Coral Hind March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 That just raised more questions but I'm sure he did it right and the details are just lost in translation. I think the piggyback term is what is concerning some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 Yeah, I don't work inside the panel so I'm not sure if this is "right". When I added circuits to my panel I had my electrician do the panel work and I ran the outlets...big difference in knowledge/skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE March 28, 2013 Author Share March 28, 2013 I know he load tested the exsisting circuit and traced it..... and it only had a few outlets on it that ran lamps with very little draw, so it was no big deal. Sorry for the confusion. He did say that we have approx 30-35, if not more amps avalible for the tank system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE March 28, 2013 Author Share March 28, 2013 Is "PIGGYBACKING" a bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 If you used a piggyback breaker there were probably no open spots so he took out one 20A breaker and put in a 20A piggyback breaker which is actually two 20A breakers in the space that would normally be used by one of them. Maybe that's where the 40A confusion came in too. Or if there was one open spot and you need two 20A circuits he could put in a piggyback breaker to give you the two 20A circuits (again, the 40A number comes into play) with one slot in the box. This is how I understand piggyback breakers...They are used to expand your panel when your panel is full...I don't know what he did is considered "piggybacking"...I thought you could only have one wire to the bar and then you spilt the circuit in a receptacle (i.e. not in the panel)...I just don't know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flooddc March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 Thanks John.....We ran just 1 wire. So does that mean I have only 20amps? For some reason, I thought, and remember, I have no clue about electricity, I had 40 amps combined out there. 2 20amp circuits is what I'm being told. He said it's probably closer to 30-35 avalible for that circuit. We used 12-3 wire. 1 circuit is dedicated 20amp service and it piggy backs to another 20amp breaker that has barely any load on it at all. I am no electrician. but what you mentioned quite concerning! 12 gauge wire is not enough for even a 20A circuit. You said 1 wire (12 gauge) for 2- 20A. You need a at least 10 gauge wire for 20A dependent on distance. For a 40A ckt you will need a 8 gauge wire. Is your dad an electrician? Also, I would check the wire rating too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 12AWG is for 20A, 14AWG for 15A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE March 28, 2013 Author Share March 28, 2013 I am no electrician. but what you mentioned quite concerning! 12 gauge wire is not enough for even a 20A circuit. You said 1 wire (12 gauge) for 2- 20A. You need a at least 10 gauge wire for 20A dependent on distance. For a 40A ckt you will need a 8 gauge wire. Is your dad an electrician? Also, I would check the wire rating too. I will look at the wire tonight. Yes he was an electrician for 30 years. I thought 12-3 was the correct wording... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 Yes he was an electrician for 30 years. No faith in pops?!?! Hope he doesn't find out about this thread...okay, I am convinced this is good, next topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE March 28, 2013 Author Share March 28, 2013 Just dont want my house to burn down! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 I believe 12-3 wire has a white, black, and red with a bare ground wire. 12-2 has white and black with a bare ground. Wonder if the white is a shared neutral between two 20A circuits with separate hots on black and red on the "piggyback" breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sachabballi reef March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 .You will learn what outlets to avoid plugging in a vacuum, space heater, compressor, beer fridge, etc to prevent *possibly* tripping aquarium equipment... hmmm this might be the best part of this whole thread....let's talk beer fridges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE March 28, 2013 Author Share March 28, 2013 I believe 12-3 wire has a white, black, and red with a bare ground wire. 12-2 has white and black with a bare ground. Wonder if the white is a shared neutral between two 20A circuits with separate hots on black and red on the "piggyback" breaker. This is correct! I have him on the phone now! 12-3 wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 (edited) I believe 12-3 wire has a white, black, and red with a bare ground wire. 12-2 has white and black with a bare ground. Wonder if the white is a shared neutral between two 20A circuits with separate hots on black and red on the "piggyback" breaker. Most likely, but the existing breaker is still wired to something...That's where I am hung up...if you were going to tap into a circuit, why not do it in a box? I understand he was already in the panel, but then why not add a 2nd new 20A breaker instead of tapping into an existing one? Edited March 28, 2013 by John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 Is "PIGGYBACKING" a bad thing? If he has two wires going to the same breaker or spliced two circuits together inside the panel to run to one breaker than yes it is a bad thing. No wire nuts in the panel and only one wire per breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE March 28, 2013 Author Share March 28, 2013 We DID add another 20amp circuit breaker and piggy backed off another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 You need a at least 10 gauge wire for 20A dependent on distance. Sorry, your information is wrong. It is as John mentioned, 12AWG is for 20A, 14AWG for 15A. Just remember that if you have a 20A breaker and #12 wire you also have to use 20A outlets. Many people buy the cheaper 15A outlets and have them melt/burn because they are under rated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 Yes he was an electrician for 30 years. I thought 12-3 was the correct wording... I'm sure he did it right, no worries!! And 12-3 is what I would have used for the situation you have described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE March 28, 2013 Author Share March 28, 2013 Jumped the white (neutral) to the other exsisting 20a breaker from the new 20a one he installed. (i wish he was one here to discribe this) He said this is a very common practice and it is safe. (famous last words....lol) Im sure it's just my lack of terms that is confusing this issue. Again, my appoligies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 It's just the terms that you are swapping around that created the confusion I think. I doubt he jumped a white wire to a "breaker", more likely to a "circuit". So, basically he bonded and shared the neutral or white wire of the 12/3 for the two indivdual circuits with the red and black wires each going to an individual breaker. This is very fine, normal, and safe as he mentioned. Shared neutrals only become problems with computers or other large electronic loads which cause harmonic distortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE March 28, 2013 Author Share March 28, 2013 Gotcha. Thx! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flooddc March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 Sorry, your information is wrong. It is as John mentioned, 12AWG is for 20A, 14AWG for 15A. Just remember that if you have a 20A breaker and #12 wire you also have to use 20A outlets. Many people buy the cheaper 15A outlets and have them melt/burn because they are under rated. Yup! that's recommended minimum! I am sure your Dad knows what's he doing...30 years . hope he don't read our thread...if he does..oh boy!. Minimum required wire size for circuit breaker (copper wire) (NEC 240.3): Minimum Wire Size (AWG) Breaker size (Amps) 14 15 12 20 10 30 8 40 6 50 4 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkiboy March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 Sorry, your information is wrong. It is as John mentioned, 12AWG is for 20A, 14AWG for 15A. Just remember that if you have a 20A breaker and #12 wire you also have to use 20A outlets. Many people buy the cheaper 15A outlets and have them melt/burn because they are under rated. I'm sure he did it right, no worries!! And 12-3 is what I would have used for the situation you have described. +1 - coral hind has it right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 So, basically he bonded and shared the neutral or white wire of the 12/3 for the two indivdual circuits with the red and black wires each going to an individual breaker. This is very fine, normal, and safe as he mentioned. Shared neutrals only become problems with computers or other large electronic loads which cause harmonic distortion. OK. Since you brought up harmonic distortion, and I'm building an LED array with a 48V Meanwell power supply. Would this be one of the cases where Active Power Factor Correction would be desirable in order to reduce harmonic distortion or is PFC a totally separate issue? Folks on the DIY forums at RC and on the lighting forum at nano-reef.com can't quite agree on whether or not paying the premium for a power supply with Active PFC is worth it. (for the record, the one I got has it, just wondering if I could have gotten the $20 cheaper one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind March 28, 2013 Share March 28, 2013 Every house or setup is going to differ and unless you have an expensive meter to check harmonics you will not know the exact situation you have. With the technology in almost everything in our house going more towards electronics, incandescent bulbs going to LED's, and more power supplies being used, the average house may have more issues with harmonics in the future. PFC not only helps the power supply load but also reduces harmonics back into the house system. An added bonus of the active PFC is it levels out your line voltage to the correct amount which will help protect your equipment and make it last longer. In the EU all power supplies are required to have PFC built in to them and I'm sure the US will eventually require it too. For $20 I think it was a good investment to not have to ever worry about if you will have an issue later on or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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