Third Angelfish not eating.

[Jan]

I received a 3rd angelfish last Wednesday. This one replaced the Male Watanabei that wasn't eating and died. This fish hasn't eaten either. I've offered everything. There are no signs of trauma or disease. It's big and appears very healthy. It's in a QT with a spotbreast Angel which was a replacement for the first Spot breast that refused to eat, had parasites and died an agonizingly long death. This spot breast is doing great! Eating like a pig. The fish were treated with prazi. The Watanabei has been hiding for 3 days. Now he's out but breathing rapidly and isn't swimming right. Swim bladder disease? I offered frozen peas. He wont eat them. I mashed them and poured them in the water. Just two. Do fish swallow when they breath? Sounds like a dumb question, but I'm serious, are they swallowing water into their stomach when they breath? I read that peas can help with swimbladder disease, but how do I get him to eat them? He also hasn't pooped. Maybe he wasn't decompressed properly? These are deep water fish and they need time to decompress. I don't know what else to think.

 

Parameters

SG 1.015 (bringing it up .2ppm per day. I started with 1.010)

Nitrities 0

Ammonia 0

Nitrates 0

PH 7.8 (low) brnging it up slowly

alk 11

temp 76.7-77

Tell me your constructive thoughts. Thanks.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Jan

[Jan]

My bad. Powerhead was too strong. Deep water fish not used to a lot of water movement I guess. He still wont eat and he's still breathing very fast. He swims fine and looks great. How long can they go like this? Oh, and PH is now 8.2.

[Origami]

Jan, send a PM to copps. He may be able to offer advice.

[Jan]

Great idea. Thank you, Tom.

 

Jan, send a PM to copps. He may be able to offer advice.

[Origami]

It's nice to have a nationally known resource on angelfish in the club, isn't it?

[Jan]

Yes it is. I don't like to bother him because I know he's very busy, but this one is right up his alley. Thanks again.

 

It's nice to have a nationally known resource on angelfish in the club, isn't it?

[Jan]

I really believe that these fish aren't being decompressed properly. There's no way for me to prove it. I have to go on what La tells me but everything I've read said they suffer from bladder disease because they aren't decompressed properly. these fish are showing all the signs. the rest of the fish are doing fine. The larger, older ones are the ones having issues.

 

I never got an explanation about the last watanbei I got from DD about the laceration on it's side and the popped eye. The laceration was in the area where decompression would be performed. It was a straight clean incision. there was no way that fish got injured like that in transport. the pop eye never got cloudy. May have also been from the bends.

 

3 very healthy looking specimens all exhibiting the same signs and symptoms, all from deep waters...hmmmm.

[zygote2k]

maybe this means you shouldn't be buying deepwater fish that ultimately do poorly in captivity.

some things are best left in the ocean.

[Jan]

Maybe, maybe you missed the part of my post that said "constructive thoughts". Maybe expand your thinking a little; the same way you asked about disease maybe the economy has gotten so bad that businesses are cutting corners. Have you anything constructive to contribute? Anything from personal experience from the decades of being in the hobby? I'm open for constructive suggestions.

 

maybe this means you shouldn't be buying deepwater fish that ultimately do poorly in captivity.

some things are best left in the ocean.

[zygote2k]

If I use your logic here, the economy has gotten so bad in the fish collecting world that they are performing practices that normally would result in excellent fish health, but now that the economy is poor, then they are cutting corners to save money and sell fish without proper decompression. If you know or suspect this to be true, then you as the conscientious marine hobbyist should stop supporting these poor capture techniques by NOT BUYING deepwater fish.

[MBVette]

Jan,

 

Im not buying the decompression sickness off of divers den. They keep those fish for long enough that any of the problems would have shown up with them; and with their reputation Im not buying that they are completely skipping their quarantine and acclimation of these angels. I am by no means an expert, but I think there is something going on in your tank that is causing the issues. There just seems to be a lot of illness and issues w/ fish in there to be blaming LA at this point.

 

Just my $.02

[zygote2k]

I think that now that you have these 3 deepwater angels, that you need to build your tank around their needs. Get rid of the excess tank mates, cut down the corals to a natural selection and try your best to do everything that will make these fish spawn in captivity.

[ErikS]

Im not buying the decompression sickness off of divers den...........something going on in your tank that is causing the issues..........

I'd have to agree, multiple issues point to the tank. Could be something that one can't even test for? Maybe Copps will haven an answer - mysteries like this are hard to track. Had a stint of "non-eating" fails - never did figure it out.

 

Also not buying the deep water angel. I've had a one since it was about thumbnail size (from DD) it's been fine in a fairly high flow tank from day one.

[Jan]

Divers Den fish

- Popped left eye. It came this way.

 

- Laceration on right side. It's t about where decompression would be attempted. This is how it came out of the bag

 

- Ich

Divers den fish - ich

 

All fish are/were in seperate QT. They never entered my DT. Apprently they didn't keep these two long enough.

 

 

 

 

 

Jan,

 

Im not buying the decompression sickness off of divers den. They keep those fish for long enough that any of the problems would have shown up with them; and with their reputation Im not buying that they are completely skipping their quarantine and acclimation of these angels. I am by no means an expert, but I think there is something going on in your tank that is causing the issues. There just seems to be a lot of illness and issues w/ fish in there to be blaming LA at this point.

 

Just my $.02

Edited July 17, 2012 by Jan

[Jan]

Maybe the problem is that this one is close to 7" and has been in the ocean for many yeats. At a thumb nail size it may have better survivability.

 

-Hook worms in the first spotbreast that came fro LA and died.

-Ich, pop eye, laceration and respiratory issues with the Male Watanabei from Divers Den

-This new replacement Watanabei is from Live Aquaria.

- Replacement Spot breast Angel has Lymph and came from Live Aquaria

 

None of the water in my QT is from my tank. My fish aren't exhibiting any of these issues.

 

As I mentioned in another post Live Aquaria fish are not kept for very long. They only treat if something manifests while the fish is there. They move them fast.

You would think that a Divers Den fish would not come with all these issues, but they did. I didn't cut the fish, cause it's eye to pop out and make it get Ich. C'mon even the worst water quality wont cause a fish injury like the one on it's side. Unilateral popped eye is usually from injury. This fish never develeoped bi-lateral pop eye.

 

It's a lot to keep up with. This is why I keep taking pictures. It's also a unbelievable, especially from DD, but that's what the pics are for. Can't deny what the eyes see.

DD's has been really good about helping, but the fact is is that there is something going on with these fish. This is how they are coming to me.

 

The female bellus developed Lymph and so did the replacement spotbreast. I'll post pictures of those too.

 

 

I'd have to agree, multiple issues point to the tank. Could be something that one can't even test for? Maybe Copps will haven an answer - mysteries like this are hard to track. Had a stint of "non-eating" fails - never did figure it out.

 

Also not buying the deep water angel. I've had a one since it was about thumbnail size (from DD) it's been fine in a fairly high flow tank from day one.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Jan

[Jan]

If some of the best marine aquarist and marine biologist can't create an environment to cause these fish to spawn what makes you think I can? Something else I wont aspire to. They are not known to spawn in captivity, ever or anywhere.

 

I think that now that you have these 3 deepwater angels, that you need to build your tank around their needs. Get rid of the excess tank mates, cut down the corals to a natural selection and try your best to do everything that will make these fish spawn in captivity.

[copps]

Hi Jan! I received your PM... and figured I'd reply here...

 

If some of the best marine aquarist and marine biologist can't create an environment to cause these fish to spawn what makes you think I can? Something else I wont aspire to. They are not known to spawn in captivity, ever or anywhere.

 

Before we get started, I need to address this. Not sure where you received your info, but there are spawning Genicanthus all over the world in captivity, including my house! You perhaps may be referring to spawning and RAISING Genicanthus in captivity, which has been done just once, by the great Karen Brittain in Waikiki... here's an article I wrote on one of her other accomplishments... a BRILLIANT breeder with a blue thumb. Not sure what you meant by the "something else I won't aspire to" comment... one of the pleasures of keeping angelfish in pairs and harems is watching nightly spawning!

 

http://glassbox-design.com/2010/captive-bred-amphiprion-latezonatus/

 

Back to the topic of your Genicanthus I will address a number of details, but first I need to address some circumstances generally... I read your PM and this thread, and took a quick skim of some of your recent posts in regards to your Genicanthus and quarantine. I applaud you for wanting to learn quarantine and develop proper protocols. Like everything else in this hobby, and in life, there is a learning curve. Developing experience with quarantining is like learning to ride a bike in a way. You could read ten books and have ten people explain to you how to ride a bike, yet the first number of times you do it you are going to fall down. All of us need to "cut our QT teeth" so to speak. One of the big mistakes you are making is that is all too common is that you are cutting your QT teeth with the wrong fish... the equivalent of trying to learn how to ride a bike on a Penny-farthing from the late 1800s (the ones with the large front wheel)!

 

Genicanthus are rather problematic in the first place... the larger the fish the larger the problems, with large males being the worst! You've chosen the worst of the Penny-farthings! I always recommend growing out smaller juvenile or female Genicanthus, and letting them decide down the line who will be the male, but that is not the root of your problems. I always recommend people cut their QT teeth with more forgiving species.

 

The worst thing for ANY new fish, especially problematic ones, is STRESS. The Diver's Den of Live Aquaria is by far the gold standard for national online livestock dealers... especially for fish... I know this industry very well and have seen many of the behind the scenes of these online businesses (including a day in Rhinelander with Kevin Kohen) and I can say that there is not even a close second place when it comes to fish especially. Fish are much harder to do than corals, and many people in the business pass them on like a hot potato. With that said, that does not mean you will get a 100% fully adapted disease free conditioned fish all of the time from the DD. There is no business model that would succeed in providing that. I put my fish through sometimes months of QT to accomplish this. Live Aquaria does however do a darn good job. So, issues like the cut you show on the side and the popped eye will arise, but those are minor and I would not be concerned with them up front.

 

With the above said, I'll address this recent large male watanabei. You mention you got this fish six days ago, and already it's had these stressors...

 

1. Treated with Prazi- from your PM I could not tell if this was for the melanospilos or watanabei... but I'll say that after placing a new fish in a quiet and stress free QT your first priority is feeding... many medications inhibit feeding, including Prazi, and so I'll only treat prophylactically after a fish is adapted well and feeding.

 

2. The fish was "in hypo for a few days"- I do not have more details on this other than what you mentioned in your PM, but this is unnecessary stress at a minimum and potentially catastrophic at a max. Again, fish received from the DD will be generally of good health, so there is no need to take such drastic measures up front. Are the DD fish always disease free? Absolutely not, and they don't claim them to be. If they do have a parasite like Cryptocaryon for example is will be very light and take a number of life cycles to get to plague proportions. Are you keeping your QT apart from your main system? Many times people will introduce maladies from their display systems which could be done with just a drop (or less!) or water.

 

3. A powerhead that was too strong and caused "strange swimming"- Keep in mind that like humans, fish are exposed to maladies all the time, yet many times only succumb to them when stressed. It is WAY TOO COMMON in this hobby for people to blame the maladies themselves rather than the conditions or stress that led the maladies to take root. This can be fish disease, coral predators, or even the reason your angelfish started picking on your corals!

 

4. Mixing fish in QT- This is something that can be done with experience and I do it often, but mixing multiple Genicanthus, especially Genicanthus MALES, is something I would not do in any QT or even display. Even if you do not see obvious aggression, this adds stress. In addition to potential problems having the two fish together in terms of aggression, you run the problem of having to treat both fish if a problem arises with just one of them.

 

To find other stressors I'd need to be shoulder to shoulder with you for a week or so... everything we do is important in this hobby... give the same hardware and livestock to a thousand different hobbyists and you'll get a thousand different results. But as I said above gain EXPERIENCE with more forgiving fish and aspire to accomplishable and realistic goals for yourself.

 

One other note on Genicanthus... the cooler the system the better with all species... some more than others... some species REQUIRE cool water long term, but all will benefit from it up front. I run my QTs as cool as possible for just about everything now, which will also slow metabolism for fish not feeding and allow them to last longer. Oh, and rather than concentrating on WHAT you are feeding these fish concentrate more on the stressors mentioned above... the issues come not in finding a magic food, but rather making a fish feel comfortable enough to start feeding.

 

Again Jan I applaud your efforts to QT and learn, but know your boundaries and limits... we as aquarists have a moral obligation to every living thing we take in, whether it is a dollar or a thousand. We are all always learning and no one knows it all in this hobby. I regularly run between five and seven QTs and have had a house full of fish for over 25 years since I was a kid and I am still learning. Taking a 7" male watanabei is a challenge to anyone regardless of experience.

 

Now to address the current state of where your watanabei is now... from your PM you said he is breathing heavy and has not eaten, but otherwise looks fine? Six days of not eating is nothing to worry about, especially for a fish that size. The nice thing is that larger fish almost always have more negatives, but one of the positives it the length of time they can go without feeding increases with size as they are able to eat into their fat reserves more. One thing I can say is DO NOT force feed as you did with the past specimen... that does way more harm than good. This is a process that can and has been done successfully, but it involves anesthesia and placing food directly into the gut, not the mouth. What size QT is it in and what else is in there? What is the fish being treated with right now? Are you heating the water? Is there a light over the QT?

 

Hope this is a good start,

 

Copps

[Sharkey18]

Wow, fantastic info for all of us. Thanks so much for sharing.

[Sharkey18]

Wow, fantastic info for all of us. Thanks so much for sharing.

[Jan]

It's a great start! Thank you, John. what has transpired is lengthy and can be confusing.

 

The new male Genicanthius Watanabei is from Live Aquaria. He is in a 29 gallon Qt all by himself. I started with SG 1.010 and have raised the SG to 1.020 over several days. I did not treat that tank with any medication, yet. The lights are dim and he has two large PVC pipes in which to hide. It's in the basement where there's very little traffic. It's quiet and dark down there. I did have powerful powerhead in that tank that I've removed and replaced with a less powerful one. the fish is out and about. Swimming fine but does go to the surface, is breathing rapidly and has not eaten. I check that tanks parameters twice a day beccause it's fairly new. So far all parameters and temp are stable and withing normal limits.

 

The first Genicanthus Melanospilos that died was from Live Aquaria. I treated it with prazi several days after it arrived when it started going to the surface and breathing heavy. What came out/off that fish were several reddish brown worms that appeared round at one end. He probobly had them in his gills and never recovered. He was a perfect looking fish.

 

The second replacement Genicanthus Melanospilos, also from Live Aquaria, is doing fine except it has lymph cysts all over. Eats great and never hides. It's been about 2-3 weeks now. He was in a QT all by himslef.

 

The first Genicanthus Watanabei, the one that came with injuries, came with a female mate and a female bellus as part of the order from Divers Den. The two females are doing fine. The Male broke out with ich several days later and several hours later so did the two females. That is when DD advised me to treat with 1/2 strength copper safe and full strength formalin for 6-8 weeks. The ich was gone the next day but it still wasn't eating. That's when we decided to force feed. He belly was sunken. I discussed this with the DD supervisor at length. I did get the food in it's gut and it was very stressful for the fish, but he perked up shortly after. We thought he would pull through but several days later he started breathing faster, got panicked, thrashed about, collapsed and died. It appeared as though he was suffocating. these fish arrived june 28th and treatment started about 7 or 10 days later. The two females are still in Qt all by themselves doing very well.

 

I've got 3 QT tanks set up. Not a pretty site and a lot of work!

 

My concern at this point is that this new male GW from Live Aquaria may have parasites as well. This one came from Live Aquaria. He is exhibitng all the signs of the first GM that came with parasitic copepods. LA does not take the same precautions that Divers den does. This I confirmed with A couple of supervisors and during my discussion with DD supervisor. This is why I chose to go with Divers Den for the GW's. LA fish having parasites is more likely than ones from Divers Den. LA in California is a vendor whereas Divers Den in Wiscosin is not. i didn't know any of this until I asked specfic questions. 1 person in customer service told me that California is supposed to be adhereing to the same protocols as Wisconsin but then I found out from a supervisor that they do not. They do not treat prophylactically whereas Divers den does. They only treat if they see something. One supervisor in customer service wasn't even aware of their divers Den policy for Qt, treatment, etc. Another told me that in the 6 years she was there she knew for a fact that LA does not do the same things that DD does. So, all fish must be treated as if they were not treated. I place them in QT and observe. Then treat according to what I see/suspect only after I consult with others. With these fish I called several times for guidance. When I found out that customer service could not answer some basic questions is when I was given a direct line to the coral farm supervisor. all my treatment discussions have been with him, but he has no explanation as to why these fish are dying or in distress like this.

 

This is the last one for me. If this one doesn't make it then I'm finished with Genicanthus angel fish.

 

Hi Jan! I received your PM... and figured I'd reply here...

 

Before we get started, I need to address this. Not sure where you received your info, but there are spawning Genicanthus all over the world in captivity, including my house! You perhaps may be referring to spawning and RAISING Genicanthus in captivity, which has been done just once, by the great Karen Brittain in Waikiki... here's an article I wrote on one of her other accomplishments... a BRILLIANT breeder with a blue thumb. Not sure what you meant by the "something else I won't aspire to" comment... one of the pleasures of keeping angelfish in pairs and harems is watching nightly spawning!

 

http://glassbox-desi...on-latezonatus/

 

Back to the topic of your Genicanthus I will address a number of details, but first I need to address some circumstances generally... I read your PM and this thread, and took a quick skim of some of your recent posts in regards to your Genicanthus and quarantine. I applaud you for wanting to learn quarantine and develop proper protocols. Like everything else in this hobby, and in life, there is a learning curve. Developing experience with quarantining is like learning to ride a bike in a way. You could read ten books and have ten people explain to you how to ride a bike, yet the first number of times you do it you are going to fall down. All of us need to "cut our QT teeth" so to speak. One of the big mistakes you are making is that is all too common is that you are cutting your QT teeth with the wrong fish... the equivalent of trying to learn how to ride a bike on a Penny-farthing from the late 1800s (the ones with the large front wheel)!

 

Genicanthus are rather problematic in the first place... the larger the fish the larger the problems, with large males being the worst! You've chosen the worst of the Penny-farthings! I always recommend growing out smaller juvenile or female Genicanthus, and letting them decide down the line who will be the male, but that is not the root of your problems. I always recommend people cut their QT teeth with more forgiving species.

 

The worst thing for ANY new fish, especially problematic ones, is STRESS. The Diver's Den of Live Aquaria is by far the gold standard for national online livestock dealers... especially for fish... I know this industry very well and have seen many of the behind the scenes of these online businesses (including a day in Rhinelander with Kevin Kohen) and I can say that there is not even a close second place when it comes to fish especially. Fish are much harder to do than corals, and many people in the business pass them on like a hot potato. With that said, that does not mean you will get a 100% fully adapted disease free conditioned fish all of the time from the DD. There is no business model that would succeed in providing that. I put my fish through sometimes months of QT to accomplish this. Live Aquaria does however do a darn good job. So, issues like the cut you show on the side and the popped eye will arise, but those are minor and I would not be concerned with them up front.

 

With the above said, I'll address this recent large male watanabei. You mention you got this fish six days ago, and already it's had these stressors...

 

1. Treated with Prazi- from your PM I could not tell if this was for the melanospilos or watanabei... but I'll say that after placing a new fish in a quiet and stress free QT your first priority is feeding... many medications inhibit feeding, including Prazi, and so I'll only treat prophylactically after a fish is adapted well and feeding.

 

2. The fish was "in hypo for a few days"- I do not have more details on this other than what you mentioned in your PM, but this is unnecessary stress at a minimum and potentially catastrophic at a max. Again, fish received from the DD will be generally of good health, so there is no need to take such drastic measures up front. Are the DD fish always disease free? Absolutely not, and they don't claim them to be. If they do have a parasite like Cryptocaryon for example is will be very light and take a number of life cycles to get to plague proportions. Are you keeping your QT apart from your main system? Many times people will introduce maladies from their display systems which could be done with just a drop (or less!) or water.

 

3. A powerhead that was too strong and caused "strange swimming"- Keep in mind that like humans, fish are exposed to maladies all the time, yet many times only succumb to them when stressed. It is WAY TOO COMMON in this hobby for people to blame the maladies themselves rather than the conditions or stress that led the maladies to take root. This can be fish disease, coral predators, or even the reason your angelfish started picking on your corals!

 

4. Mixing fish in QT- This is something that can be done with experience and I do it often, but mixing multiple Genicanthus, especially Genicanthus MALES, is something I would not do in any QT or even display. Even if you do not see obvious aggression, this adds stress. In addition to potential problems having the two fish together in terms of aggression, you run the problem of having to treat both fish if a problem arises with just one of them.

 

To find other stressors I'd need to be shoulder to shoulder with you for a week or so... everything we do is important in this hobby... give the same hardware and livestock to a thousand different hobbyists and you'll get a thousand different results. But as I said above gain EXPERIENCE with more forgiving fish and aspire to accomplishable and realistic goals for yourself.

 

One other note on Genicanthus... the cooler the system the better with all species... some more than others... some species REQUIRE cool water long term, but all will benefit from it up front. I run my QTs as cool as possible for just about everything now, which will also slow metabolism for fish not feeding and allow them to last longer. Oh, and rather than concentrating on WHAT you are feeding these fish concentrate more on the stressors mentioned above... the issues come not in finding a magic food, but rather making a fish feel comfortable enough to start feeding.

 

Again Jan I applaud your efforts to QT and learn, but know your boundaries and limits... we as aquarists have a moral obligation to every living thing we take in, whether it is a dollar or a thousand. We are all always learning and no one knows it all in this hobby. I regularly run between five and seven QTs and have had a house full of fish for over 25 years since I was a kid and I am still learning. Taking a 7" male watanabei is a challenge to anyone regardless of experience.

 

Now to address the current state of where your watanabei is now... from your PM you said he is breathing heavy and has not eaten, but otherwise looks fine? Six days of not eating is nothing to worry about, especially for a fish that size. The nice thing is that larger fish almost always have more negatives, but one of the positives it the length of time they can go without feeding increases with size as they are able to eat into their fat reserves more. One thing I can say is DO NOT force feed as you did with the past specimen... that does way more harm than good. This is a process that can and has been done successfully, but it involves anesthesia and placing food directly into the gut, not the mouth. What size QT is it in and what else is in there? What is the fish being treated with right now? Are you heating the water? Is there a light over the QT?

 

Hope this is a good start,

 

Copps

Edited July 17, 2012 by Jan

[ErikS]

Maybe the problem is that this one is close to 7" and has been in the ocean for many yeats. At a thumb nail size it may have better survivability.....

Good point, I've had the same experience - larger fish seem tougher.......just like people, kids are far more adaptable than adults.

[copps]

 

 

My concern at this point is that this new male GW from Live Aquaria may have parasites as well. This one came from Live Aquaria. He is exhibitng all the signs of the first GM that came with parasitic copepods. LA does not take the same precautions that Divers den does. This I confirmed with A couple of supervisors and during my discussion with DD supervisor. This is why I chose to go with Divers Den for the GW's. LA fish having parasites is more likely than ones from Divers Den. LA in California is a vendor whereas Divers Den in Wiscosin is not. i didn't know any of this until I asked specfic questions. 1 person in customer service told me that California is supposed to be adhereing to the same protocols as Wisconsin but then I found out from a supervisor that they do not. They do not treat prophylactically whereas Divers den does. They only treat if they see something. One supervisor in customer service wasn't even aware of their divers Den policy for Qt, treatment, etc. Another told me that in the 6 years she was there she knew for a fact that LA does not do the same things that DD does. So, all fish must be treated as if they were not treated. I place them in QT and observe. Then treat according to what I see/suspect only after I consult with others. With these fish I called several times for guidance. When I found out that customer service could not answer some basic questions is when I was given a direct line to the coral farm supervisor. all my treatment discussions have been with him, but he has no explanation as to why these fish are dying or in distress like this.

 

 

I can breakdown the Diver's Den/ "regular Live Aquaria" difference in terms that their employees cannot. Are both good sources for livestock? Yes. Are there substantial differences in the two? Yes. There is sort of a secret that's not so much a secret in our industry... The livestock business is a tough one... and so MANY wholesalers have either a retail business name or an affiliation with a retail business to drop ship their livestock. Most all of the big guns for livestock are like this... Blue Zoo Aquatics... Live Aquaria... Pacific Island Aquatics... when you order from them the fish are coming from the same facility as a wholesale facility with a different name. Again this is nothing novel... but the employees will never mention it because the retail ends of the wholesale side are direct competitors with the retail shops that order wholesale from them.

 

Drs. Foster and Smith... that HUGE company that is one of the largest pet supply companies in the world... is located in Rhinelander, Wisconsin... on the same property as all of Live Aquaria's staff and all of the livestock seen in the Diver's Den. The Diver's Den has GREAT sources for livestock and orders from many wholesalers to get the wide variety of livestock they have... I've seen many facilities and this is by far the best. I know Kevin Kohen, the Director, well and on top of being a great person he is extremely knowledgeable. I know many people in this industry and I have more respect for Kevin than most all. He knows his stuff and much of what we like about Live Aquaria we owe to him... period.

 

Now, when you order livestock from Live Aquaria that is not in the Diver's Den... not WYSIWYG, it comes from their "California facility". Well, there California facility is not Live Aquaria's at all, but the wholesaler Quality Marine in Los Angeles. When you order from them your order is drop shipped from that facility... the same stock and facility when a retail shop orders from Quality Marine. This may sound bad, but what Live Aquaria is to the online RETAIL world, Quality Marine is to the wholesale world. Right by the LAX airport on 104th street there is a line of wholesalers and I've visited most of them. Quality Marine is the gold standard by far... The only thing people can argue is their pricing, but they get those prices for a reason. Many wholesalers are a MESS... and abomination... many are just okay... Quality Marine ROCKS! I won't go into the details but they are the gold standard again...

 

So, the BEST option by far ONLINE (support our great local businesses too!) is ordering from Live Aquaria's Diver's Den... The system for taking in livestock they have is second to none. The next best option is ordering from the "California facility", which results in drop shipping from the best of the wholesalers. I will also add that I travel regularly to Hawaii and for years have known and had beers with the owner of Pacific Island Aquatics, long before he had that business and was just wholesaling.

 

So... back to your fish... in regards to powerheads for QT I love these...

 

http://premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-supplies/T6015.html

 

Do you notice any symptoms other than rapid breathing? Any cloudy eyes or damaged fins?

 

A week of not eating is nothing to worry about yet. Force feeding as you did just does not work in my opinion. There are ways to do it correctly but it is not easy and requires lots of practice. For now keep good water conditions with the fish calm... the nice thing about those powerheads is that they keep the food suspended and entice planktivores well like Genicanthus.

 

Do not worry about Lymphocystis... it will go away with good conditions and time...

 

In regards to when you saw the ick I WOULD NOT have treated with formalin... copper treatment will take care of the ick 100%... and formalin is harsh... but again these treatments all have a learning curve and require MANY judgement calls... ideally learned with more forgiving species and genera as addressed above. I prefer using Cupramine, and ease into to the full dose over the course of days starting with about 1/4 the dose on the first day. This results in less inhibition of a feeding response and is generally better in my experience... with a light case of ick up front you have time to ramp the dose up... the issue with these treatments is that you may have a disease free fish but it won't matter because it never feeds again and dies... so again the balancing act and judgement calls.

 

 

Copps

[Jan]

I'm really leaning towards this more than anything else. No joke! That's why I say that it may be decompression issue. These fish are large. I don't get to choose which fish Drs Foster and Smith sends me. Everything I've read from wetwemmedia to reefcentral suggests issues often seen with these fish because they have a hard time adapting to shallow waters largely because of poor decompression. GW's, from what I've read online, are the hardiest of all the genicanthus when it comes to disease.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/hcs3/index.php

 

With the first one, the spot breast angel, I thought cyanide poisoning because it exhibited all the signs, just like this new watanabei, but after reading about poor decompression I'm leaning towards this being the issue. The labored breathing, unstable swimming along with not eating are consistantly seen in both situations. Maybe these fish just can't adapt to the shallow water? They're too big. They've been in the ocean at depths greater than 70 feet for too long. Copps pretty much confirmed that the smaller ones do better.

 

There is no way for a hobbiest to know this about these fish. When you see such a reputable organization like Live Aquaria and Divers Den selling them with no mention of why they are difficult, other than they are difficult; "very susceptible to swim bladder damage" (why?) and they "are difficult to breed" (who cares?). The resposability must fall back to the seller and suppliers. They should elaborate and mention what makes them susceptable to swim bladder damage. It isn't the common maladies; picky eater, prone to ich, etc. http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+18+1708&pcatid=1708 Imagine my frustration when I asked customer service and they really could not answer my question. I did get "we wont ship it to you unless it's eating and swimming fine." Ok! Not the case. Only the one from Divers Den was swimming fine, but he came with injuries that he should not have had. I'm sorry but elite of the elite means just that at at $399.00 a pair I want healthy, spotless, eating great fish!!! At least give me a running start. I should not have to treat with copper and formalin for 6-8 weeks. I want the elite of the elite; in color, form, etc.. as was stated by a customer service supervisor.

 

Only in searching and searching for answers do I find consistantly that Genicanthus suffer with swim bladder usually from improper decompression http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/9/fish

 

I've never had this kind of failure rate with any fish. I put a lot of time, effort and thought into my purchases because of the cost (I hate losing money) and because I don't see myself as an above average hobbiest and do not want to do any harm. It's not my nature to take on more than I understand or can handle.

 

These fish have been a huge dissapointment. They really should not be sold at this size. I already have 3 great healthy Genicanthus that I purchased from Sean of F&F's; 2 Genicanthus Melanospilos and 1 Genicanthus Bellus. He made sure they were eating and healthy before he sold them to me. They are thriving and came with no issues. They were also purchase much smaller than the males from Drs. Foster and Smith. Had I known I would have searched for and purchased smaller females and watched them change into males.

 

I'm in constant contact with the supervisor of the Coral Farm for Drs. Foster and Smith Divers Den in Wisconsin. I'll continue to work with him on how to stabalize this fish. That's really what I need right now. Thanks to everyone for your constructive comments and thoughts. I appreciate your time and thoughts, always.

Jan

 

Good point, I've had the same experience - larger fish seem tougher.......just like people, kids are far more adaptable than adults.

[Origami]

I came across some of Copps' advice about QT'ing delicate species yesterday in response to a problem that another WAMAS member was having a while back. I thought it a good read and am copying it here. (Hope you don't mind, John.) In this case, Sam had a sick angel and moved quickly to treat it with medication.... It reads,

 

Hey Sam, I would remove the Prazipro as soon as you can and do a 100% water change on the QT (I regularly do 100% water changes on my QTs). With tough-to-adapt species like this it is especially important to feed early and often, and not submit them to any treatments for at least a few weeks (I prefer at least a month) when the fish otherwise looks good and is feeding. I would not expose this fish to your system water, as many times there are certain diseases present in our displays that will prey on these new and susceptible fish... These fish especially need to recoup fat reserves and adapt in as stress free an environment as possible... keeping them together, even with very little aggression, is stressful, as are treatments like Prazipro (think chemotherapy for humans).

 

Newly imported C. multifasciata are very touchy, even when 100% healthy, and many times starting an unnecessary treatment too early can set them back... priority 1 for new fish is getting them into a stress free clean environment... priority two is getting them feeding and adapted... priority three is then treating them on a preventative basis.

 

I always say "there are no angels that are hard to keep, only those that are hard to adapt," and that is the case with this species... I kept one for over four years and once they settle in they are as bulletproof as any other Centropyge. However, so many of these come in in that "living dead" category, where no treatment from us will help them. This species should be very expensive, as they are deep, reclusive, and tough to catch, but many collectors do not care because they get paid and hobbyists like us suffer the consequences... buying a conditioned fish that has been in captivity for weeks and is feeding and adapted will cost more but when you look at the survival rates it benefits you much more do do it that way. From my experience, specimens collected in the Marshall Islands tend to fare better when it comes to the adapting part...

 

Reference.

[Jan]

Hi John,

 

No, no spots, no cloudy eyes, no nothing. Just rapid breathing and head up tail down swimming around once in a while. He hangs at the surface more times than not.

He's in a dimly lit tank with very small tunze powerheads that i used for my seahorse tank.

 

I'm not concerned about the lymph. It was just another something that came with these fish. that fish is in QT by himslef.

 

I consulted with the supervior of the coral farm in Wisconsin before before any treatment. His advice was to treat with coppersafe 1/2 strength and formaline every other day full strength. I know that Angels are very sensitive to copper and questioned this treatment many times in my conversation with him. He told me this is how he treats his fish at their facility when something arises. He also told me to make sure the temp does not drop as a change in temp downward can bring on ich. So all water changes should be made with water that is brought up to tank temp. I know about the balancing act; medication reduces appetite, especially copper, so I'm not treating this one with anything. I didn't know about the stored fat so Im not concerned about it eating, yet.

 

I'm still thinking it's swim bladder...

 

 

http://premiumaquati...lies/T6015.html

 

Do you notice any symptoms other than rapid breathing? Any cloudy eyes or damaged fins?

 

A week of not eating is nothing to worry about yet. Force feeding as you did just does not work in my opinion. There are ways to do it correctly but it is not easy and requires lots of practice. For now keep good water conditions with the fish calm... the nice thing about those powerheads is that they keep the food suspended and entice planktivores well like Genicanthus.

 

Do not worry about Lymphocystis... it will go away with good conditions and time...

 

In regards to when you saw the ick I WOULD NOT have treated with formalin... copper treatment will take care of the ick 100%... and formalin is harsh... but again these treatments all have a learning curve and require MANY judgement calls... ideally learned with more forgiving species and genera as addressed above. I prefer using Cupramine, and ease into to the full dose over the course of days starting with about 1/4 the dose on the first day. This results in less inhibition of a feeding response and is generally better in my experience... with a light case of ick up front you have time to ramp the dose up... the issue with these treatments is that you may have a disease free fish but it won't matter because it never feeds again and dies... so again the balancing act and judgement calls.

 

 

Copps