Please test your alkalinity for me

[dandy7200]

Please test new batches of Instant Ocean salt and record the following:

 

Specific gravity should be 1.0265 or 35ppm:

 

1. Brand of test kit used?

 

2. Reading of Instant Ocean in dkh

 

3. Bucket or box?

 

4. Where you bought the salt and when?

 

In short I believe I have a problem and need your help as fast as possible. Thanks for your time!

[jamesbuf]

Sorry Dan, I don't have one or I'd help out. Is there something wrong with a recent batch of IO salt?

[jamal]

im planning to get some tuesday so i will let you know

[Valeria]

I mixed this couple hours ago.

 

 

 

Specific gravity 1.025

 

1. Brand of test kit used? fastest

 

2. Reading of Instant Ocean in dkh 2.5 mq/L (so that is about 7dkh?)

 

3. Bucket or box? BOX

 

4. Where you bought the salt and when BRK last group buy

[Almon]

Hmmm.....maybe I need a new test kit?

 

SG: 1.026

Salifert

14.4

Box

BRK

 

Dan, what's your readings?

[flowerseller]

Dan,

Here is a thread I started some time ago but has some interesting test results.

You have to skim thru some chatter bu ***'s worth it.

 

I just tested this water that I bought at Tropical Lagoon

box / bag #3 - 03/07

[dandy7200]

I think my tank has been at 6.5dkh for the last three months. Please keep posting your test results on this thread. Chip, how about some more recent results......

[flowerseller]

OOps..

 

I goofed and forgot to put the batch test I have now in the post that I posted above.

 

10.8

mixing for about a week.

Tropical Lagoon sometine in 03/07

box #2 / bag #3(1 more bag till restock)

 

I just added 10g of it to my system and will then make a new batch for nex weekend.

 

 

It tested out at 5.4 dkh X 2 = 10.8

I only used 2ml of water - or - a lower resolution test.

This requires you to X 2 your findings.

Personally, I find this low res test is all I need for week to week testing.

I only test CA once a month as it generally has fallen in line since I know I'm not OOB.

It typicaly runs around 410ish

 

 

?'s

 

is this a result of your new LaMotte test kit

Did you mistakingly not X 2 your results if you did the low res test

Do you think your Salifert kit is bad

Do you think this is result for your recent SPS woe

[lanman]

Please test new batches of Instant Ocean salt and record the following:

 

Specific gravity should be 1.0265 or 35ppm:

 

1. Brand of test kit used?

 

2. Reading of Instant Ocean in dkh

 

3. Bucket or box?

 

4. Where you bought the salt and when?

 

In short I believe I have a problem and need your help as fast as possible. Thanks for your time!

 

I just mixed up a quart specially for you... but reading is higher than I expected. Does it change when you aerate it? I've never tested my water for ALK before I mix it into the tank.

 

SG = 1.065 (that's not easy to hit in a 1-quart mix)

 

ALK = 4.5 meq/L (12.6 dk/H) with Instant Ocean/Marineland/Aquarium Systems test kit (will test with Salifert as soon as I can find the danged instructions!)

 

 

IO salt purchased at the last BRK social, in a 60-pound box of bags.

 

bob

[lanman]

I just mixed up a quart specially for you... but reading is higher than I expected. Does it change when you aerate it? I've never tested my water for ALK before I mix it into the tank.

 

SG = 1.065 (that's not easy to hit in a 1-quart mix)

 

ALK = 4.5 meq/L (12.6 dk/H) with Instant Ocean/Marineland/Aquarium Systems test kit (will test with Salifert as soon as I can find the danged instructions!)

IO salt purchased at the last BRK social, in a 60-pound box of bags.

 

bob

 

 

Okay - throw my results out the window. Obviously it doesn't work with freshly-mixed water or something. Because the Salifert kit is off the scale. I.e. - empty syringe and still no color change. Tried it 5 times. Then measure my tank water - at about 14 dk/H

 

Which seems a little high.

 

bob

[dandy7200]

keep going guys. Every test is helpful at this point.

[steveoutlaw]

Dan-

Do you want just IO or reef crystals?

[dandy7200]

Dan-

Do you want just IO or reef crystals?

 

 

RC is fine. Typical variations of alk are not noticeable between RC and IO.

 

 

is this a result of your new LaMotte test kit

Did you mistakingly not X 2 your results if you did the low res test

Do you think your Salifert kit is bad

Do you think this is result for your recent SPS woe

 

 

yes

I don't do low res test

yes, two of them actually

yes

 

Will explain more later. Right now I am trying to find a constant alk reading for the current supply of IO that is in our area. If anyone has access to a gram scale that can measure in tenths of a gram please let me know (I wont ask why you have it )

[fab]

Dan,

 

You haven't disclosed why you are asking for this data, so I don't know what problem you are trying to solve. I do have some thoughts for you, based on my guess at what you might be trying to determine.

 

If you are trying to determine the consistency of Instant Ocean Salt across a number of different batches or different folks' salt mix, then you would do well to obtain samples of the salt from everyone and run your own test using water from your single source. That would rule out variances in source water and in mixing ratios and in test kits. Come up with a 'standard' test quantity to use, e.g., 1 cup of salt for each test to eliminate variances in mixing ratio.

 

I'd bet that you could get everyone in Wamas who would give you this data to give you a sample of their salt, enough to do your standard test. They could take it to the BRK social next weekend in a ziplock baggie marked with the info you need and there name and contact info. In fact, if they have already run the test and have the data, you could ask them to write their data on the baggie, also.

 

fab

Edited July 29, 2007 by fab

[dandy7200]

What would be closer to accurate for determining the information I am after is if I brought a sample of my tank water to the social and everyone else brought their test kits and told me what they thought their alk kit read.\

 

My results:

 

IO from BRK box

Mixed to 35ppm

12dkh

Salifert #1

 

11.7dkh Salifert #2

 

9.7 dkh Lamotte

 

Guess which test kit I am inclined to believe?

 

Now my tank:

 

Salifert #1 8.6 dkh

Salifert #2 8.3 dkh

Lamotte 6.5 dkh

 

Problems in my tank started 3 months ago when I started using new salifert alk kit. Purchased another new salifert kit last week and the lamotte at the same time. SPS have been slowly bleaching and STN events are common. I've lost some nice stuff in the last month and a long sustained low tank alkalinity I now believe is the cause. I knew Salifert was having some problems and that's why I was erring on the safe side with my alk (normally I keep it at 10dkh) it appears I made the mistake of erring on the wrong side (low instead of high).

 

If I had more test results from peoples salt mix I could likely determine more but, I have to trust the new lamotte kit at this point. I am going to go to the drugstore and see if they can measure some baking soda so I can make a 10dh alk standard for me to test with all of my kits..........

[lanman]

Grrr... just finished this post and the power went out before I could post it.

 

I needed to mix some water anyhow - so I mixed up 20 gallons (normally Saturdays, but I spent the day cutting down trees).

 

It's been swirling around and heating up for a couple of hours.

 

SG = 1.026

 

Salifert test kit says - OFF THE SCALE - i.e - it is telling me that my fresh saltwater is

>16.0 dKh. I actually added several more drops, and it took quite a bit to get it to turn.

 

Tested it with Aquarium Systems kit - it says

5.0 meq/L = 14.0 dKh

 

Just for you - pulled out my NEW Aquarium Systems kit, and tested on the 'precision' test, which said

5.25 meq/L = 14.7 dKh

 

So one or both of those test kits is wrong. wrong. wrong.

 

What does IO say it should be? Or is it too highly dependent on your water supply?

 

bob

[dandy7200]

Seems your Salifert is +2 or so as well.

 

I think I will order a API alk kit and for now raise the tank alk slowly assuming that I have finally found the source of recent troubles. A quick search on Reef Central in the SPS keepers forum shows that I am not even close to alone with this problem.......man I feel out of the loop now

[lanman]

I thought it was the Salifert CALC test kits that were 'off'. And only newer ones. Begins to sound like Salifert in general is having problems.

 

bob

[YBeNormal]

Newer CA and Alk kits from Salifert have been giving wild readings lately. Habib says they have tested all batches except one Alk batch (they couldn't locate their reference stock of that kit) and found no issues but they are still trying to figure out what is wrong. Send a PM to Habib with the batch numbers, where and roughly when purchased and request a replacement kit.

 

The new and replacement kits are supposed to include a reference solution to test against. I should be receiving a replacement Alk kit soon and will let you know.

[Grav]

Dan,

 

I've been testing different batches of IO for years and I've found that the product's CA and ALK results range wildly. Usually lower than ideal, but not always.

 

I had a tank that had very high ALK #s and I couldn't find the cause until I said out loud to the customer.... well I know it isn't the salt... as soon as I said, I knew it was the cause... it tested at 17 DKH.

 

I use a HACH test kit, which I feel is the most accurate (certainlyu the most expensive) kit available. Iuse the kit 15-20 times a week, all my chemicals are always less than 4 or 5 months old and I have a great level of confidence in the results I get. I'm not going to test my water for you as the new batch I have is a mix of IO and RC (I do this often) but would be happy to help validate your results.

 

If you want to meet up Monday morning, send me a PM with address and your Phone #.

 

Phil

[flowerseller]

The kit I have is from before the DC meeting where we voted to do the NADC tank.

 

If it was me, and I was captain of bringing your tank back in line,

 

I would:

Suspend auto WC

Do a manual 20% WC now

Not add anything to it to "adjust" it

Do a 20% WC in 2 days

Not add anything to it to "adjust" it

Do a 20 % WC in another 2 days

Not add anything to it to "adjust" it

Begin top off for ALL evaporation with KALK today,

not some evaporation, not most evaporation, but ALL evaporation should be with KALK

If you remain unsure of your test kit results, I would shut off your CA reactor until you gain confidence in the test results. Drain the reactor and refill with fresh tap water while it's temporarily off line. No need to flush, just refill with tap for temp storage.

 

My thinking:

You don't have confidence in test results so don't adjust to begin with

You believe you have an imbalance. (likely since we even discussed this when I was there for tubefest 07)

You beileve it's ALK related and now question the tests results (smart)

You have long term residences (not Tex but corals) that continue to be in distress

bleaching, rtn, and slow/no growth or thin growth

You are experienced enough in water prep to handle a 60% or more slow change over

to stabilize it

I have enough confidence in IO salt mixed in advance properly (my choice for over 15 yrs) to believe it will help you stabilize without testing for now

Most tanks will do quite well with this simple routine of WC with KALK for all evaporation replacement. (you beileve this to be true too)

I know you have a dominat SPS tank, I've seen it many times, but with what you are describing, it's right up your ally. simple, safe and experienced by use.

 

Not trying to dictate your life style, not asking you to bend over and squeal like a hog, just have enough confidence in properly mixed simple sequence like above.

 

Why must this all come to a head when you are taking your first real Vaction in 5 years? And you started off the week sick as a dog?

 

I remain available while your're away except on Sunday afternoon

[Grav]

Are we not under the impression or at least considering the possibility that, he has a batch od IO that is low in alk? If that is the case, wouldnt WCs work to hurt him?

 

Also if, CA is high (I dont know if it is or not) but if it is, and we add a ballanced additive like kalk... that could hurt us too.

 

I agree that the test results in this case should be questioned before adding huge amounts of ALK buffer, but why not simply run a reliable test.

 

Chip, you have been at this longer than I have, maybe you can help me understand the theory of massive water changes being the fool-proof answer to all water quality issues?

 

To me it seems there are faster, easier, cheaper ways to resolve an imballance. Especally for those that are advanced like Dan. Having 1st hand experiance with the salt mix being the cause of the problem makes me wonder further.

 

Your thoughts?

[YBeNormal]

Grav,

 

I'd normally agree with you on this one but there is a known (and almost admitted) issue with newer Salifert Alk test kits with the readings for Alk being from .9dKh to 3 or more dKh higher than they should be. Dan tested with a Lamotte Alk test kit and ended up with a reading below his target range but in line with what could be expected based upon the actions he has been taking to reduce the incorrectly high readings given by the Salifert test kit.

 

Given two test kits that are giving totally different readings, The choices I see are to (1) find a known reference solution and determine which test kit is right, (2) find a third test kit of a different batch/brand and see what it says (not necessarily proving anything) or (3) knowing that one brand has a known issue at the moment, assume that the other higher priced and well respected brand of test kit is accurate and adjust accordingly. Topping of with kalkwasser and doing IO water changes as Chip suggests would gradually bring the Alk levels back to the ~9.7 dKh reading and is the course of action I would take in this situation.

 

JMHO though...

[flowerseller]

In all the time I've used IO, I've never come accross a batch that, handled properly, was too far out of line. Varies yes, varies in mixed batches from the same bucket or even same bag, yes, but never too far OOL to cause an issue in smaller exchanges.

I don't believe 20% exchanges 3X over the course of 5-6 days with properly mixed water is massive. Nor am I stepping on Phil for saying that.

It amounts to about 60% of his water which is why I suggested it be done slowly and methodicaly while keeping up with evap via KALK.

 

In my conversations with Dan,

he uses KALK for some, but not all top off = less than a couple gallons a week

he uses a kalk reactor for that

he uses a CA reactor

he does 1-2g WC per day via ACjr

he uses a skimmer

he uses the toilet several times a day

he uses IO salt

he uses seachem additives to adjust the exchange water

he uses 2 part to bring values in line as needed

he also eats PB&J samiches for lunch

 

I have never been a fan of adjusting new water about to be used for exchange,

other than to make sure it's real close SG

 

Contrary to some idiotic wives tail (and not a tight little one I might add)

You do not have to use the whole bag to make a batch.

you should not add to adjust (tried it 13-14 years ago, lesson learned)

you should premix 24+ hrs ahead and adjust only SG

you should vigorously mix it just short a rolling boil during that time

this allows for levels to equalize as well as raise PH since it starts out LOW when salt is added

 

I've had some of the best, well thought out discussions with Dan about water, so I know we understand each other and respect each others philosphies.

 

Why do I think he's at issue?

I believe he got a small amount of peanut butter stuck under his finger nail and some of his corals have developed a peanut alergy.

Really, I don't know, all our tanks are great big experiments anyway.

I've been doing this stuff for long enough to know that @&%T happens, unfortunately, it's Dans turn.

 

I've tried most of the test kits out there and any of them have the propensity to have the same issue some are saying about Salifert.

 

Basics and consistancy, it's all about basics and consistancy. I consider IO one of the basics as well as one of the constants.

[dandy7200]

Thanks for the brainstorming everyone.

 

I am pretty confident in what I see in the tank. It tells me my alk is low. The test kit tells me my alk is low. My water IS balanced. I am also confident in my equipment to do the adjusting and not freak out and rush anything here. I turned up my calcium reactor, left the auto water change doing it's thing and the levels should come up on their own over the course of the next week or two. Small frequent water changes are good to ADD things and big water changes are good to SUBTRACT things. I don't believe this is or was a salt issue. I lost my first coral in over a year right after I got this new test kit. I attributed it to a alk swing since my first test showed an alk spike (now realize that it was a faulty high reading). I over corrected and dropped my alk to 6.5 and have been very careful in keeping it there over the last few months.

 

Signs of low alk stress include: Colors fading and loss of zooxanthellae. STNing from the base. Slow growth. This all happens slowly over the course of days or weeks. Some parts of the coral display excellent PE while the next branch is losing flesh. Friggin weird stuff.......