treesprite April 15, 2009 Share April 15, 2009 AmQuel+ is the newest in the line of AmQuel products produced by Kordon. The company claims that it can reduce nitrate at a MINIMUM rate of 13ppm per single dose, and at rates as high as 85% when there is no ammonia or nitrate in the water being dosed, and that it can do it in just 5 minutes. This product is supposed to be completely non-toxic to livestock and to people and to not hurt the livestock even if overdosed. It reduces oxygen but in an average tank it wouldn't be enough to hurt livestock. It is for both fresh and saltwater. I got some last night to test it, expecting it not to work. I have had my DSB offline for a few weeks (it's a 29g tank, supposed to also be fuge but I've had the macros in the sump for a while), because the sand is still leeching out mega nitrate in spite of 2 complete water changes... I have been waiting for the sand to stop leeching. The pre-trial Salifert nitrate test reading was a somewhat medium-dark pink, though not dark-dark. Initially I used just a single dose amount - 5 ml per gallon of water. Within half an hour on Salifert the result went down to medium pink. Nice but not convincing. I then added about 4 times the regualr dose amount to speed things up (no livestock to worry about). I waited about an hour then tested the water again. This time I also tested with Red Sea. Salifert now reads pale pink. Red Sea reads light green which is practically zero. At the normal dosage, I imagine it would have taken 5 days to get these results in the absence of any nutrient additions. I am now going to wait and see if the sand continues to leech nitrate or if the product eliminated all of it - the manufacturer claims the product gets to all areas of the tank. I am SOLD on AmQuel+ for reducing nitrate. I am going to dose my tanks with it now that I know it works. Happy camper here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k April 15, 2009 Share April 15, 2009 Forrest- LMK what the test results are in a week. I'm currently working on a new maintenance tank that has muy nitrate levels from being locked up in a DSB. I'd like to know if that product really works or if it is just masking the test results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikryd April 15, 2009 Share April 15, 2009 I agree that it may lock it up - but it still needs to be exported via a water change Good stuff though... jmho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnguyen4007 April 15, 2009 Share April 15, 2009 I use amquel plus in my discus tank for the past couple of years. great stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind April 15, 2009 Share April 15, 2009 This issue came up about five years ago and there were several independent tests done that proved it didn't remove the nitrates. It might bind with it to make it less harmful but it does not remove it. Old Article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHUBAKAH April 15, 2009 Share April 15, 2009 This issue came up about five years ago and there were several independent tests done that proved it didn't remove the nitrates. It might bind with it to make it less harmful but it does not remove it. Old Article The End Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite April 16, 2009 Author Share April 16, 2009 (edited) Kordon has changed the webpage since that study was done to include that study in its statements. It mentions that study, and claims there were other non-Kordon studies done which came up with positive results. For some reason the webpage keeps getting hijacked everytime it starts to load, so I'm not posting the link. It's possible that by "remove" Kordon means "remove from accessibility" to livestock by isolation (binding). They don't make any claim that the AmQuel+ breaks down ions to convert the toxins to something else, nor to they make any claim about binding. There's all kinds of toxic stuff bound up in sand beds and deep inside of liverock which does not show up on our test readings because as it is isolated and inaccessible, and is harmless to our livestock even though in the tank. Is that not all that matters, that we keep the toxins away from the livestock? I would like to know where these toxin-bound (if bound not broken down) AmQuel+ particles go in the tank, and what effect carbon use may have on them. 1. If they remain suspended, the protein skimmer should remove them. Given that the study posted claims to have found nitrate ions, I would assume that the particles were floating around, thus would be available for skimming out of the tank. This would be just as good as having to use a skimmer to remove the bacteria produced from carbon dosing when carbon dosing is used for nitrate reduction... a process which, just as using AmQuel+, reduces oxygen levels. 2. If they settle to the bottom I would like to know how to most effectively remove them when doing water changes. The study linked doesn't state from where in teh tank did it extract its samples. 3. If carbon removes them, I would want to change my carbon at an appropriate frequency so there is no leeching. Edited April 16, 2009 by treesprite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikryd April 16, 2009 Share April 16, 2009 It is just like anything else. Why add something when we aren't sure what it is doing. I use it in QT and that is it. I change the water every other day as well. It is more or less a preventative measure. I don't put anything in my display (chemically wise) unless I have a specific reason that can't be solved otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite April 16, 2009 Author Share April 16, 2009 This is the thing. I bought a bottle of vodka a couple months ago thinking I would try dosing it, and haven't yet started. I saw this stuff and decided to give it a try first. I tried using vinegar very briefly a while back at a low dose which was not doing anything - I was impatient but too afraid to keep raising so I stopped. This is what I am thinking. Get some fast nitrate relief using AmQuel+, either 1. use it regularly OR 2. start dosing vodka after this Amquel+ dosing run. I feel so unsure with myself about dosing carbon, probably a reflection of everything I have ever read about it and the general hobby debate about it. The above is for the 65g's system. The clownfish hex tank's CPR skimmer is not good enough for carbon dosing (IMO), so the AmQuel+ seems to be a good option compared to doing nothing. I feed the clownfish a lot of meaty food - I think the 65 is still recovering from them having lived in it, because the liverock keeps leeching nitrate and I only use raw food like once a week in the 65 (for the sake of the corals). If all the nitrate is "removed" (broken down or permanently inaccessible) from the liverock and sand in the 65's system, that would be a tremendous boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikryd April 16, 2009 Share April 16, 2009 imho this is definetely something you might want to reconsider. Without the proper skimmer - dosing like that will just create more nitrate issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite April 16, 2009 Author Share April 16, 2009 imho this is definetely something you might want to reconsider. Without the proper skimmer - dosing like that will just create more nitrate issues... AmQuel+ doesn't call for a skimmer - I would assume if it did it would not be marketed to be used in both fresh and saltwater tanks. I am conjecturing that a skimmer would take suspended particles out of the water in the event that what AmQuel+ is actually doing is binding up nitrate into them. If the nitrate is permanently bound up in particles - as in forever under normal tank conditions - the particles being in the tank should not cause a future nitrate problem. Hopefully people would do regular water changes - I just want to be able to do regular water changes without doing excessive massive water changes. I think I might stir up some of the sand in the offline DSB then test the water again. The DSB is not yet "established" so I won;t be doing any damage (it is was, there would not have been nitrate coming from it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k April 16, 2009 Share April 16, 2009 Sounds like more snake oil. It promises to do one thing, but is only masking test results to make it appear to work. How about a good regimen of weekly water changes, the right amount of food and a healthy portion of macro-algae and/or skimming to reduce the N03? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite April 16, 2009 Author Share April 16, 2009 (edited) Sounds like more snake oil. It promises to do one thing, but is only masking test results to make it appear to work. How about a good regimen of weekly water changes, the right amount of food and a healthy portion of macro-algae and/or skimming to reduce the N03? If the nitrate is being bound to particles that make it no longer available in the water, that being the reason it isn't showing on the test results, then it is not affecting the animals same as if it wasn't there. I wish this was available in a solid form that could go in a filter bag. I'm going to do some more research. The stuff didn't affect the sandbed nitrate, obviously, because the nitrate in the DSB water jumped back up like it does every single time I do a 100% water change. Link to the site seems to be working agian so here it is: http://www.novalek.com/kordon/amquel+/index.htm. Here is a quote from it about the study: There is the claim on an aquarium product manufacturer's Internet web site that laboratory tests proved that AmQuel+ does not work. Numerous tests outside of Kordon's control have been done on AmQuel+ by various independent scientific laboratories and U.S. Government Agencies. The only test that indicated that AmQuel+ was inactive was under complete anaerobic conditions in the water. Since these conditions are not going to exist in aquarium and pond conditions, this is not a factor as to the effectiveness of AmQuel+. Edited April 16, 2009 by treesprite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocko918 April 16, 2009 Share April 16, 2009 (edited) i think you are just making a greater issue by dosing with Amquel+. u should not have to dose to reduce your nitrate. Edited April 16, 2009 by rocko918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme_tooth_decay April 16, 2009 Share April 16, 2009 (edited) This issue reminds me of the concept of recirculating skimmers and several other questions in the hobby. The bottom line is: maybe it does something useful...maybe it doesn't. Can't really tell. Frustrating stuff. This case is particularly bad because of the difficulty of setting up a truly valid test experiment I used Amquel+ quite a long time ago, and it seemed like it was doing great things, but that opinion is based mostly on the test kit results. One thing I recall for sure is that stuff sure stinks bad! Edited April 16, 2009 by extreme_tooth_decay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite April 16, 2009 Author Share April 16, 2009 That's funny. On the website they talk about working on decreasing the odor because customers have complained about it! They must have made some progress since you used it last because I really don't think it's so bad. I sent an e-mail a couple hours ago to the company asking them to get some answers or comments, including info on the other studies they talk about on the website, the chemical process between the product and nitrate, where the particles go and whether or not they would be skimmed out, and a couple other things I don't recall at the moment. Hopefully they will answer me soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k April 16, 2009 Share April 16, 2009 If this product worked as well as it claimed, there would be no need for water changes, protein skimmers, etc. You said yourself that it didn't affect the N03 in the DSB- if it doesn't work there, then it doesn't work anywhere. Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtfleming April 16, 2009 Share April 16, 2009 skimming, controlled feeding, weekly water changes, macro algae, gfo and carbon will all help your tank. Will Amquel+ help, who knows. Ofcourse their website is going tell you all those things, they are trying to sell a product. Why do you feel this one product is going solve all your problems? Also red sea test kits are faulty, I wouldnt trust them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite April 17, 2009 Author Share April 17, 2009 (edited) If this product worked as well as it claimed, there would be no need for water changes, protein skimmers, etc. You said yourself that it didn't affect the N03 in the DSB- if it doesn't work there, then it doesn't work anywhere. Enough said. The DSB is 8" deep and there is a lot of nitrate in it, as evidenced by the fact that each time I did a 100% water change, it took no time for the nitrate to jump back up to high. The amount I dosed was enough to remove what was initially in the water at the time that I dosed, and it must have gotten at least part of what was in the sandbed because the newest nitrate test results showed a moderate level of nitrate rather than high as had preveiously been the case. I think if I kept dosing until the sand had no more nitrate in it, that the nitrate will not suddenly show up again. I don't plan to continue with the experiemnt in there though. The company hasn't yet responded to my e-mail. Edited April 17, 2009 by treesprite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman April 17, 2009 Share April 17, 2009 I doubt they will respond... they are playing 'hide the nitrates' - and don't want to give away the magic trick by telling you where they are hidden. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite April 17, 2009 Author Share April 17, 2009 I doubt they will respond... they are playing 'hide the nitrates' - and don't want to give away the magic trick by telling you where they are hidden. bob Stop teasing me Bob! So what do you think the process is? I asked them what it was in teh e-mail. I'm going to send them another one tomorrow telling them I really need to have the info because all of WAMAS is giving negative responses which will give AmQuel+ a bad reputation. They really should be posting more information on their website about the studies they claim were done, if they want to get people to stop relying on the one linked here that Kordon claims in not valid. If AmQuel is reducing oxygen in teh water, would that be an indicator that it is using oxygen up in whatever chemical process it goes through, rather than breaking down molecules such that oxygen would be freed? It would perhaps then indicate a binding of the AmQuel+ with nitrate rather than a breakdown of nitrate. I just want the nitrate away from my livestock so if it stays stuck like that where it can't hurt anything I am happy enough for the moment. I need to read some more on vodka before I start using it... as if I haven't already read so much about it that my brain is swelling.... but I'm afraid I'll create some disasterously overwhelming algae bloom that will suffocate everything. I did notice inteh short time that I dosed vinegar, that the cyano turned from red to black - it still grew but slower and black.... I stopped and it went back to red and speeded up (I wasn't testing the nitrate level). Now I'm all off on a tangent.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman April 17, 2009 Share April 17, 2009 Stop teasing me Bob! So what do you think the process is? I asked them what it was in teh e-mail. Now I'm all off on a Tangent.... I see.... and what ELSE have you been up to lately?? bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite April 18, 2009 Author Share April 18, 2009 LOL. Unfortuneately nothing productive. I said on that fish rescue thread that I would post this: I still think that as long as nitrate is not accessible to the livestock it's as good as not in the tank. We consider when we test our tanks for nitrate, that what is locked up in the sandbed and rock is not in the tank because it is inaccessible to livestock and does not show up on tests. It seems to me that AMQuel+ is just locking up in tiny little particles instead of sand and rock. Water changes will take them out without doing excessive water changes and throwing away water and salt which is costly to pockets and the environment. People force algae blooms on their tanks to get the nitrate to be taken up by bacteria to make it easier to remove from the tank - using AmQuel+ to take up the nitrate seems a lot less risky to me than forcing an algae bloom - I was really tempted to do the algae bloom thing but was afraid, and now I see I can do this instead. The problem is when there are people who think they can use this kind of chemical and never do water changes again. I just want to be able to do water changes that aren't unreasonably excessive like I have been doing. I could solve my problem by tossing all of my old liverock and getting new stuff, but the pocket says no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman April 18, 2009 Share April 18, 2009 The problem with that is - indications are that they are NOT getting rid of any nitrates at all - they are just MASKING the tests, by interfering with the color change. At least that's what I got out of the article. Not to worry - regular water changes will solve the problem anyhow. Nitrates are lower than mine - and my tank is beautiful. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k April 18, 2009 Share April 18, 2009 How about this- ask Randy Holmes Farley on Rc.com about AmQuel+. That guy will give you the best answer that you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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