Are all Kalkwasser the same?

[jnguyen4007]

I have been told that kalwasser is nothing more than calcium chloride and heard from others that not all are the same because of other minerals and such that are beneficial to corals are also added. Are there that much of a difference? Which brand do you guys recommend and why?

[reefmontalvo]

Brightwell's Kalk+2.

 

It was my first kalk I used, but I have had great results. I also tried kent kalk, but was not as impressed just because it was a few dollars cheaper. The kalk+2 has more additives in it then the regular Kent kalk. I don

[jnguyen4007]

Brightwell's Kalk+2.

 

It was my first kalk I used, but I have had great results. I also tried kent kalk, but was not as impressed just because it was a few dollars cheaper. The kalk+2 has more additives in it then the regular Kent kalk. I don

[flowerseller]

KALKWASSER is not calcium chloride, it's calcium hydroxide.

A difference is it gives ALK, Ca, and Mg support.

Calcium chloride can work in the opposite direction if not supplimented with an ALK building compound, hence the term "2 part".

[dschflier]

To answer your question not all Calcium hydroxide (Kalkwasser, when mixed with water)is the same. Not all Calcium chloride,Sodium Bicarbonate or Magnesium is the same either. The purity is very important. I imagine Brightwell uses pure products, but I have not read the label or any spec sheets. I am sure of Reef Choice Kalkwasser because it meets or exceeds Food Chemical Codex specifications for purity. I am aware some companies sell calcium hydroxide which is of lower then food grade. The lower grades tend to cost less but in a reef aquarium can create problems. This link should be informative. Randy Holmes Farley about Kalkwasser

Edited July 29, 2009 by dschflier

[reefmontalvo]

KALKWASSER is not calcium chloride, it's calcium hydroxide.

A difference is it gives ALK, Ca, and Mg support.

Calcium chloride can work in the opposite direction if not supplimented with an ALK building compound, hence the term "2 part".

 

 

?????

 

I was just commenting on the product I use versus the other product I had used. I never thought to look at the label and see which form of calcium I was using.

[jnguyen4007]

KALKWASSER is not calcium chloride, it's calcium hydroxide.

A difference is it gives ALK, Ca, and Mg support.

Calcium chloride can work in the opposite direction if not supplimented with an ALK building compound, hence the term "2 part".

 

 

Thanks for the correction. I looked at the container of Kalwasser last night and saw my mistake.

[johnnybv]

In my experience I have found not all to be the same, especially the cheap pickling lime stuff.

When I tried the pickling lime My ph would never come above 8.0, and there was A LOT of undisolved grey gunk in my reactor after a few weeks, telling me there is a purity problem and there is a lot of unusable stuff that you paid for that does not go into solution.

 

I have been pretty happy with the ESV Kalk, keeps my ph about 8.0 - 8.2 and it pretty much disolves away to just about nothing.

 

I have also been using the Brightwell Kalk +2 for about 3 weeks now, no noticable difference in the tank yet, but it appears to be holding ph and disolving well.

 

My moral of the story, use the stuff that is designed for your tank, not pickling stuff.

 

John

[flowerseller]

?????

 

I was just commenting on the product I use versus the other product I had used. I never thought to look at the label and see which form of calcium I was using.

 

I was responding to the fact that it was incorrectly thought it was calcium chloride, a dangerous assumption.

 

As far as which is better,

I think most are just fine and it all depends mostly on how you inturpret the "label" or who's "selling" it to you which what they're saying it does.

My only exception to that would be someone who "cheaps out" (IMO) by using Mrs. Wiggleys or the other "food grade pickling" limes sold at the grocery store.

A 50#bag of the codex lime can be had on a GB for less ($20-25) and (again IMO) is far better.

 

I've used a commercial "codex" form for the last 6 years and find it to be a very good substitute for the reagent grade 98.5% pure I used to use.

I believe Dave is selling it, the codex variety, or something similar that he has conviently repackaged for the aquarist.

He gave me a container to try and it seems to be fine or no difference to what I've been using.

[DJBoy98]

What's wrong with the grocery pickling limes? I have used Ball and Mrs Wage (currently) and see no ill effects yet. My PH stays from 8.1 to 8.3

with the CA reactor running on a 16 hr schedule.

[reefmontalvo]

I was responding to the fact that it was incorrectly thought it was calcium chloride, a dangerous assumption.

 

As far as which is better,

I think most are just fine and it all depends mostly on how you inturpret the "label" or who's "selling" it to you which what they're saying it does.

My only exception to that would be someone who "cheaps out" (IMO) by using Mrs. Wiggleys or the other "food grade pickling" limes sold at the grocery store.

A 50#bag of the codex lime can be had on a GB for less ($20-25) and (again IMO) is far better.

 

I've used a commercial "codex" form for the last 6 years and find it to be a very good substitute for the reagent grade 98.5% pure I used to use.

I believe Dave is selling it, the codex variety, or something similar that he has conviently repackaged for the aquarist.

He gave me a container to try and it seems to be fine or no difference to what I've been using.

 

I started my very first kalk experience with Kalk+2 and used it for about 8 months, before this I was using B-Ionic which was still a good product but I wanted to get away from dosing two parts on a weekly or daily basis. I did noticed great strides in my overall tank progress in all forms of growth once I switched to using kalkwasser. But then I ran out and went cheap with the Kent kalk since I was told there both one and the same, I feel me buying the cheaper kalk powder was not a mistake but an emergency back up in case the stores run out I can at least dose something rather than nothing. I recently in the last two weeks switched over back to Kalk+2 and have noticed certain corals starting to show polyp extensions just like in the past. So IMO I feel the Kalk+2 is far superior.

[reefmontalvo]

What's wrong with the grocery pickling limes? I have used Ball and Mrs Wage (currently) and see no ill effects yet. My PH stays from 8.1 to 8.3

with the CA reactor running on a 16 hr schedule.

 

How long have you been using the picking lime?

[flowerseller]

I started my very first kalk experience with Kalk+2 and used it for about 8 months, before this I was using B-Ionic which was still a good product but I wanted to get away from dosing two parts on a weekly or daily basis. I did noticed great strides in my overall tank progress in all forms of growth once I switched to using kalkwasser. But then I ran out and went cheap with the Kent kalk since I was told there both one and the same, I feel me buying the cheaper kalk powder was not a mistake but an emergency back up in case the stores run out I can at least dose something rather than nothing. I recently in the last two weeks switched over back to Kalk+2 and have noticed certain corals starting to show polyp extensions just like in the past. So IMO I feel the Kalk+2 is far superior.

 

That's what is good info here.

Using one product, changing to another, and then switching back to a product and noticing a difference.

 

When I started using Kalk 18-20 years ago, I talked with John Tullock and we discussed the differences in what we where using and why neither did not like the pickling limes frm the grocery store. Yes, it's food grade calcium hydroxide but is does not mix up as well as the reagent grade (costly but pure) or even the codex I use now and like fine.

[six-line]

I'm currently using the Kalk that came with my Aquamedic Stirer but I have the Kalk from bulk reef supply to use next, anyone use this kind before? Has anyone seen the Kalk turn like a honey brown color? Should I replace it? I've never seen it turn color before. Thanks.

[reefmontalvo]

I'm currently using the Kalk that came with my Aquamedic Stirer but I have the Kalk from bulk reef supply to use next, anyone use this kind before? Has anyone seen the Kalk turn like a honey brown color? Should I replace it? I've never seen it turn color before. Thanks.

 

That sounds like a possible problem. I would call the company and find out if that is part of the powders properties.

[jnguyen4007]

I'm currently using the Kalk that came with my Aquamedic Stirer but I have the Kalk from bulk reef supply to use next, anyone use this kind before? Has anyone seen the Kalk turn like a honey brown color? Should I replace it? I've never seen it turn color before. Thanks.

 

I've never seen it turn brown before. You should stop using it until you know for sure what's in it. As for Kalwasser from Bulks Reef. Not sure how good it is in comparison to Brightwell and such, but it seems to work fine for me for now anyway.

[chucelli]

I don't think there is any problem with using pickling lime, as impurities settle out by nature when mixing kalk. However, there are definitely different grades of Kalk. Better formulations waste less in that it dissolves more completely, leaving less sediment, which I would assume to contain impurities. IME, Kent Kalk does not dissolve very well, while Brightwell's Kalk+2 seems to dissolve extremely well, but I doubt that the +2 mag and strontium actually get into the tank, as calcium hydroxide will probably cause them to precipitate out of solution.

[flowerseller]

but I doubt that the +2 mag and strontium actually get into the tank, as calcium hydroxide will probably cause them to precipitate out of solution.

 

possibly very well said.

I have found when I'm using a bunch of Kalk, I have troublemaintaining Mg.

[Origami]

Brightwell's Kalk+2 seems to dissolve extremely well, but I doubt that the +2 mag and strontium actually get into the tank, as calcium hydroxide will probably cause them to precipitate out of solution.

 

The magnesium will likely precipitate out and wind up on the bottom of the stirrer, but the strontium may make it. However, it's not really clear that, with regular water changes, if dosing strontium is necessary or even advised.

 

See RHF's take on it in this single post:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...57#post12047157

[reefmontalvo]

After much thought I went ot the shelf and grab both containers, both Kent Marine and Brightwell are both Calcium Hydroxide. But the Brightwell contains strontium and Mag in ionic forms. Which makes me think there in a polar form which allows them the be absorbed better in to the actual polyps of the corals and not parcipitate on the sides of the tank or in the sump. I'm just a solid believer in the Brightwell stuff until something else comes along .

[Origami]

After much thought I went ot the shelf and grab both containers, both Kent Marine and Brightwell are both Calcium Hydroxide. But the Brightwell contains strontium and Mag in ionic forms. Which makes me think there in a polar form which allows them the be absorbed better in to the actual polyps of the corals and not parcipitate on the sides of the tank or in the sump. I'm just a solid believer in the Brightwell stuff until something else comes along .

 

 

"ionic forms" only means that the magnesium is in a salt or other form that has dissociated in aqueous solution to yield an Mg++ ion. It does not mean it's more bio-available or active. Unfortunately, the Mg++ ion reacts with two hydroxyl groups (OH-) to form Mg(OH)2 or magnesium hydroxide. In the high pH environment of kalkwasser (pH 13-14), magnesium hydroxide forms an insoluble precipitate. The thinking is that this precipitate settles to the bottom of your kalk stirrer (to be discarded later) along with all the other junk that settles out of kalkwasser.

 

Try adding some kalkwasser effluent directly to your tank and you'll observe that a hazy cloud forms, dissipates, and goes away. What you're seeing is magnesium hydroxide precipate being formed in the locally high pH environment. That's the cloudiness. As the cloud dissipates, the local pH environment returns to your tank pH and the magnesium hydroxide disappears (at pH < 10). Since the pH of Kalkwasser is always above 10, though, the magnesium hydroxide precipitate never returns to solution. (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php#5)

 

That, by the way, is actually one of the benefits of kalkwasser - it precipates out heavy metals, phosphates, and other impurities before it makes it to your tank. It's sort of a chemical scrubber in that way.

 

By the way, when I dissolve mag flake (MgCl2) in water, I have a solution with an ionic form of magnesium.

 

I'm less sure if strontium shares the same fate as the magnesium, however.

 

It might be worthwhile to take some clear Kalk+2 effluent (the kind of stuff that comes out of a reactor), dilute it with some RO/DI and measure the magnesium content to see whether or not it provides a significant source of magnesium.

 

I would add, if magnesium didn't precipitate out in the kalk stirrer, I could achieve the same effect as Brightwell Kalk+2 by adding some magnesium chloride (and maybe some strontium chloride) to my top-off water that I pump through my kalk stirrer. Unfortunately, that won't work for the reasons described.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Origami2547

[reefmontalvo]

"ionic forms" only means that the magnesium is in a salt or other form that has dissociated in aqueous solution to yield an Mg++ ion. It does not mean it's more bio-available or active. Unfortunately, the Mg++ ion reacts with two hydroxyl groups (OH-) to form Mg(OH)2 or magnesium hydroxide. In the high pH environment of kalkwasser (pH 13-14), magnesium hydroxide forms an insoluble precipitate. The thinking is that this precipitate settles to the bottom of your kalk stirrer (to be discarded later) along with all the other junk that settles out of kalkwasser.

 

Try adding some kalkwasser effluent directly to your tank and you'll observe that a hazy cloud forms, dissipates, and goes away. What you're seeing is magnesium hydroxide precipate being formed in the locally high pH environment. That's the cloudiness. As the cloud dissipates, the local pH environment returns to your tank pH and the magnesium hydroxide disappears (at pH < 10). Since the pH of Kalkwasser is always above 10, though, the magnesium hydroxide precipitate never returns to solution. (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php#5)

 

That, by the way, is actually one of the benefits of kalkwasser - it precipates out heavy metals, phosphates, and other impurities before it makes it to your tank. It's sort of a chemical scrubber in that way.

 

By the way, when I dissolve mag flake (MgCl2) in water, I have a solution with an ionic form of magnesium.

 

I'm less sure if strontium shares the same fate as the magnesium, however.

 

It might be worthwhile to take some clear Kalk+2 effluent (the kind of stuff that comes out of a reactor), dilute it with some RO/DI and measure the magnesium content to see whether or not it provides a significant source of magnesium.

 

I would add, if magnesium didn't precipitate out in the kalk stirrer, I could achieve the same effect as Brightwell Kalk+2 by adding some magnesium chloride (and maybe some strontium chloride) to my top-off water that I pump through my kalk stirrer. Unfortunately, that won't work for the reasons described.

 

Only you Tom !!!!

 

I was under the assumption since the mag was ionic it was easier for the coral cell wall the absorb along with the strontium. THat is why I thought it was more of a polar attraction verses non-polar attraction.

 

Well do you think Im crazy for adding a carbon reactor to the tank? I am aiming for clarity in the water as to allow more light penetration to the bottom of the tank. BUt this is a disscusion for another forum.

[Origami]

Well do you think Im crazy for adding a carbon reactor to the tank? I am aiming for clarity in the water as to allow more light penetration to the bottom of the tank. BUt this is a disscusion for another forum.

 

 

Nope. I do it myself for the same reasons. :biggrin:

 

Gotta run. I always enjoy talking with you Chris, but I'm on business travel in Valley Forge and haven't eaten all day. I gotta get out of here!

Edited July 30, 2009 by Origami2547

[F&Fmgr]

"ionic forms" only means that the magnesium is in a salt or other form that has dissociated in aqueous solution to yield an Mg++ ion. It does not mean it's more bio-available or active. Unfortunately, the Mg++ ion reacts with two hydroxyl groups (OH-) to form Mg(OH)2 or magnesium hydroxide. In the high pH environment of kalkwasser (pH 13-14), magnesium hydroxide forms an insoluble precipitate. The thinking is that this precipitate settles to the bottom of your kalk stirrer (to be discarded later) along with all the other junk that settles out of kalkwasser.

 

Try adding some kalkwasser effluent directly to your tank and you'll observe that a hazy cloud forms, dissipates, and goes away. What you're seeing is magnesium hydroxide precipate being formed in the locally high pH environment. That's the cloudiness. As the cloud dissipates, the local pH environment returns to your tank pH and the magnesium hydroxide disappears (at pH < 10). Since the pH of Kalkwasser is always above 10, though, the magnesium hydroxide precipitate never returns to solution. (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php#5)

 

That, by the way, is actually one of the benefits of kalkwasser - it precipates out heavy metals, phosphates, and other impurities before it makes it to your tank. It's sort of a chemical scrubber in that way.

 

By the way, when I dissolve mag flake (MgCl2) in water, I have a solution with an ionic form of magnesium.

 

I'm less sure if strontium shares the same fate as the magnesium, however.

 

It might be worthwhile to take some clear Kalk+2 effluent (the kind of stuff that comes out of a reactor), dilute it with some RO/DI and measure the magnesium content to see whether or not it provides a significant source of magnesium.

 

I would add, if magnesium didn't precipitate out in the kalk stirrer, I could achieve the same effect as Brightwell Kalk+2 by adding some magnesium chloride (and maybe some strontium chloride) to my top-off water that I pump through my kalk stirrer. Unfortunately, that won't work for the reasons described.

 

Ok so i did a little test on my Aqua Medic kalkstirrer with Brightwell Kalk +2 in it. I collected around 3mL of effluent, waited 15 mins for the sediment to settle, then decanted 1mL of the effluent water(not crusty top layer in the sample and no precipitate from the bottom in the sample) added it to my magnesium test ( seachem reef status) and also added the 1mL of zero (0) TDS ro/di water because the test calls for a sample of 2mL. Anyway I ran the test and I got about 1000mg/L of magnesium. I should add that one of the steps in this brand of test kit actually precipitates most if not all of the calcium as to reduce or eliminate calcium interference in the test. So answer me this, how would i get 2000mg/L of magnesium in my effluent if the MAG precipitate in the kalkstirrer and never leaves the chamber b/c you say it is not soluble.

 

Also, just to be sure seachem provides a reference sample to check the accuracy of the reagents and the test is spot on.

 

Sean

[lanman]

Hey!! They didn't tell me I was gonna hafta take chemistry for this hobby!!

 

Plumbing, yes...

 

Carpentry, yes...

 

Animal Husbandry, yes...

 

Electronics, yes...

 

Optical theory, yes...

 

And now I hafta do chemistry, too?!?!?!

 

bob