Big tank design feedback wanted

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

We are in the process of building our next house and I am upgrading my tank. I currently have a Waterbox 220(180g 6 foot tank) that has been up for about 3 years now. I will be moving all my livestock and corals from that into the new one. I am curious for any and all feedback as I describe out how the tank is designed since I have time to change things a little still. 

 

I already have the logistics set up with Planet Aquarium and a LFS for delivery and such the tank will be an 8x4x4 glass tank so a big boy at nearly 1000g. I like higher viewing windows and my other half doesn't want a much bigger footprint than my current 6x2x2. The reason for the depth is the tank will be visible on two sides, the front and one of the short sides. The other two sides open to a large fish room/utility room and will be blacked out. The stand is steel and I will have extra space on the back and one side to stand on the stand. The tank is in the basement and there are 9'6" foot ceilings and the stand is 30 inches tall so I should have enough room to clean the tank including getting in it(I hope). 

 

Equipment(100% open to input here please) 

I have 3 Mp 40s already I plan to re use so about 12,000 gph minimum flow since i run them high

Plan to buy one of the biggest outputs of gyres I can(never owned a gyre). Should be enough flow with these and the return for just softies

Return pump is a dolphin 625 

Lights I want to do 2 reef breeders photon 50 pluses with a couple lumen bars from them. (I only have softies and dont intend to have rock on the whole tank really only in a 6.5x2.5x2.5 area which the lights can cover. )

Sump = a 125g aqueon so it fits under the stamd, I will just use eggcrate or cannibalize a cheap tank and make a baffle or two. The sump will just be big a big refugium and a place for heaters and a return pump. 

Tunze ato

Heaters(couple finnex ones for the temp probes and a couple big eheim ones) 

 

 

I have most if not all of the rock and I will rinse and reuse some of the sand. 

 

My plumbing knowledge is terrible. The LFS will be handling that part. 

 

I know my stock list as I have about a third of the fish already and will start QTing them over the summer before the tank is ready in the fall. 

 

If you made it this far what am I missing? What would anyone change? 

 

[WheresTheReef]

First of all… wow.
 

I’d be interested in hearing from anyone who maintains an aquarium that tall and deep. The 4’ height of that tank plus the 30” stand seems like it can make it difficult to maintain. How do plan to access the central part of the tank? I complain about reaching in to grab/place stuff in a 120g that is only 24” tall lol. Will you have access all the way around? It might actually take you getting into the tank to maintain it.
 

Have you considered light penetration to try and provide enough PAR towards the bottom of the tank?

 

Those few powerheads sound like a lot of flow, but I feel it will take more than just an additional gyre to move enough water.

 

What equipment will you have in the sump? I believe a 125g is around 20ish inches tall. With a 30” stand, moving equipment in/out for maintenance might be an issue.

 

Looking forward to hearing more on this!

 

 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Appreciate the response @WheresTheReef! Yeah I plan to get in the tank to clean it and by the time I am not we should have kids to handle that for me lol. Thats the reason for the stand being a little short. Gives me room to stand in the tank. When I scape it I plan to not scape as much around the outer edges so I can walk in there. I am pretty tall with long arms with my significant other loving to use the mag floats lol. I feel decently ok with the inconveniences of cleaning it. The flow and the lights I am much less certain of... 

 

That is what I am thinking I may need some more flow in there just to cover more of the tank. I think I may add another mp40 or even an mp60. I worry more about the spread and dead zones so I hope someone with a large tank chimes in. Maybe adding a few more gyres instead is better? I have never owned one but supposedly they less laminar than the mp's and wavemakers. I dont need a ton of flow as really just softies but dont want to have a dead zone/s that I have to clean all the time either. 

 

Light is definitely my biggest curiosity. That depth will look great but definitely makes lighting and cleaning a challenge. The photon 50s say they can cover a 72x24x36 for softies. I am thinking 2 next to each other(hung from the ceiling) and then a light bar on each side of the tank should give enough coverage(since I am not scaping much around the edges). I am just doing softies for now anyways. I have only seen a photon 48 in person and it looks like it could do the job. But lighting is definitely what has me hung up. I don't want to spend 8k on radions like I have been quoted for soft corals. That is overkill in my opinion. I have never used anything non LED either but maybe those are best? Not sure hopefully someone chimes in to help. 

 

Minimal sump equipment. Just the return pump, heaters and a refugium light/lights. Should be about 12" of clearance which I think should be enough really just have to be able to get the return pump in there. Really the only purpose of my sump is a fuge to eat up all the trates and a place to hide the heaters. 

[DaJMasta]

While I've got no experience with this scale of tank, I definitely think flow is on the low side, it's probably worth checking out some tank tours/threads from people with similarly large systems - I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them use double to triple the amount of flow you described, but probably more leaning on the mixed reef/sps tank side, which could at least be part of it.

Gyres can be good for longer distance flow, but I think the biggest consideration may be pump placement - if you want two clear walls, you have only two perpendicular ones to mount pumps, and especially with sort of single direction mp40s/60s, achieving the flow you want may be difficult just because of the geometry of it.

For lighting I don't really know what the PAR levels at the depths are going to look like, but I think LEDs especially with tighter optics seem to be the preference for raw penetration, and I think using several fixtures high over the rocks and sand will result in fairly even lighting, so I'm not sure if there's particular benefit when it comes to shimmer or lack thereof.  That said, those Photon 50s seem to be recommended for 6' tanks only when mounted 18" above the tank - while the depth of this one may help compensate for that somewhat, I don't know if you'll have the space overhead to fit that much.

Other potential (and probably more expensive) options could be XR15s instead of 30s spaced apart in a grid - something like 8 would do great for coverage (maybe even 7 where there are 4 in the front row and 3 in the back) and look great to my eyes in terms of spectrum - though I don't know if there's a lot of info on PAR at those depths.  While I'd expect a single light to be inadequate at 4', I think getting the extra light from adjacent fixtures should fill it out pretty well.  Another potential option could be Neptune Skys, a newer fixture but now with some track record and again very appealing looking spectrum output.  They're probably closer to an XR30 in terms of output, but a little broader spread, so there's a chance you'd be able to get away with 4 of them if you don't mind a little bit of fringing front to back.  The go-to recommendation for depth is usually Kessils, though, so 2-3 larger ones as 'spotlights' for those things that need a little extra on the sandbed and then some light bars or something like the Photons for more general, even lighting may do pretty well too, though you'd probably want to consider your aquascape/coral placement while planning where to mount them.

[lynn.reef.nerd]

I would check out @Blue Tang Clan's build. His plumbing is magnificent. 

[Blue Tang Clan]

1 hour ago, lynn.reef.nerd said:

I would check out @Blue Tang Clan's build. His plumbing is magnificent. 

Ha, that's generous @lynn.reef.nerd! The plumbing is colorful for sure!

 

1. I would suggest more flow -- you'll need at least 2 MP40s on each 4' side, and then more of something on the back wall. 

2. Electrical isn't mentioned anywhere, and that is pretty important. Since you have walls open, I would STRONGLY recommend another circuit or even two (15 or 20amp) if you can still get wiring through the studs. Lighting can take up an entire circuit once you start adding fill lights, refugium lights - lights in the room itself, etc.. The important thing is that you want REDUNDANT circuits so it one breaker trips, you don't cripple the tank:

 

Circuit 1:

1. 80W - Return Pump 1
2. 80W - UV?
3. 45W - Skimmer
4. 38W - MP40
5. 38W - MP40
6. 52W - Gyre
7. 300W - Heater
8. 200W - Large LED light
9. 200W - Large LED light

========
1033W

Circuit 2:

1. 80W - Return Pump 2
2. 38W - MP40
3. 38W - MP40
4. 52W - Gyre
5. 300W - Heater
6. 20W - ATO
7. 200W - Large LED light
8. 200W - Large LED light
9. 120 - Refugium light

========
1048W

What if you add more lights? What about random stuff you plug into the wall? A standard 15amp circuit maxes out at 1800W, and you should only run it at 80% max continuous, which is 1440. You have enough headroom with two circuits, but one more wouldn't hurt, if you're able to tie one in from adjoining room. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Blue Tang Clan

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

I am glad you asked about electric haha. My knowledge of electrical is probably equally as poor as my plumbing. The nice thing is we aren't to the point of electrical yet and can still make some design changes as we are finishing up with some MoCo permitting(takes forever). Let me preface all the below by saying I appreciate your response because I am definitely going to talk with the builder and the electrician about this one. I didn't even think about it much really. 

 

The tank is going into a storage/mechanical room with the tank having 2 sides open to the basement. That room also has the main 400 amp box for the house. The house will have solar power and be on the grid as a backup with enough solar batteries to run the house essentials(inluding tank for about a week). Buttttt I definitely wasn't even thinking about a separate circuit or anything electrical in my planning really. Figured well 400 amps seems like enough but you are right there is much more. Ill talk to the electrician and builder about this more for sure. Thanks! 

 

It seems so far the flow is also definitely something I need to up. I think now what I am going to do is run 2 mp40s on each 4 foot side and two gyres on the back. If I need more at that point Ill upgrade to the mp60s. Those things move some serious water 

[DaJMasta]

400A is actually quite a bit for a house, so that's probably not the problem, you just want to make sure that there is more than one breaker from the box that feeds over to the tank, as mentioned.  An individual standard breaker is usually 15A, which at 120V nominal line voltage gives you your 1800W maximum figure.  That just means you need to budget less than that much power per individual circuit breaker plugin on your main box, two or three breakers worth off of your main box would only be 30-45A of the total 400A you can get from the grid.  The solar and backup battery systems certainly add complexity to the whole thing, but if all of the normal outlets in your house can be powered from the batteries then any added breakers for the fish tank would already be covered - probably just worth confirming with the battery pack/solar installer that the circuits you need are indeed able to run off of your batteries.  If the batteries only power a limited subset of the breaker, you just have to make sure one of the tank ones is on that breaker and that it has the essential tank equipment plugged into it (circulation, heat, controller).

The short is that it probably won't be much extra expense, but it is definitely worth planning out as adding extra breaker(s) and runs over to the tank after the fact will cost bringing out the electrician again, at minimum.

[howaboutme]

@smokythemattman@gmail.com From what you've described, is your house designed to be net zero? If you're using the grid as backup, it sounds like you can generate enough (most times) power from your PVs (or others) to offset the power you consume. Don't forget that oftentimes you can sell any unused power you have back to the grid, though the fact that you plan to have a power hungry element like a huge tank doesn't help. But at least it looks good!  Congrats on the house, that is awesome

Edited April 24, 2022 by howaboutme

[cpeguero]

Exciting build! A few bits of input:

Flow- if it’s still an option to add to your tank, you could consider closed loops for getting flow everywhere. I know they aren’t as popular these days, but I put 2 in my 260 because I didn’t want powerheads visible on my tank walls. Just a thought.

Electrical- you’ve already gotten some great input. I put 4 20 amp circuits in my fish room for redundancy. Make sure they put splash guards on all the outlets. All my outlets are at about head height as well to minimize that risk.

I also have two circuits by the display for lighting and pumps.

Another concern is that your breaker panel is in your fish room. Mine is in the next room over. When I had some work done on the house, the inspector strongly recommended putting a door between the spaces, since he had seen several houses with saltwater tanks adjoining that had badly rusted breaker boxes. You may not be able to do that, but worth investigating some sort of barrier to prevent corrosion from salt spray.

Also, consider waterproofing of the floor and where wall meets floor. If/when you have a major spill, you want that water to stay in your fish room, not soak your finished living space.


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[Blue Tang Clan]

Floor drain - it’s invaluable on a new build. I did a trench drain and it saved my butt a few times when things spill (and they will)

 

On a new build, a 20amp circuit cost Pennie’s more than installing a 15amp circuit. Run 3 and you’re fine - the cost is negligible at the time of build. And don’t let the electrician tie in other mechanical equipment on the same circuit - they can sometimes be lazy and try to combine circuits if they aren’t explicitly told. Also consider mounting those outlets higher in case there is splashing.

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Hey guys thanks again keep it coming haha! First let me address the net zero without turning this into a home design thread more than it is haha. There is geothermal, solar, triple pane windows and overkill insulation. It should end up being net zero or as you said I think we should push some back to the grid(that and resale if need be is the only reason for the hookup). Really just wanted a home with no grid dependence (well + septic + solar) and the house isn't overly large at all but it is quite open and has a mini ocean in the basement haha so wanted some efficiency. And don't want a 400$ a month power bill. 

 

Flow- I wasn't against closed loop but I like the fuge/sump and I can handle looking at powerheads for some reason but dont like heaters in the tank. 

 

Electrical again. Seems like the verdict is 3 20 amp circuits. This is good because now I at least know what to ask for instead of getting a best guess! As far as placement of the boxes @cpeguero my fiance is going to love you as she didnt want me to take over that whole utility room haha and "make it smell like a fish store". I think I will end up splitting the utility room so there is a fish room and all the mechanical stuff separate. I actually think this will be much better for us longer term as well. Not just for electrical but controlling humidity and more. 

 

As for drains and spills and water proofing. I am glad someone brought it up. The floor will just be concrete back there and some rugs because I knew it would take a beating and its just storage/fish room. There is going to be a floor drain near the tank in case it decides to have an incident there isn't a lagoon in the basement. However I think with where the utility sink and the tank will be there may be a better drain option(Googles trench drains) . I didn't even think about waterproofing but I have some more reading to do there now a well. 

 

Funny how much can go into a fish tank hahaha. I knew I would get some great feedback. Much appreciated keep it rolling! This will eventually get turned into the build thread! 

[cpeguero]

On the flooring - be sure to seal the concrete. Saltwater tends to like to eat it…. I also bought some cheap “puzzle piece” exercise pads off Amazon for the floor. Makes it softer to walk on in bare feet and won’t get totally destroyed by some water.

One example of flooding from my fish room - I have a utility sink that uses an ejection pump to drain, since it’s all below the main house drain level. I run my RO waste line in there. Most of the time, no problems. One morning, I wake up to my leak alarms going off. For some reason the ejection pump is clogged and my sink is overflowing onto the floor. Never expected that failure, but so glad I waterproofed and prepared.

Also, leak alarms, EVERYWHERE! I bought some made by Govee. They’re a tiny bit more expensive than the “dumb” leak alarms. They have a wifi gateway and you can put up to 10 on a single gateway. They’re loud (can hear them two floors up) and they send you email and app alerts. You can name them so when you get the alert, you have an idea of where the leak is. Saved my butt numerous times.

If you can put a floor drain in, do it. Wish I could, but couldn’t find a good answer on whether that would impact my radon abatement system, and was mid-pandemic, so wanted to minimize people coming in.


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[AlanM]

Don't skimp on lighting in the fish room. Make it easy to see everything in there.  Stuff on shelves, plumbing, all of the sump, all of the valves, drivers, controllers, wires, etc.

 

Also, don't put things where you have to climb over other things to get to it if it breaks.  It seems like a reasonable thing to hide all of the plumbing where you can't see it because you'll never need to touch it again, but I guarantee you'll regret it.

[Blue Tang Clan]

Seal the concrete, or put polyurea down on top of it. It can handle any type of corrosion (chemicals, etc.) including saltwater. It's a little pricey, but well worth it. The installer can go up 4-5 inches on the perimeter wall so any big spills are contained. You cannot treat a concrete floor with that type of protective coating after you put living things in the area, as the smell/vapors will kill everything in your tank.

 

Also consider FRP (PVC wall board) for the bottom half, like this from Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Glasliner-4-ft-x-8-ft-White-090-FRP-Wall-Board-MFTF12IXA480009600/100389836

 

 

[cpeguero]

+1 on the FRP. I installed it on the ceiling of my fish room, since it was originally exposed floor joists. I just used thick plastic sheeting (paint drop cloth type) on the drywall surfaces that were behind tanks. Should have done the FRP on the other walls…


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[lynn.reef.nerd]

Talk about drains .... highly recommend .... 

 

Yesterday I forgot to turn off the pump and ended up with 200 gal of saltwater on my floor. Unfortunate for me, I have no drain. Takes a lot of papertowel to wipe up that mess. I'm surprised none of the electrical died.