hlem June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 (edited) I'm pro LEDS all day every day... but lately, the newer, fancier LED fixtures prices cant justify the cost saving on the electrical bill anymore... you'll have to keep the fixture its full lifetime and never upgrade to save anything, if any... Personally, i'm using a single, 120W, not too expensive LED fixture, just to try LED before I was sold on LED, but to me, only DIY LED is the only real way to save any $$... people are saying... the LEDS are becoming just as good as the MH, but the cost right now is still crazy... so what are other cost saving "incentive" reasons that can be justified for a new fancy LED fixture? Edited June 21, 2012 by hlem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icecool2 June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 I have to agree with you. It amazes me that I was able to build a fully capable, 4' fixture myself years ago before LEDs were even big in this hobby for under $1000. If I crank my LEDs to full power, I can get over 400 lumens on the sandbed, most of these fixtures can't even come close. They charge for all of the bells and whistles. Who needs a storm effect? Why do you need wifi control? Are you really going to benefit from having the ability to set the color to be like Tahiti? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan S June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 Remember, with any new industry, prices start high and will drop with time. Just look at HDTVs, computers, etc. The private sector will see more competition, more choices, and price drops with time. I wasn't in the hobby when MHs and T5s came out, but I'm willing to bet they are super cheap today compared to when they first came out. LEDs will do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icecool2 June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 What's puzzling to me is that the prices seem to have started low and are creeping higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlem June 21, 2012 Author Share June 21, 2012 (edited) Remember, with any new industry, prices start high and will drop with time. Just look at HDTVs, computers, etc. The private sector will see more competition, more choices, and price drops with time. I wasn't in the hobby when MHs and T5s came out, but I'm willing to bet they are super cheap today compared to when they first came out. LEDs will do the same thing. i've been in the hobby for 3-4 years now, and the T5 are all relatively the same now as they were then. cant say the same about MH tho since i dont use it. The companies making these fancy LEDs are not working towards to make the LEDs better, they're just making it fancier... and jacking up the prices for those features while the LEDs are pretty much the same...maybe a little more efficient than when it first came out, but relatively the same... Edited June 21, 2012 by hlem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlem June 21, 2012 Author Share June 21, 2012 What's puzzling to me is that the prices seem to have started low and are creeping higher. I'm just guessing, but I bet it's because they are spending money on hiring programmers to fancy up the LEDs... and programmers are expensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan S June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 so what are other cost saving "incentive" reasons that can be justified for a new fancy LED fixture? For me, the #1 financial incentive is on bulb replacements. For example, when considering a T5 fixture for my tank, I was looking at the ATI 36" 10x39W Powermodule ($1300). Chris Tran had T5s over the same tank and his tank looked awesome. But 10 new T5 bulbs would run $200/year. So the 2 radions ($1500) would pay for themselves after 2 years. (And DIY LEDs would pay for themselves even sooner). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlem June 21, 2012 Author Share June 21, 2012 For me, the #1 financial incentive is on bulb replacements. For example, when considering a T5 fixture for my tank, I was looking at the ATI 36" 10x39W Powermodule ($1300). Chris Tran had T5s over the same tank and his tank looked awesome. But 10 new T5 bulbs would run $200/year. So the 2 radions ($1500) would pay for themselves after 2 years. (And DIY LEDs would pay for themselves even sooner). if you're comparing power output. 10x39W is 390W total. 2 radions is ~260W, you actually need another radion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trockafella June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 Youre awfully confident that an LED emitter will never go bad. If it does you have to replace it, or the driver, or any other item that can fail. I agree that LEDs seeem to get more expensive. Yes they have lots of features, but features that arent needed to grow coral, just needed to attempt to justify the extremely high cost. I agree that a DIY LED system is budget friendly and you most likely will see savings quickly. For my tank I would need 2 radions ($1500) or my 4 bulb T5/LED unit ($260)... I cant justify the extra $1240 upfront cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlem June 21, 2012 Author Share June 21, 2012 Youre awfully confident that an LED emitter will never go bad. If it does you have to replace it, or the driver, or any other item that can fail. I agree that LEDs seeem to get more expensive. Yes they have lots of features, but features that arent needed to grow coral, just needed to attempt to justify the extremely high cost. I agree that a DIY LED system is budget friendly and you most likely will see savings quickly. For my tank I would need 2 radions ($1500) or my 4 bulb T5/LED unit ($260)... I cant justify the extra $1240 upfront cost. what size tank do you have? how is it that Ryan's tank requires 10x39W or 2 Radions, but you also require 2 radions but 4 T5/LEDs? shouldnt it be 1 radion or 1/2 radion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan S June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 For the same 36"x36" cube, a single 400w MH fixture/ballast (used) would cost $300; and $80/year for the bulb = $1100 over 10 years vs $1200 for 2 used radions. So then electric would need to be >$100 over 10 years to make the single MH cheaper. Still close though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trockafella June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 my tank is 48x18x18. I use a 4x39w T5 with a built in strip of 15x1w LEDs. No way I could get away with 1 radion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlem June 21, 2012 Author Share June 21, 2012 For the same 36"x36" cube, a single 400w MH fixture/ballast (used) would cost $300; and $80/year for the bulb = $1100 over 10 years vs $1200 for 2 used radions. So then electric would need to be >$100 over 10 years to make the single MH cheaper. Still close though. 10 years is a long time... has anyone from WAMAS been in the hobby that long and not changed out their lighting system at least once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowieReefer84 June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 my tank is 48x18x18. I use a 4x39w T5 with a built in strip of 15x1w LEDs. No way I could get away with 1 radion. THIS. I designed my tank 55"x22" so I can use a 48" 6 bulb T5 setup, while having basically full coverage. With radions I would need 3! No brainer. IF I wanted LED's it would be 100% diy like I had on the biocube. A mix of CREE rb, cw, nw, ww, and b. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlem June 21, 2012 Author Share June 21, 2012 THIS. I designed my tank 55"x22" so I can use a 48" 6 bulb T5 setup, while having basically full coverage. With radions I would need 3! No brainer. IF I wanted LED's it would be 100% diy like I had on the biocube. A mix of CREE rb, cw, nw, ww, and b. do you have an estimate cost cree DIY for your tank? I'm planning on DIYing the chinese 10W,20W,50W LEDs, and my estimate is around $450-500 to cover my 84x24x29 tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowieReefer84 June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 (edited) do you have an estimate cost cree DIY for your tank? I'm planning on DIYing the chinese 10W,20W,50W LEDs, and my estimate is around $450-500 to cover my 84x24x29 tank. I did a 24 led setup, 2 drivers, with a dimmer on a heatsink. Price was right around $300. I figure it was the equiv to a 250 halide from what I understand anyways. Basically if I were to DIY LED's for my new tank I would use 72 LED's on three heatsinks. Somewhat like 3 pendants. Cost would be $900, which is way less than $2,250. Even still, $900 is a lot. I am going T5 just because I want too. Of course they are UGLY, and would need something to conceal them. If you have a hood this won't be an issue. Edited June 21, 2012 by BowieReefer84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 FWIW, I am into my DIY LED setup ~$1400. IMO, it looks nice and can compete in terms of features with any COTS unit out there and is roughly comparable to 2-3 radions of light output. Of course, that's in theory as it is still on my dining room table awaiting me to return to it... (my months long time sucking project is done, after I finish catchup on other stuff that fell behind, I'll be back to it... next week maybe!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 I see this as an on going thing for years to come. It really depends on what type of look you want. If you have a cabinet or your aquarium is behind a wall than installing DIY LED's makes sense, but if you have a rimless aquarium in front of a nice room than I would pay extra to have it look sleek. All is all LED's will soon take over. The biggest question I have is that there maybe 30 different brands why are radions so highly regarded. I know they are nice, but whats wrong with the other brands? You here they do this and that, but how do they seriously compare power wise to similiar LED modules. The price for a Radion is about 4x the cost of a DIY. I just have a hard time digesting that. LED's are so easy to set up. They are now as easy as screwing in a light bulb. Pretty much plug and play. On a different note the next big thing you will see is special LED reflectors. I have heard some are in development that can save additional energy. The LED war is far from over, but I fell that DIY LED's will be around for a long long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 And by the way I spent around $300 and I would bet my set up of 33 LED's could outperform a Radion. Been 2 years running now and never had an issue. My set up just doesn't have red lights or bells and wistles that no one ever uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikS June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 .....I'm just guessing, but I bet it's because they are spending money on hiring programmers to fancy up the LEDs... and programmers are expensive... Quite a few reasons but chief among them is a patent camper. All dimming fixtures sold in the USA must pay royalties. Remember the first producer was driven into bankruptcy because they didn't pay. 10 years is a long time... has anyone from WAMAS been in the hobby that long and not changed out their lighting system at least once? Me, used MH for that long. Not the exact same fixture but the same cap & coil MH. I wouldn't expect to re-coup the cost of LED but it's also more than the bulbs & electric cost. Factor in all the associated costs such as heat added to the house, cooling the tank, water costs for higher evap rates...... It will differ for everyone but look at all the associated costs (some are +'s like the heat in the winter). In my case I use 3 75w units. One would assume that's 3x75 versus my old MH @ 2x250 (they were M80 so more like 310x2). So that's 225 versus 620............but.......I can't run the LEDs at full tilt, more like 50% = 115w. T5s are a good example, the good fixtures haven't really come down in price - why? Mostly quality doesn't come cheap. You can buy a ton of cheap rubbish fixtures but if you want good you'll have to pay. Our equipment has to function in a harsh environment - cheap generally doesn't survive long. Also don't forget it's a small market. We'll never see the economies of scale that come with larger markets (i.e. HDTVs). It's easy to drop the cost per unit of household LED bulbs when you sell millions of units per year...........it's very hard to drop the cost when you sell in the 1,000's per year. Kind of like driving a hybrid (or all electric) - you'll likely never make up the cost but maybe you have other reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlem June 21, 2012 Author Share June 21, 2012 I wasnt really debating whether LED is worth it or not. I'm in the LED bandwagon all the way... the question was whether the nice fancy fixture can justify its cost... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surf&turf June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 And by the way I spent around $300 and I would bet my set up of 33 LED's could outperform a Radion. Been 2 years running now and never had an issue. My set up just doesn't have red lights or bells and wistles that no one ever uses. You forgot "storm mode". lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan S June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 I wasnt really debating whether LED is worth it or not. I'm in the LED bandwagon all the way... the question was whether the nice fancy fixture can justify its cost... would an $1100 ati powermodule justify the cost? would the old $2000 solaris led fixture justify the cost? would a $775 vortech mp60 justify the cost? how about a $2000 bubble king 300 skimmer? you get what you pay for... especially in this hobby... and thus, it's not a surprise that the best equipment in the hobby, is also the most expensive (in terms of performance, appearance, capability, craftsmanship, you name it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveoutlaw June 21, 2012 Share June 21, 2012 you get what you pay for... especially in this hobby... and thus, it's not a surprise that the best equipment in the hobby, is also the most expensive (in terms of performance, appearance, capability, craftsmanship, you name it). Except for LEDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlem June 21, 2012 Author Share June 21, 2012 would an $1100 ati powermodule justify the cost? would the old $2000 solaris led fixture justify the cost? would a $775 vortech mp60 justify the cost? how about a $2000 bubble king 300 skimmer? I cant answer for the ati, Solaris, or the bubble king. But I do have the mp60 and I say it's was not the best money spent... It's loud, and kinda bulky, and all the different kind of wave actions are pointless. I use one setting and really never touch it. I would trade it if there is something that can make waves that doesn't require additional apex or controllers. I do admit the external dry side is very nice and it is pretty powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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