lanman August 16, 2009 Share August 16, 2009 OMG. I have these growing like crazy in tank and was thinking about plucking them. They look ugly IMO. What is the best way to get rid of them in the rank. I can't remove rock. If you are very diligent - you can zap them with kalk... but you have to hit them every day, and actually try to 'inject' the kalk into the bases. I have cleared several 'patches' ... but then I don't pay any attention for a while, and they come back. if anyone has a GOOD way - I would love to hear it! bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k August 16, 2009 Share August 16, 2009 inject them individually with aptasia x and they'll die. Alternately, if you add chemicals to your tank like calcium, iodine, alkalinity, you could inject those into them and see what kind of effects happen. Maybe they'll change color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman August 16, 2009 Share August 16, 2009 inject them individually with aptasia x and they'll die. Alternately, if you add chemicals to your tank like calcium, iodine, alkalinity, you could inject those into them and see what kind of effects happen. Maybe they'll change color. Mutant Palythoa's!! Maybe vinegar? I like the Iodine idea - I don't often dose it, but might be worth a try. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoinoven2003 August 16, 2009 Share August 16, 2009 Okay, my question is how to get rid of the palys on this rock without killing the corals on the other side (green nepthea, star polyps and two things I don't know the name of). I know I'll have to get the anemones to move first. I really don't want to kill the whole rock or chip off the corals I want, it's a really cool rock except for the palys. I've used a paste of pickling lime and water on some aiptasia which worked well, but kind of 'snowed' down on other stuff too. Was going to try aiptasiaX but it's really pricey at my lfs. Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman August 16, 2009 Share August 16, 2009 Okay, my question is how to get rid of the palys on this rock without killing the corals on the other side (green nepthea, star polyps and two things I don't know the name of). I know I'll have to get the anemones to move first. I really don't want to kill the whole rock or chip off the corals I want, it's a really cool rock except for the palys. I've used a paste of pickling lime and water on some aiptasia which worked well, but kind of 'snowed' down on other stuff too. Was going to try aiptasiaX but it's really pricey at my lfs. Any suggestions? I took a left-over Salifert test syringe - the one with the pointy end on it. I took a sharp blade, and sliced the end to a point - similar to an injection needle. I mix kalk powder and water - and literally inject it into the paly's. With mixed results. It take hard work and patience; but hopefully less work than taking the whole rock out and chipping them off. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vader August 17, 2009 Share August 17, 2009 Ok, this is what I got from the CDC when I inhaled the Palytoxin. For those of you who don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capsfan August 17, 2009 Share August 17, 2009 +1 I've always tried to be safe with them, but it only takes one mistake to take a trip to the ER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 I took a left-over Salifert test syringe - the one with the pointy end on it. I took a sharp blade, and sliced the end to a point - similar to an injection needle. I mix kalk powder and water - and literally inject it into the paly's. With mixed results. It take hard work and patience; but hopefully less work than taking the whole rock out and chipping them off. bob I've tried in the last few days to knock a few out with a direct injection of undiluted muriatic acid (HCl). Just the smallest drop using a hypodermic needle and syringe deep into the tissue. I'm still observing the reaction, but it seems to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoinoven2003 August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 (edited) I've tried in the last few days to knock a few out with a direct injection of undiluted muriatic acid (HCl). Just the smallest drop using a hypodermic needle and syringe deep into the tissue. I'm still observing the reaction, but it seems to work. Sorry to sound so naive, but I thought that was a pool chemical? Is it safe (well, obviously or you wouldn't be using it). Someone like me probably shouldn't even attempt that. I'm trying the pickling lime, but do you know if a bunch of palys die will they send out enough toxin to harm anything else? Or is it best to just do a dozen or so at a time? Thanks for the help! Edited August 18, 2009 by twoinoven2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan August 18, 2009 Author Share August 18, 2009 I was physically ill for about two days after the frag fest. I suspect that it was from bagging all those corals without gloves. I felt as though i had the flu; body aches, chills, etc..it was really bad. My husband considered taking me to the hospital after i told him that i thought it was from handling all the frags. I recovered after 2 days or so but it was horrible. I was a wreck. It could have been worse and I was very stupid for not seeing a doctor and for not wearing gloves. I use long tongs to handle most all of my corals, especially the palys. I have goggles hanging up in the area where I frag. I've experienced swelling in my hands, tingling in my fingers and even pain in the joints in my hands and elbows which are all signs of neurotoxin poisoning when i first started and never once thought that it was the corals. I don't have these symptoms anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capsfan August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 I will say that I have become less and less careful with my zoas and palys. After reading all this, I might actually go back to using gloves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 Sorry to sound so naive, but I thought that was a pool chemical? Is it safe (well, obviously or you wouldn't be using it). Someone like me probably shouldn't even attempt that. I'm trying the pickling lime, but do you know if a bunch of palys die will they send out enough toxin to harm anything else? Or is it best to just do a dozen or so at a time? Thanks for the help! Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid (HCl). It's used for a lot of stuff in industry and is also used for pools, cleaning masonary, etc. It's extremely active (in other words, potent) and needs to be handled with care. It it's commonly available form, it's 10 times more potent than supermarket vinegar. I often use it, diluted 9:1 (or more) with water to clean my pumps or other things that I need cleansed of calcium carbonate build-up. While I'm comfortable using it, I understand why some would not be. That said, upon contact with open water, it dissociates into H+ and Cl- (hydrogen and chlorine ions) on contact. Cl-, as you may know, is the most common ion in sea water - present at 19,000 ppm. The hydrogen ion, in open water would be immediately consumed by the available alkalinity in your tank. So, in small quantities, it's as safe as anything we use (you just have to be more careful about using it, that's all) in terms of what it's made of and what it leaves behind. In one sense, it's actually cleaner than storebought vinegar in that it does not introduce carbon or phosphates (a common 'pollutant' in storebought vinegar) into your tank. In my experiment, I used the smallest amount injected through a sharp hypodermic needle inserted into the body of the zoa polyp. With what I would consider to be way less than a drop, the reactivity of the acid was immediately obvious as was the polyp's dissatisfaction with the treatment. I only did about 8-10 polyps this way as I didn't want to over-do it and have too many polyps reacting, releasing organics and possibly releasing toxins into the water column. In the two days that have passed since I tried this, each of the treated polyps have remained shrunken and closed. I'll continue to watch them to see if they die off or recover, but I suspect that they'll die off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoinoven2003 August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 Thank you so much for the info. I, being a housecleaner took note of the uses for muriatic acid that would benefit me. I put a solution of pickling lime on a bunch of palys yesterday, it looks like snow. It was a section away from other stuff and I'll let you know what happens. And if anyone is interested, I'll post a later picture of the finger progress. It isn't swollen anymore and the scar tissue is forming around the crater, but it went all the way through all layers of skin. It looks like it's going to be a real nasty scar. Ugh. Still pretty sore too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capsfan August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 Thank you so much for the info. I, being a housecleaner took note of the uses for muriatic acid that would benefit me. I put a solution of pickling lime on a bunch of palys yesterday, it looks like snow. It was a section away from other stuff and I'll let you know what happens. And if anyone is interested, I'll post a later picture of the finger progress. It isn't swollen anymore and the scar tissue is forming around the crater, but it went all the way through all layers of skin. It looks like it's going to be a real nasty scar. Ugh. Still pretty sore too. Sounds gross! Hope it gets better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 Thank you so much for the info. I, being a housecleaner took note of the uses for muriatic acid that would benefit me. People use a diluted solution of it to clean concrete sidewalks as well as efflorescense that can show up on some brick and block walls from water leaks (those are some of the uses of it in cleaning masonry). It's very potent stuff, though, and worthy of respect. If you've never used it before and plan to use it, I would suggest reading about it first. Many people do use it, though. Otherwise it wouldn't be sold in gallon jugs at Lowe's and at other hardware stores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bshriver October 21, 2009 Share October 21, 2009 I'll revive this thread base on a personal incident this week. I was cleaning a frag rack with some of the large ugly palythoas growing on it. I was cleaning it under running hot water washing them down the drain. Apparently, some palytoxin became airborn with the steam from the hot water and I inhaled it. I had done this procedure many times before without incident. Here is what happened. 1) Noticed the smell in the air over the sink and a slight soar throat - thought the flu might be setting in or I just inhaled palytoxin - 10:00pm 2) Showered immediately and tried to clear my throat as much as possible. 3) Went to bed with no syptoms other than a slightly soar throat - thought it was a non issue. 4) Woke up at 1:00am with: spasms/shaking, labored breathing, high temp, high pulse rate, mild chest tension. 5) googled palytoxin poisoning and found some inhaling threads like this one. 6) called posion control 7) got an ambulance that put me on O2 - symptoms ceased almost immediately 8) Remained in ER on O2 for 5 hours until vitals and blood oxygen levels stabalized. 9) went home and got rest It does not take much of this stuff to cause a reaction even if you inhale it. I am careful about touching it and washing afterwards all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan October 21, 2009 Author Share October 21, 2009 All toxins enter the bloodstream quickly via inhalation (vapors, eg. steam), absorption (direct contact with the skin), ingestion (swallowing, usually accidental), injection (being stuck), open wound and via the mucosa (eyes, mouth, etc.) I'm glad you're okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman October 21, 2009 Share October 21, 2009 I'm glad someone revives one of these threads every once in a while as a reminder!!! It's so easy to become complacent. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bshriver October 21, 2009 Share October 21, 2009 Yes it is. I have handled these for years without issue and even do e this procedure before. Does anyone know what breaks this toxin down? I had read heat did but I think that is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore October 21, 2009 Share October 21, 2009 Yes it is. I have handled these for years without issue and even do e this procedure before. Does anyone know what breaks this toxin down? I had read heat did but I think that is wrong. Glad you're ok. I think heat would break down the toxin, as it is a protein, but probably more heat and/or for longer than what your palys were exposed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bshriver October 21, 2009 Share October 21, 2009 Wiki says it is not a protien. For what that is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore October 22, 2009 Share October 22, 2009 Interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that (obviously). Also interesting was the blurb on maitotoxin linked from the wiki page, and how it was isolated from C. striatus, the kole tang or Maito, yet it turned out to be made by a dinoflagellate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami October 22, 2009 Share October 22, 2009 I'll revive this thread base on a personal incident this week. I was cleaning a frag rack with some of the large ugly palythoas growing on it. I was cleaning it under running hot water washing them down the drain. Apparently, some palytoxin became airborn with the steam from the hot water and I inhaled it. I had done this procedure many times before without incident. Here is what happened. 1) Noticed the smell in the air over the sink and a slight soar throat - thought the flu might be setting in or I just inhaled palytoxin - 10:00pm 2) Showered immediately and tried to clear my throat as much as possible. 3) Went to bed with no syptoms other than a slightly soar throat - thought it was a non issue. 4) Woke up at 1:00am with: spasms/shaking, labored breathing, high temp, high pulse rate, mild chest tension. 5) googled palytoxin poisoning and found some inhaling threads like this one. 6) called posion control 7) got an ambulance that put me on O2 - symptoms ceased almost immediately 8) Remained in ER on O2 for 5 hours until vitals and blood oxygen levels stabalized. 9) went home and got rest It does not take much of this stuff to cause a reaction even if you inhale it. I am careful about touching it and washing afterwards all of the time. I've had 1-4 happen to me as well. It hits you in just a couple of hours. I was freezing and the shaking (shivering) came in waves. I had no real difficulty with breathing, though. I ran a fever of nearly 104 degrees for 8-10 hours. I thought it was the flu, but recalled (after thinking about this thread) that Jan went through something very similar several months back. Like you, I'd submerged a palythoa-covered rock in some warm, fresh water in the bathroom sink, scrubbing them underwater with a stiff nylon brush. I wanted to kill them with osmotic shock and wanted to keep their toxin in solution by keeping the rock submerged while I worked it. I was gloved up nearly to my shoulders and wore eye protection. Even so, I think I breathed in some vapors off of the warm water and that's what I think got me. Rough ride. Luckily not as rough as yours, bshriver, but certainly attention-getting. I'm glad that you're feeling better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bshriver October 22, 2009 Share October 22, 2009 Interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that (obviously). Also interesting was the blurb on maitotoxin linked from the wiki page, and how it was isolated from C. striatus, the kole tang or Maito, yet it turned out to be made by a dinoflagellate. Yep. BTW, I am not saying that Wiki is right, just that they claim it is not a protein I also read somewhere that they are trying to get palytoxin to bind with something (I forget what) in such a way that it will only attack cancer cells. This stuff may end up saving more lives in the long run than it ever took Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bshriver October 22, 2009 Share October 22, 2009 I've had 1-4 happen to me as well. It hits you in just a couple of hours. I was freezing and the shaking (shivering) came in waves. I had no real difficulty with breathing, though. I ran a fever of nearly 104 degrees for 8-10 hours. I thought it was the flu, but recalled (after thinking about this thread) that Jan went through something very similar several months back. Like you, I'd submerged a palythoa-covered rock in some warm, fresh water in the bathroom sink, scrubbing them underwater with a stiff nylon brush. I wanted to kill them with osmotic shock and wanted to keep their toxin in solution by keeping the rock submerged while I worked it. I was gloved up nearly to my shoulders and wore eye protection. Even so, I think I breathed in some vapors off of the warm water and that's what I think got me. Rough ride. Luckily not as rough as yours, bshriver, but certainly attention-getting. I'm glad that you're feeling better. Sounds like you had a very similar exposure. If I had let it run it course, I would have probably been fine but the symptoms would have lasted longer. The shaking and freezing stopped almost immediately with O2. And a few hours later I was almost fine. I waited an hour before I called the ER as it felt similar to the flu - except the shaking was more extreme and blankets did not stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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