jason the filter freak May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 #1 I'm trying to talk the parents into letting me put a 75 gal + sump etc. On the 3rd floor of the town house. It's a house thats olny about 20 years old at max, should it should definately stand the weight. Alas they won't take my word for it. So here is the question, how can I go about proving it, where might I call to find out plans for the house, or do I go to find the builder? #2 Is there any way to insure a tank (with hundreds, and when I'm finished thousands of dollars in equipment I thought it'd be worth asking), has any one found out? If I have a fire or catastrophic blow out, can I just claim it on home owners insurance, or do I have to declare the tank before said disaster occurs. #3 Will standard home owners insurance cover a blow out, the water damage to the house that is, or is there some extra insurace that needs to be purchased to cover such an event, or am I just s.o.l? Thanks In advance, jason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooroo May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 (edited) #1- I live in a 16 year old townhouse and the tank is on the 2nd level. Tanks under 100 gallons are fine on any floor as long as you place them along a load bearing wall. Load bearing meaning outside walls for townhouses. Actually, I had my 65 gallon in the middle of my old apartment with no problems. How to convince them of that? Maybe you can contact a structural engineer or know a contractor that can tell you if a wall is load bearing and convince your parents it will be fine where you plan to place it. I will warn you though, its not fun lugging buckets of water up any number of flights of stairs. If you can have your RO/DI unit on the same level it will make you much happier. #2 and #3- Homeowners insurance often does not cover floods of any kind. Some may cover pipe break floods. Best to check insurance documents. I can almost guarantee if you do not take out a separate policy on the tank alone, your insurance will not cover any damage done to the house by the tank. And I doubt you can take out a separate policy just for your tank. A flood policy covers disasters such as a river flooding your house. So after a slightly long winded answer, the short answer is no, your insurance will not cover anything that has to do with the tank flooding your house. Best to put as many safeguards on the tank as possible to keep floods small to non-existant. I've had my tank for 3 years now and never had a flood. I do this by keeping the area the pump pulls water from small so only so much water can be pumped into the aquarium before the pump runs dry. So if the overflow is clogged, or I forget to refill the top off container, only the pump will overheat and seize up. Now if the pump catches fire from getting too hot after seizing (not likely as it would be sitting in some water to keep it cooler or put out the fire) and my house burns down, that will be covered by my homeowners insurance as it has nothing to do with flood damange. Aquariums and linked equipment are standard in homes, and they did not ask me if I had one, so its not likely that they get many claims that an aquarium burned down a house. The did ask if I had a pitt bull, rottweiller, doberman, german shepherd, akita, or a mix of one of those breeds because they get lots of claims of dog bites from those breeds. Edited May 9, 2007 by rooroo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbartco May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 # Maybe you can contact a structural engineer or know a contractor that can tell you if a wall is load bearing and convince your parents it will be fine where you plan to place it. your best bet. I will warn you though, its not fun lugging buckets of water up any number of flights of stairs. If you can have your RO/DI unit on the same level it will make you much happier. very important to remember the short answer is no, your insurance will not cover anything that has to do with the tank flooding your house. Best to put as many safeguards on the tank as possible to keep floods small to non-existant. Though safegaurds are the answer to not causing your family members to want to kill you, some insurances will cover. USAA luckily took care of my tank as an "appliance" that flooded, like a dishwasher or washmachine. That said, it was 2 floors of carpeting, drywall, and even new a furnace because I had the tank on the second floor of my townhouse. They would not cover any problems with the tank (so what at that point!). I won't ever put another large tank on an upper floor again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rascal May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 Also make sure to orient the tank so it is perpendicular to the joists not parallel. To prove to your parents it could take the weight, why not invite the three largest participants in the WAMAS weight loss challenge over to your house and have them all stand in the spot you want to put the tank and then jump up and down. On second thought, maybe that's not such a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogurnda May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 I had an engineer at the house for another reason, so I had him look at the place I was putting the new system (100 gallons total) upstairs. He basically said what rooroo said, but charged a lot more. He also pointed out that the bathtub has a similar weight, and never seems to crash through the floor. To reiterate what others have said, the floor giving way isn't my worst nightmare. I am more concerned about the tank or sump failing, causing a pretty cascade down two flights of stairs to find the drain in the basement. Time to think about containment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonkadawg May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 ... Though safegaurds are the answer to not causing your family members to want to kill you, some insurances will cover. USAA luckily took care of my tank as an "appliance" that flooded, like a dishwasher or washmachine. ... This is good to know - I too am covered by USAA. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seppler May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 Yes, I too have had my sump spontaneously spring a leak and dump 30 gallons of water on my kitchen hardwood floor. Fortunately, the basement is unfinished, so the water drained and sat on concrete. But that tank is gone and I will never have a tank with a sump on an upstairs floor again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak May 9, 2007 Author Share May 9, 2007 All in all this isn't making me feel much better at all. :( . Whats the best way to find out which way the joists run? Stud finder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooroo May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 Generally when tanks spring a leak its a slow one so you have time to remove and take down the tank before 60 gallons of saltwater seeps through your floor. The disasterous failures are few and far between. Though it would be interesting to find out how many club members have had a disasterous failure. A more major concern is accidental flooding caused by an overflow clogging or an auto-top off being stuck on. And this can usually be avoided by compartmentalizing your sump and redundant safeguards. The only reason my tank is not on the 1st floor is there is no room for it there, and it is not in the basement because the basement is unfinished. So it stays on the second floor in the office. Some day I might convince my husband that there is room in the living room and then take over part of his woodshop for a fish room (sump through the floor), but I don't know that I want to move the whole tank anytime soon and I can't see holes in the floor as being a positive when we sell the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogurnda May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 Generally when tanks spring a leak its a slow one so you have time to remove and take down the tank before 60 gallons of saltwater seeps through your floor. Having had a sump crack, and the autotopoff keep trying to fill it up overnight, I am not particularly comforted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rascal May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 All in all this isn't making me feel much better at all. :( . Whats the best way to find out which way the joists run? Stud finder? Stud finder or hammer should work. As for sumps, maybe you could minimize the chance of a leak by using a rubbermaid container instead of a standard 20G tank, which I think only has 1/8" glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooroo May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 All in all this isn't making me feel much better at all. :( . Whats the best way to find out which way the joists run? Stud finder? In all honestly I did not verify which way the joists run when I put my tank where I did. I now don't even know which way they run. I wonder what the building code is for how much weight per square foot a residential floor must be able to hold. If we can find that out, we can certainly calculate how much weight per square foot a 75 gallon tank with a 30 gallon or so sump will have. If you're at all worried about floods, go sumpless. That eliminates a lot of the potential problems with floods. Having had a sump crack, and the autotopoff keep trying to fill it up overnight, I am not particularly comforted. Thats why you have the autotopoff on a timer! Don't know how often sumps just randomly crack... if you drill a hole in the glass it makes more sense that it would crack. Just a general observation that it seems disasterous faliures don't occur that often. But I could be totally wrong. And I better knock on wood otherwise I'll go home to find 15 gallons of water on my floor. But see, its only 15 gallons. Damage wouldn't be THAT bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeltwayBandit May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 All in all this isn't making me feel much better at all. :( . Whats the best way to find out which way the joists run? Stud finder? There are a couple of options. 1. Cut a hole in the 2nd floor ceiling. Observe orientation of supports. 2. Look in the basement. Many basements have at least a part that is unfinished where you can see how/where the supports run. 3. Use a stud finder on the 2nd floor ceiling. (not as much fun as cutting a hole in the ceiling but it should work.) 4. If your townhouse is as crappily built as mine, look carefully at the ceiling and you will be able to see where they did a crappy job covering the screws/nails holding the sheet rock to the ceiling. Follow the lines and you will see where the beams run. (however, I caution you it still isn't as fun as cutting a hole in the ceiling!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rioreef May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 Searching the NET I found this info: Floors are engineered to typically handle loads of 40 to 50 lbs / square foot. On a 12x12 room there is 144 sq ft or a load bearing weight of 5760 lbs in the entire room. At 50 lbs it is up to 7500 lbs. If the stands has four legs you could put 2x4s or 3/4 plywood under the stand on the floor to spread the weight out. This way it is not concentrated in 4 localized spots. Because the subfloor material needs to be able to handle the weight too. When it is concentrated in a small area it could cause problems, therefore spread the weight. Make sure the wall it is against the has the joists running perpendicular to it, if not, move the tank to the adjacent wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooroo May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 At roughly 8lbs per gallon, a 75 gallon tank is about 600 lbs water alone. You're looking at less than 1000 lbs for the tank plus all equpiment, rock, etc. Thats way less than the rating. I think you're safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trble81 May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 Stud finder or hammer should work. As for sumps, maybe you could minimize the chance of a leak by using a rubbermaid container instead of a standard 20G tank, which I think only has 1/8" glass. How about a thick acrylic sump from NAGA......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tee May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 Here is the tank size, tank weight, and with water. You have to add your sand, and rock on top of that to figure out the total weight of the whole setup. Hope this will help you out. [Tank Size Exact Outside Dimensions Weight Weight (inches) (L x W x H) Empty Full (Including frame) (lbs) (lbs) 60 Gallon 48 3/4 x12 7/8 x23 7/8 111 710 65 Gallon 36 7/8 x19 x24 5/8 126 775 70 Gallon 48 7/8 x19 x21 5/8 165 865 90 Gallon 48 7/8 x19 x24 5/8 182 1080 100 Gallon 72 7/8 x19 x19 5/8 189 1180 120 Gallon 48 7/8 x25 x25 5/8 230 1430 125 Gallon 72 7/8 x19 x23 5/8 236 1480 Tee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax7774 May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 Jason, If the house was built within the 25 years, and is up to code, you can drive a large truck into the middle of the room without worrying. A 75G tank and sump is no where near enough weight to get concerned about. If your parents are giving you grief over this, tell them it is no different than the average queen sized water bed. today's houses are way over engineered, and are much stronger than people realize. (thanks to overzealous lawyer's, lawsuits....). The biggest risk is from unintended floods. I personally would not have a tank anywhere where there wasn't a drain nearby in the floor. Insurance issues will vary depending on your company, you need to contact them to find out what they offer. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Ric May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 In all honestly I did not verify which way the joists run when I put my tank where I did. I now don't even know which way they run. I wonder what the building code is for how much weight per square foot a residential floor must be able to hold. If we can find that out, we can certainly calculate how much weight per square foot a 75 gallon tank with a 30 gallon or so sump will have. ... Table R301.5 in the 2003 International Residential Code specifies a minimum of only 30 pounds per square foot for a "sleeping room" in a residence. 40 pounds per square foot is for non-sleeping rooms. Your county may require higher, though; especially for multifamily buildings. A cubic foot of fresh water weighs approximately 62.4 lbs, while a cubic foot of salt water weighs approximately 64 lbs. Plan to have continuous base solid all the way around your tank rather than just "four legs." Don't forget diagonal braces or diaphragms to counter lateral forces to make sure your rectangular base doesn't become a rhombus. Do you know much about structures / "triangulating the forces" so to speak? The joists are most likely perpendicular to the outside wall, running in the shorter direction of the room. Verify it by going to the room below and use a studfinder on the ceiling to find the joists if the subfloor is too thick. Also, a bearing wall on the third floor will be over a bearing wall or large beam on the second floor. If there is a wall on the third floor that has nothing under it on the second floor, it's likely not a bearing wall. 'Ric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman May 9, 2007 Share May 9, 2007 . . .but I don't know that I want to move the whole tank anytime soon and I can't see holes in the floor as being a positive when we sell the house. That's what throw-rugs are for. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak May 10, 2007 Author Share May 10, 2007 I like the info about the floor as well as the idea of not having my sump flood. Can one contact the builder and find out what the floors were made to hold? Is that possible, is it on the deed... what kind of paper work goes with a house that would let me know? Oh and thank you very much, all of you for your quick and thought out responses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooroo May 10, 2007 Share May 10, 2007 There wasnt any information on my deed about the building quality. If you know who the builder was you could certainly contact them and request the information. It is possible that you can find that information in public records, but I don't know what to look for. Your best bet if a bunch of schmucks opinions on an internet forum aren't substantial enough (it wouldn't be for me in most cases ) is to find a structural engineer or a general contractor, pay them a few hundred dollars to have them come out and tell you its ok and what direction the joists are going. Or if you have a contractor friend, thats even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Ric May 10, 2007 Share May 10, 2007 Your county permitting office will have copies of the plans submitted for permits, which will show the orientation of the framing members and the loading criteria used. 'Ric (Registered Archischmuck) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooroo May 10, 2007 Share May 10, 2007 'Ric are you an engineer? (Schmuck as well ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Ric May 10, 2007 Share May 10, 2007 Architect+schmuck = Archischmuck. In a strange way, that seems to have a nice ring to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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