "chiller expert"

[Ryan S]

It looks like I'll be adding a chiller to my system in the near future. This will be the first chiller I have used, so I have a few questions I'd like to run by someone with chiller experience.

 

For example, I have found a few different brands and HPs for sale on wamas, RC, and CL, at various prices. I'd like to run them by someone who has chiller experience and can help me pick the right chiller (I want to get a good brand, not a crap brand that will die on me - and I want to get one that's big enough for my tank). Other questions I have include what size pump do I need to feed the chiller (obviously depends on which one I get), and how do I adjust my current 300w heater after adding a chiller to the system (and what settings will I need in my Apex to control the chiller). Etc.

 

If you can help, please shoot me a PM or reply here, and I will PM you my questions!

 

Thank you!

-Ryan

[extreme_tooth_decay]

I have a pretty frigid ex.

[DaveS]

I don't have much experience with different brands so can't help there. Had an AquaMedic once and wouldn't do that again. Have an AquaLogic now and it's lasted 6 years without any issues. I've never done the drop in chiller, seems simpler with the plumbing but you will be limited in terms of distance/location for the unit.

 

For 150, a 1/4 hp chiller should work. I have a 1/3 for about 275 gallon system and it's fine. My return is T'ed and I plumbed the chiller and UV together off of one side. If inline, put in unions so you can easily pull the chiller out for service if needed. Chillers are basically refrigerators so they sound like one when running (a loud one).

 

Chiller and heater can both be controlled by Apex. Programming is very similar to heater. Just have chiller come on at the high temp and heater on at the low temp. I have a 2-3 degree separation between them. With your water volume, if you find that your chiller and heater both get used on the same day, the temp range may be a too narrow. Basically in the summer, my chiller comes on once a day (maybe 2 on really hot days) but the heater never comes on. In the winter, my heater comes on some but not the chiller.

 

Make sure you find a place to vent the heat from the chiller. It can easily go back into your tank system if you don't.

[Chad]

Lol, Tim. Me too.

 

What kind of pull down are you looking for, Ryan?

 

Allmost always, it's better to get at least a size larger than what you need because it will run for less time (meaning less wear and tear). You'll want a couple of degrees between your chiller "off" point and your heater "on" point and vice versa (e.g., my heater turns on at 78 and off and 80 and my chiller turns on at 82 and off at 80).

 

I run a TECO and I like it. I also have run aqua logic in the past and recommend them.

 

Like Dave mentioned... make sure your chiller can breath. Ideally it would be outside or in another room, but at the very least it should not be in the cabinet.

[trockafella]

Ive owned a couple Current Chillers, they were fine, never had an issues. I ran a 1/3 HP on my 150g, and a 1/10 on a 70g. The 1/10 wasnt to bad on noise and heat, but the 1/3 was. It basically sounds like a refrig running, and they most certainly kick off some heat. I hope to never need one again. The larger ones can cetainly heat up your apartment quickly if it runs for often.

[Ryan S]

Thanks for the replies. I am leaning towards this chiller, JBJ Artica 1/3 HP. Someone is selling it used for a great price. Is this a good brand? The reviews seems positive. It says the min/max flow rate is 480gph/2400gph. That's quite a wide range. So I need to find the right utility pump for the unit. Would this pump work?

 

As for pull down Chad, since I have my Apex turn the MH off at 83 degrees, I am not sure how much pull down I would need. (Would the tank rise to 85, 90, 95, etc, I don't know). So I would say at least 5 degrees, maybe up to 10 or more?

Edited October 26, 2012 by Ryan S

[Ryan S]

i have a few pump options for the jbj artica 1/3 HP chiller. do i want a pump towards the minimum flow rate, the maximum, or somewhere in the middle?

 

rio+ 2100 (692gph)

mag 9.5 (950gph)

mag 18 (1800gph)

[Chad]

Somewhere in the middle.

 

Too low and the concern is freezing (bad).

 

Too high and the concern is pressure based or unnecessary head loss (also bad, but also very unlikely that a hobby pump will produce a high enough pressure to matter - additionally, the heat transfer path is somewhat arduous from a flow standpoint and lower flow is better from a loss perspective here)

 

Bottom line, go somewhere in the middle, but a little higher is probably better than lower.

[Ryan S]

480-2400. Middle=1440gph. the mag 1800 wouldn't be 1800gph if the chiller was 3-4 feet away from the pump next to my tank. so this pump would work the best?

[MBVette]

waterblaster 7500 or 10k

[trockafella]

I think adding another Mag pump is a bad idea. Your adding a lot more heat to your system.

[Ryan S]

I think adding another Mag pump is a bad idea. Your adding a lot more heat to your system.

I wish I knew how much heat it would add. But I agree with you Travis, it's not ideal. I can't think of any other way to add a chiller to my system, and I need the chiller for the 400w MH above.

[Chad]

A mag 18 will add something less than 145 watts or ~500 btus/hr or ~0.2 hp.

 

To quantify further, I'll bet the efficiency of power in to mechanical power is somewhere around 50% or less, so those numbers would actually be something closer to ~70 watts or ~250 btus/hr or ~0.1 hp.

[Ryan S]

A mag 18 will add something less than 145 watts or ~500 btus/hr or ~0.2 hp.

Do you know what that converts to in a temperature increase in a tank with 150g volume? Do you think the 1800 would be too powerful for the chiller? The chiller max is 2400, so it shouldn't be right?

[Chad]

Ryan, what is your return pump?

 

I prefer to overall minimize the effect of a change and have always opted to plumb the chiller in-line with the return. I prefer it because it means I need only one pump, perhaps a little bit bigger of a pump, but only one pump, nonetheless. Prior to my chiller I ran a mag 6, I changed it out for a mag 9.5 when I added the chiller and kept roughly the same flow rate (maybe a little more, but not much).

 

What you are asking isn't that simple, solvable, but not simple. To solve, you need your actual water volume, the power usage and efficiencies of every electrical device in your tank, a shot at the radiative and convective heat from your light and so forth.

 

I think the mag 18 would be fine, though I'd 1) run it externally, and 2) prefer to see you change your return pump for something with a bit more umph.

[Ryan S]

my return pump is a mag 9.5. the person selling the chiller has an extra mag 9.5 available that i could use as well for the chiller. i am not sure if it makes more sense to run a mag 18 for the return, add a T for the chiller; or just run 2 separate, dedicated mag 9.5s, one for the return and one for the chiller (though 950gph is towards the lower end of the chiller's gph flow range); or leave the 9.5 return, and drop in the mag 18 and have it dedicated to the chiller (1800gph is closer to the 2400gph max range for the chiller flow). external isn't really an option with my current stand and setup.

 

the 1/3 HP chiller is over-sized for my 150g reef according to this calculator, i would need a 1/4 HP chiller using both the mag 9.5 and mag 18 pumps in the sump. since the one i am considering is 1/3 HP, wouldn't that mean it can more than handle the extra heat and not become inefficient or anything?

Edited October 26, 2012 by Ryan S

[Chad]

my return pump is a mag 9.5. the person selling the chiller has an extra mag 9.5 available that i could use as well for the chiller. i am not sure if it makes more sense to run a mag 18 for the return, add a T for the chiller; or just run 2 separate, dedicated mag 9.5s, one for the return and one for the chiller (though 950gph is towards the lower end of the chiller's gph flow range); or leave the 9.5 return, and drop in the mag 18 and have it dedicated to the chiller (1800gph is closer to the 2400gph max range for the chiller flow). external isn't really an option with my current stand and setup.

 

the 1/3 HP chiller is over-sized for my 150g reef according to this calculator, i would need a 1/4 HP chiller using both the mag 9.5 and mag 18 pumps in the sump. since the one i am considering is 1/3 HP, wouldn't that mean it can more than handle the extra heat and not become inefficient or anything?

 

 

Ryan, man, you're killing me here. I suppose, yes, that means it can handle the extra heat... but if you're adding it just to remove it, that seems like the textbook example of inefficiency. The idea for oversizing a chiller is that it runs for a shorter period of time, not to fill it to it's capacity.

 

I would plumb the chiller in-line, use the mag 18 (or if you are worried about the flow, go for a WB of comparable flow rate - it's more efficient), have one pump. Simple, more efficient, adequate.

[epleeds]

Why not just try the fan and maybe one of the 250 watt bulbs you bought. see if that is enough to keep the heat down.

[Ryan S]

Why not just try the fan and maybe one of the 250 watt bulbs you bought. see if that is enough to keep the heat down.

Honestly, the more I talk to people, and the more I think about it, I think the chiller is the way to go. The fan will look dumb up there, and may not work at all. The ballast I have is 400w, so I couldn't use a 250w, and I wouldn't want too anyway.

 

I am going to pickup the 1/3 HP chiller tomorrow. I bought a MAG 18 which should arrive next week. I will put the chiller next to my tank (pray it's not super loud), and run the MAG 18 to the chiller, then the chiller output directly to my DT. Seems like an easy and efficient solution, at least for the time being. With that said...

 

I currently have my heater set at: 78 degrees ON, and 78.5 degrees OFF. Should I try to keep my tank in a 0.5 temperature range or a 1.0 range? I want to keep it as narrow as possible w/o overworking the heater or the chiller. (If the answer is 1.0 range: Do I want the apex to turn the chiller on and off, like my heater - or do I let the chiller turn itself on and off? Right now my heater also has a self-control, but I made it so the apex overrides it.)

[Chad]

I like my 4 degree band

 

78 Heat On

80 Heat Off Chill Off

82 Chill On

 

I find this means that on warm days I am in the top half of the band and on cool days I'm in the bottom half. Either way realistically it ends up being a 2F band and it has worked for me for a long time (when I had SHs, it was 10F cooler, but still the same principle).

[Ryan S]

If I wanted a smaller range or band, is there anything wrong with doing that?

 

How about 2 degrees?

 

78 heater on

79 heater off chiller off

80 chiller on

 

OR heck, even 1 degree?

78 heater on

78.5 heater off chiller off

79 chiller on

[DaveS]

a 4 degree swing isn't that bad. Narrower bands means more on/off for the chiller. If you need that for a 4 degree band that's one thing but to do that just to be withing 1 degree is a little anal...

Edited October 26, 2012 by DaveS

[Chad]

Understand that I come from a background of failure prevention, it's what I do for a living, how I think in general and how I set up my tanks... (ask Dave about some of the crazy questions I asked him before I ended up purchasing dive gear... )

 

While I wouldn't necessarily say there is anything "wrong" with it, I don't like the 1 degree band... It will cause everything to cycle more, and everything has an average number of cycles to failure, less cycling equals more reliability and longer life. Since I don't see any benefit to having a 1 or 2 degree band, I don't think the cost (more cycling and earlier failure) is worth the benefit (slightly improved temperature stability).

[DaveS]

Since I don't see any benefit to having a 1 or 2 degree band, I don't think the cost (more cycling and earlier failure) is worth the benefit (slightly improved temperature stability).

 

+1

 

(ask Dave about some of the crazy questions I asked him before I ended up purchasing dive gear... )

 

+100

[Ryan S]

http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=55 says temps above 80 should be avoided.

 

randy holmes-farley says 76-83 is ideal.

 

so much conflicting information out there!