Sickness around tank?

[darkcirca]

I've got no idea what's causing this, but it's driving me nuts. Yesterday and Today I had the same issue - sneezing, coughing, runny eyes, complete congestion when I work on the tank. Woke up this morning and was completely fine, went back to the tank, and now I feel like crap again.

 

So let me start explaining:

 

Our reef tank is in the basement - we really don't go down there that often, or for too long of a period. Last weekend I went down and did a water change and was probably down there for an hour with no issues.

 

Yesterday I decided to clean up and spend some time on the tank. It has been somewhat neglected for the past 6-8 months while we were planning our wedding, then we just didn't have a chance to follow up. Scrapped the glass, moved around a few corals, then started zapping some aiptasia. I flipped two rocks over with brown polyps, and pulled out some misc. ones that were on the sand bed. I was down there for about an hour, then headed up stairs, washed my hands and within about 10 minutes I felt like a train wreck. My nose was running, I was sneezing constantly, my heart started racing, and I felt miserable. I went to bed about an hour later and woke up a few times during the night to sneeze. This morning I woke up and was perfectly fine...

 

Today we picked up a few snails and peppermint shrimp to add into the tank. I'm hoping some of these peps will help out with some of that aiptasia. We get home and both go downstairs to work on the tank. Start acclimating the fish and cleaning things. Pulled out both powerheads and scrubbed them (plus broke one...), then decided I was going to just remove the rocks with the polyp colony. I pulled both of them out and put them in a bucket, as well as any remaining pieces on the ground. Moved a few more corals around and finally got around to setting up our PH probe. I think we were downstairs for about 2 hours.

 

Now both my husband and I are experiencing the same sneezing and runny noses. Our heads have pressure, and I'm coughing (haven't noticed him doing this yet). No racing heart, or anything else, just feels like the full blown flu. We both started sneezing after about an hour of being in the basement.

 

Our basement is actually above ground, walk out basement - it's a townhouse. The fish tank is on a tile floor. I noticed some water coming out from under the tank stand, but I'm guessing that's what we knocked around and it collected there. I've got a towel down there to suck up some, and put a fan pointing to the bottom for it to pull out hopefully.

 

Any thoughts on what could cause this?

 

One thing that came to my mind is mold, but I don't see any down there, unless it's actually under the wood stand. The drywall behind has some salt creep, but that's it. We have an acrylic sheet to stop it from going out now (which fell down at one point, causing the creep on the wall). I walked around the basement and saw nothing.

 

My husband didn't handle any of the corals or anything in the tank. He just setup the PH probe (so his hands barely touched the water, and only in the sump). I did all the manual work on the tank, so I'm not sure if something in the tank would have caused us both to have it? The polyps sat out of the tank in a bucket for about 45mins before I stuck them out back to die off.

[steveoutlaw]

You mentioned brown polyps? I had a little run in with those. Read this article and see if they look like these. See here:

 

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/04/05/world%E2%80%99s-2nd-deadliest-poison-in-an-aquarium-store-near-you/

 

They are nasty so watch out.

Edited January 8, 2012 by steveoutlaw

[surf&turf]

Could be a palytoxin, could be the weather. My head has been messed up since the warm up Thursday.

[darkcirca]

Could be a palytoxin, could be the weather. My head has been messed up since the warm up Thursday.

 

I would have thought weather, except it only happened when I was in the basement. I was fine all day Friday and all day today, and even went to dog training this morning with no issues.

[darkcirca]

You mentioned brown polyps? I had a little run in with those. Read this article and see if they look like these. See here:

 

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/04/05/world%E2%80%99s-2nd-deadliest-poison-in-an-aquarium-store-near-you/

 

They are nasty so watch out.

 

I believe they look like those. They stretch out if you flip the rock over to reach around the rock as well.

 

I was thinking that. I was finally sick of them, and decided to just part with them. Can palytoxins go airborne at all? I'm not sure how else my husband would have the same issues, but then again, anything is possible.

 

Thankfully both dogs are acting normal so far. They were in and out of the basement while we are working, but we always tell them to get back and not touch anything.

 

The rocks are outside on my patio under the deck now.

Edited January 8, 2012 by darkcirca

[Cliff Puckstable]

You mentioned brown polyps? I had a little run in with those. Read this article and see if they look like these. See here:

 

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/04/05/world%E2%80%99s-2nd-deadliest-poison-in-an-aquarium-store-near-you/

 

They are nasty so watch out.

 

 

This article scared me. Glad you are okay. I remember reading a while back, someone getting Necrotizing fasciitis(skin eating bateria) from messing with an aquarium. It is rare but, we have to be careful. Some people are ignorant to these things, especially noobs like myself. Thank you for sharing this.

[treesprite]

I am wondering if those things I got from Christina's tank are the same type. They look a bit on the greenish side, not purely a brown color. I don't have them on any rocks, they are on a water output and on the wall.

[Jan]

I got sick after a fragfest 2 years ago. Someone donated a huge colony of palythoas. Doug fragged it and as he fragged they went into a tank. I took them out of the tank, rinsed them and handed them out. the next day I felt as thought I had a mega flu. It was terrible. I could not move.

 

Neurotoxins enter the body through absorption (the skin), inhalation (lungs), Injection (puncture wound) and ingestion. I'm wondering how big your paly colony is. How much water is it in? What is the filtration like? In an enclosed system what they secret may be cummulative. Evaporation of the water may be something else to consider. Whatever is in the tank water evaporates into the air that you inhale. Inhalation is a quick route for neurotoxins. Quicker than intact skin. I hope you feel better soon.

[darkcirca]

I got sick after a fragfest 2 years ago. Someone donated a huge colony of palythoas. Doug fragged it and as he fragged they went into a tank. I took them out of the tank, rinsed them and handed them out. the next day I felt as thought I had a mega flu. It was terrible. I could not move.

 

Neurotoxins enter the body through absorption (the skin), inhalation (lungs), Injection (puncture wound) and ingestion. I'm wondering how big your paly colony is. How much water is it in? What is the filtration like? In an enclosed system what they secret may be cummulative. Evaporation of the water may be something else to consider. Whatever is in the tank water evaporates into the air that you inhale. Inhalation is a quick route for neurotoxins. Quicker than intact skin. I hope you feel better soon.

 

Here's a little info to your questions:

 

My colony was on 2 rocks, maybe about 10"x10" total? It was kinda spread out oddly. It hitch hiked in years ago and I finally decided I wanted it gone. I had kalked them in the past to shrink the colony and never had any issues.

 

We have a 90 gallon with 20 gallon sump, probably over 100lbs of live rock. We run a skimmer and phosban reactor (which we just reintroduced last weekend), and that's it. I haven't ran carbon in who knows how long - I'm debating if I want to throw a bag in the sump by the pump, to at least use it.

 

I've got a small cut on my hand, so I'm assuming that's my culprit. My husband feels worse than I do though. He's miserable, and seems like he is the same as I was last night. His head is killing him and he just has pain in his face now. Of course the congestion/sneezing is still going on. He said his mouth tastes funny (which I had last night).

 

Hopefully it's quick for him. I've got some pressure in the head, but nothing that bad, and congestion now. No racing heart or anything else. I'm hoping his is gone by tomorrow morning, which for me, when I woke up I was fine.

 

I did pull the rocks out and leave them in a bucket in the house for a bit, sitting near him. Maybe something came out of that, I have no idea. He never even touched them..

[Cliff Puckstable]

I would consider visiting the ER. Please do not gamble with your health.

[unninair]

Have you checked your basement for RADON? It is present even in above ground basements.

[Jan]

That funny taste in his mouth concerns me. Is it metalic? I have a background in teaching Pre hospital emergency care. I'd take a trip to the ER. It could be a simple sinus infection or ?? This is an area of Environmental Emergencies that not too many are familiar with. Make sure you tell them that you handled palythoas and you were exposed to palytoxin.

 

Open this print it and take it with you http://www.jem-journal.com/article/S0736-4679(09)00335-7/abstract

If you do decide to go to an ER try to go to one that is trauma center. Trauma centers are well versed in all types of emergencies and have specialist on call 24/7. I think it best to be safe. I hope you feel better soon.

 

Whatever you do do not try to boil the rock with the palys.

 

Good luck.

 

Here's a little info to your questions:

 

My colony was on 2 rocks, maybe about 10"x10" total? It was kinda spread out oddly. It hitch hiked in years ago and I finally decided I wanted it gone. I had kalked them in the past to shrink the colony and never had any issues.

 

We have a 90 gallon with 20 gallon sump, probably over 100lbs of live rock. We run a skimmer and phosban reactor (which we just reintroduced last weekend), and that's it. I haven't ran carbon in who knows how long - I'm debating if I want to throw a bag in the sump by the pump, to at least use it.

 

I've got a small cut on my hand, so I'm assuming that's my culprit. My husband feels worse than I do though. He's miserable, and seems like he is the same as I was last night. His head is killing him and he just has pain in his face now. Of course the congestion/sneezing is still going on. He said his mouth tastes funny (which I had last night).

 

Hopefully it's quick for him. I've got some pressure in the head, but nothing that bad, and congestion now. No racing heart or anything else. I'm hoping his is gone by tomorrow morning, which for me, when I woke up I was fine.

 

I did pull the rocks out and leave them in a bucket in the house for a bit, sitting near him. Maybe something came out of that, I have no idea. He never even touched them..

Edited January 8, 2012 by Jan

[wvreef]

Wow I did not know this about zoas....here is a picture of some that I just got and they look like the ones in the picture in the article....can someone confirm if they r....they are in the lower left corner of the orange zoas...

Edited January 8, 2012 by wvreef

[smallreef]

This is a good reason to wear gloves while working on your tanks...I always have because im allergic now to about eveything man made, so I don't even take a chane with zoas and corals and fish. I agree with the possibility of toxins and if you touched your husband before washing your hands that could have done it. Everyone has different sensitivities to things and chemicals that could kill me don't affect my husband at all, so its easy for someone to crosscontaminate without knowing it.

[jaddc]

Hey everyone. I'm not a medical doctor but I am a scientist that works with various toxins. Palytoxins are very dangerous. That said, I am hesitant to blame palytoxins for your symptoms. Palytoxins are released when the zoanthids are stressed. Usually this is by fragging or cooking -- the tissue of the coral needs to be damaged. It is not probable that you would be poisoned by simply working with the tank in a routine fashion. Palytoxin impairs the nervous system. So you'd have GI symptoms if you inject it (the usual like nausea, diarrhea). You'd also have muscle spasms, slower heart rate, lethargy if it gets to your blood. If you breath it in, you'd feel like your lungs were tightening. If it hits your eyes, you will have conjunctivitis.

So what happened to you guys? My guess is that you are having an allergic response to something in that environment. You'd have to be systematic to find out what it is. For example, if you spend 2 hours in the basement, but don't work on the tank, will you have the same reaction? What if you work on the tank but don't put your hands in the water? etc. etc.

There is no treatment for palytoxin. Medical attention is required when poisoning is so severe that the patient is in respiratory distress. In that case, the trauma team will intubate and administer respiratory support until your body metabolizes and ejects the toxin.

As for safety -- assume all Zoanthid/Paly polyps contain palytoxin. When I frag my polyps I wear latex gloves and eye protection.

But also corals use a lot of biochemical warfare. You may sensitive to something growing in your tank. But that would be tough to figure out.

In the meantime, if Benadryl lessens your symptoms, then it is not palytoxin poisoning. Benadryl will not do anything for toxins/poisons -- different medical phenomena.

This is just my opinion.

[Vadim]

mold?

[smallreef]

Like jeff had said, it may be hard, but you may have to start eliminating things one by one in order to figure out what it is...

I found out I have sensitivities to paint, dust from formaldehyde carpet..... if you haven't been down there as much as before does the basement have a seperate heating/cooling maybe just need to change a filter,,,or as the previous person said mold..or just lack of airflow?

[davelin315]

All zoanthids and palythoas have palytoxin as far as I know. There was a recent article describing them as having 200x the potency of other neurotoxins I think. The National Zoo Invertebrate Exhibit had to pull theirs based on the newest research so I think they might be zoa free.

 

I asked Tom Land to chime in as he has been hit several times with palytoxin and may be able to share his experience for you to compare with. Steve's was based on a more "overt" action while I think Tom's was more similar to what you went through.

[Origami]

I flipped two rocks over with brown polyps, and pulled out some misc. ones that were on the sand bed. I was down there for about an hour, then headed up stairs, washed my hands and within about 10 minutes I felt like a train wreck. My nose was running, I was sneezing constantly, my heart started racing, and I felt miserable. I went to bed about an hour later and woke up a few times during the night to sneeze. This morning I woke up and was perfectly fine...

 

...then decided I was going to just remove the rocks with the polyp colony. I pulled both of them out and put them in a bucket, as well as any remaining pieces on the ground. Moved a few more corals around and finally got around to setting up our PH probe. I think we were downstairs for about 2 hours.

 

Now both my husband and I are experiencing the same sneezing and runny noses. Our heads have pressure, and I'm coughing (haven't noticed him doing this yet). No racing heart, or anything else, just feels like the full blown flu. We both started sneezing after about an hour of being in the basement.

 

... The polyps sat out of the tank in a bucket for about 45mins before I stuck them out back to die off.

 

I'm inclined to believe you've suffered the effects of palytoxin from brown zoas, affectionately known here as "Outlaw Palys" based upon Steve's first documented run in with them. I've suffered their effects three separate times. The first was nearly coincident with Jan's exposure. We'd both been handling the brown palythoas in our tanks similarly, and came down with extreme flu-like symptoms that lasted about 8-12 hours. In my case, full-blown symptoms began to appear about 2 to 2-1/2 hours after exposure, but you could begin to feel it coming on in about 90 minutes. In my case, I felt extremely cold, had a mild fever and suffered quaking shivers. My body felt weak and I refused to get out from under the covers of my bed because I felt so darned cold. My heart was racing.

 

The first time, I'd pulled the rocks from the tank, and scrubbed them under running warm water. I was unfamiliar at the time of Steve's experience. I had gloves, but I was not wearing anything to protect me from breathing anything that might be coming off in the water vapor from the sink. Later, matching symptoms and activities with Jan, and with Steve's post about his experience, the common element was handling these brown palys.

 

A few months later, I handled them with more respect, keeping them immersed in colt-to-room-temperature fresh water for hours, and scrubbing them there. I was gloved up again but was not wearing anything to protect my breathing. Within a couple of hours, my heart was racing and I had the shakes. It was not as bad as the time before, but it was very unpleasant. Symptoms declined and passed over about 6-8 hours. I very nearly called 911 and probably should have. This cemented my belief that the palys were responsible for the symptoms.

 

The third time, exposure was much less. I can't remember exactly how I was handling them, but the symptoms were much less pronounced and passed within 2 hours.

 

The last time I dealt with them was when moving my tank from Ashburn to our current home. I was determined to eradicate the buggers and took a lot of precaution to protect myself this time. I wore shoulder length gloves, safety goggles, and a respirator with cartridges designed to filter out pesticides. I cleaned a lot of rock, rinsing them in water that I treated as toxic waste. I kept the family well away from where I was working. Some rock was so badly infested that I just left them in a closed container to dry out and die. This time, I suffered no ill effects.

 

So, if I were to guess, you've suffered exposure to palytoxin from the brown palythoa zoas.

 

I believe that one of the other symptoms of exposure is a drop in blood pressure, though I don't recall having the presence of mind or the inclination to get up and get my blood pressure meter.

 

Some of the symptoms may, if I recall, be alleviated with oxygen. That's why a hospital is probably a good place to be when you're suffering the effects of exposure.

 

Be careful with those things. They're known to be here in the DC area and those of us that have suffered their effects react almost viscerally to get them and keep them out of our tanks. We also treat handling them with a lot of respect because they can hurt you.

[zygote2k]

the other thing that you can get from your reef tank is ciguarotoxin poisoning. be sure to thoroughly clean all cuts that occur in the tank. reef tanks are full of bacterias, viruses, and pathogens.

[jaddc]

Seriously -- if it was Palytoxin, I have some friends who would be *very* interested in your case study. It would be a rare case study and would advance our scientific knowledge.

 

Often times there is little difference between an allergic (or pathogen) immune response (e.g. to mold, bacteria) and a neurotoxin. It does make good sense to take an antihistamine as soon as symptoms arise when you work on the tank. If the antihistamine does not work, or your symptoms get worse, then there is probably a good chance that you were hit with a neurotoxin.

 

There is no effective treatment or cure for any of the marine toxins. All medical staff can do is administer life support until your body naturally excretes the toxins. Practically, what that means is that you would simply wait in the ER waiting room until you felt better or collapsed.

 

What do people think about the idea of aerosolized DOC's coming from the protein skimmer or other areas of agitation? I think those would be prime suspects for allergies.

Edited January 8, 2012 by jaddc

[darkcirca]

I wanted to thank all of you for the information. My husband started feeling a little better last night and had a snack, then we went to bed. We figured since we weren't having any issues breathing, we'd just try to 'sleep it off'. I really appreciate all the insight on this. We really do want to figure out what it is, or if there could be mold down there - I see no where it would be, besides under the tank stand itself.

 

While we don't feel 100% this morning, it's a huge improvement. I woke up with a major migraine, but that's common for me - took some meds, went back to bed for another hour and it's finally breaking.

 

We've never spent much time in the basement since we moved here 2 years ago (besides when we renovated it, before bringing the tank over). Our tank didn't come over until almost 6 months after we moved in. The most I've spent down there is probably about 2 hours, to feed/clean lizard cages. I've never had issues during that time. We'd probably spend more time down there if it were larger.

 

The basement heat/ac is the same as the middle floor (top floor has it's own), and we spend a great deal of time in the middle floor, so I'm hesitant to think it is there. I do think it was related to working on the tank, as I know we spend time in the garage (attached to the basement) without issues, with the door closed to the outside.

 

Both dogs are doing fine as well. They were in and out during the time we were down there. We do not allow the dogs downstairs without one of us present (baby gate blocking the door into the main basement), but we allowed them down yesterday.

 

Hopefully whatever happened, it doesn't happen again. The only thing I did these past 2 days is mess with those brown polyps - which I haven't done for a long time. A few years ago I messed with the tank and ended up with a numb arm - I believe I was messing with the same polyps then, or another zoa.

 

I went down this morning and opened the sliding glass door a few inches to allow some fresh air in (and moved the bucket with the rocks away from the door), and put a bag of carbon in the tank. Our fish look fine, a few corals have bleach spots, but that could have been from leftover kalk which I put it on a few of the stubborn aiptasia.

 

Definitely hesitant to even spend time around the tank now. I was going to do a water change today... but kinda thinking I will put that off for another week.

 

We both took benadryl after we were done, but I didn't notice any improvement after taking it...

Edited January 8, 2012 by darkcirca

[Jan]

Glad you're feeling better. One thing that I've learned and seen is that everything is not text book exact in "medical" science. Signs& Symptoms are guidelines. Some are always there and some may not. More times than not there are key symptoms. How boring it would be if everyone and every illness presented the same way. But when in doubt, when you're feeling ill and concerned, see a doctor. It's always better to err in the side of caution in situations like these.

 

Take care and please wear gloves when you have open wounds on your hands. War gloves when fragging. If you felt sick after handling corals in your tank, next time wear gloves. You could be more sensative than most. Never boil any corals.

[jaddc]

That Benadryl did not work is a big clue. So its not an allergy (unless Benadryl does not normally work for you guys). While I'm not convinced its palytoxin, you could have been hit with a bacterial toxin or had an acute immune response to a pathogen... like Vibrio. You mentioned lizards? They can harbor a lot of bad bugs.

 

I completely agree with Jan -- you guys have a sensitivity to something. Most of us can dive into our tanks without any trouble. Others have been sent to the ER. Fortunately, toxins aren't a mysterious vapor and we know how to be safe. Wear gloves all the time. Wear eye protection all the time. Always make sure you have adequate ventilation when working in the basement. Immediately wash your hands and face if you get splashed with copious amount of water. You may want to consider wearing old clothing that you can immediately take off and wash when you work on the tank.

 

These are the precautions I and my colleagues take to make sure we don't poison ourselves in our laboratory work.

 

Again, if anyone is struggling for breath or the heart is beating erratically, call 911. Don't drive. Call 911.

 

Stay safe.

[Origami]

Fortunately, toxins aren't a mysterious vapor and we know how to be safe. Wear gloves all the time. Wear eye protection all the time.

Good advice. However, there are situations where a respirator is not a bad idea. Under the right conditions, these organics can be carried into the air, whether it is carried with steam and absorbed by mucous membranes, transdermally, or through an open wound. Please, if you haven't already, read the paper that cites Steve Outlaw's experience, and the subsequent work that was done to identify a palythoa in the area that produces a very powerful palytoxin. Also, familiarize yourself with how these look, because they are here and they can be very dangerous.

 

This link was already posted but I'll post it again:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/04/05/world%E2%80%99s-2nd-deadliest-poison-in-an-aquarium-store-near-you/

 

This is the paper. This abstract references its presence in our area:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0018235

 

Jaddc, can you get this paper? I'd be interested in reading it:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004101010900292X