Alan's Rimless 75 build

[AlanM]

So far Ive seen asterina stars and some other brown small starfish come out of the tub of grunge. Also some kind of snail who is now an empty shell do to Mr Crab I assume.

 

My rocks and sand in the display tank are all turning green where the light hits it. Not super intense green like cyano, and not furry like hair algae, just green like someone painted it. It looks brown under the normal day spectrum which is royal blue heavy.

 

I am running biopellets from Avast into the CS1 which I think I have finally learned to drive. I am also running some aluminum oxide based spheres from seachem for phosphate removal in an older style small MR5. No idea how long they last, but my phosphate is down to 0.1 and nitrates at around 2.

 

I am using instant ocean salt, and it consistently mixes really high in mag and cal, but low in dKH. i get around 1500 Mag, 450 Cal, but only 3.0 in meq/L dKH. I seem to have to add around 0.75 grams per gallon of reef buffer from seachem to balance Cal and Alk. Does that make sense? Am I so far off from what I should be getting from IO salt that I may just not be using my test kits right? (titration pink to bloe kind)

[AlanM]

By the way, I have piles of what I think are flatworms on the glass. About 1mm long and bullet shaped with bodies that curve as they move. Nothing that looks like pods. Flooddc sent a link to his copepod eating flatworms. They move really slow, but could these guys really be keeping down my pod population? Is it worth getting some flatworm exit to see them gone so I have pods showing up?

[howaboutme]

Your progress is going very well and you're showing patience. But....Why are you running this and that and want to dose this and that, especially w/ not much but snails or hitchhikers in it? Let your tank do it's thing....Give it time to mature and let your parameters come into balance by itself. My opinion is, if you start doing things to your tank before you even have inhabitants (or need to), you're already a step behind and have resigned yourself to those interventions before you even know you will need them. (I'm not saying you may never need them, just to give it time to figure it out.)

[YHSublime]

By the way, I have piles of what I think are flatworms on the glass. About 1mm long and bullet shaped with bodies that curve as they move. Nothing that looks like pods. Flooddc sent a link to his copepod eating flatworms. They move really slow, but could these guys really be keeping down my pod population? Is it worth getting some flatworm exit to see them gone so I have pods showing up?

Pics? I can't imagine you would want flatworm before adding acros

[surf&turf]

Are the flatworms white or red?

[AlanM]

Your progress is going very well and you're showing patience. But....Why are you running this and that and want to dose this and that, especially w/ not much but snails or hitchhikers in it? Let your tank do it's thing....Give it time to mature and let your parameters come into balance by itself. My opinion is, if you start doing things to your tank before you even have inhabitants (or need to), you're already a step behind and have resigned yourself to those interventions before you even know you will need them. (I'm not saying you may never need them, just to give it time to figure it out.)

 

 

Basically I am using this period to learn how to keep parameters stable and in the correct ranges. Seems like as good a time as any to see how the system works and what affects what. There are correct ranges for alk, for instance, and carbonate is used up while cycling a tank, so it seems pretty appropriate to me to drop in buffer to keep the parameters correct regardless of fish in the tank.

 

 

Pics? I can't imagine you would want flatworm before adding acros

Well, I know they aren't acro eating flatworms or else they would all starve out (I got no acro), so I am not worried so much that these will bother coral. There are apparently approximately a bajillion different flatworms in the world, but these that I have are thriving on something so it must be algae eating flatworms or copepod eating flatworms heh.

[AlanM]

Are the flatworms white or red?

White. I cant seem to get a good pic of them, but will try. They look like slightly translucent little flexible white rocketships. Curved front, two points on back.

[YHSublime]

Well, I know they aren't acro eating flatworms or else they would all starve out (I got no acro), so I am not worried so much that these will bother coral. There are apparently approximately a bajillion different flatworms in the world, but these that I have are thriving on something so it must be algae eating flatworms or copepod eating flatworms heh.

Touché. The connotation with flatworms is a negative one in my mind, interesting if you can get then id'd

[AlanM]

Touché. The connotation with flatworms is a negative one in my mind, interesting if you can get then id'd

 

Here is the thread where flooddc had copepod eating flatworms, he thinks:  http://wamas.org/forums/topic/50030-please-id-this-bug/  I'm trying to get a picture like his.

[surf&turf]

 

Look like these?

[AlanM]

Yep.  Pretty much. 

 

That may have more structure than I'm able to see in mine, but that may be because my eyes and cameras are not up to the task.

 

 

Look like these?

[surf&turf]

http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/reef-aquarium-discussion/85789-white-flatworms.html

 

Here's the link to the thread.

[AlanM]

Interesting.  Short thread there, but one guy there seemed to say they were harmless. 

 

Longer thread here about eradicating them, but no discussion about if they are really bad or not:

 

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/general-reef-aquarium-discussion/10054-flatworm-acoel-planaria.html

 

By the way, the only place they could have come from is the "premium" live rock bin at Congressional Aquarium.  That was the extent of the three small pieces of "live" I put in when I set up the tank and started the cycle.  I assumed they were the copepod eating ones because I saw pods or something small white and faster moving for a while, but nothing now, just these. 

 

I had teeny hydroids on the glass for a while which Tom predicted would disappear, and he was right.  They're all gone.

[surf&turf]

>>Thought you might like to know what Delbeek & Sprung (The Reef Aquarium, vol. 1) have to say about your flatworms:

"There are approximately 14 different non-parasitic forms that have been seen in aquariums...Some of these feed on small copepods, others feed on diatoms and others act as scavengers...The most commonly encountered flatworm in the reef aquarium are the small, semi-transparent, whitish ones belonging to the suborder Maricola. These are usually found in newly setup aquariums with live rock. They have a length of 5-10 mm with a rounded anterior end and fork-shaped rear end. Mainly active at night, they are usually found crawling along the glass or rock but they can swim short distances when disturbed. These small worms should not cause any undue alarm as they are actually quite helpful and will usually disappear within a few months as their food supply diminishes. If they do not, it could be that you are overfeeding the aquarium..."

 

 

Found this as well.

[AlanM]

Sheesh, I really need to get some books.  Most reef books are so expensive I'll have to ask for them for my birthday.

 

Mine are nowhere near 5-10mm long, though.  Max is 2mm.

 

>>Thought you might like to know what Delbeek & Sprung (The Reef Aquarium, vol. 1) have to say about your flatworms:

"There are approximately 14 different non-parasitic forms that have been seen in aquariums...Some of these feed on small copepods, others feed on diatoms and others act as scavengers...The most commonly encountered flatworm in the reef aquarium are the small, semi-transparent, whitish ones belonging to the suborder Maricola. These are usually found in newly setup aquariums with live rock. They have a length of 5-10 mm with a rounded anterior end and fork-shaped rear end. Mainly active at night, they are usually found crawling along the glass or rock but they can swim short distances when disturbed. These small worms should not cause any undue alarm as they are actually quite helpful and will usually disappear within a few months as their food supply diminishes. If they do not, it could be that you are overfeeding the aquarium..."

 

 

Found this as well.

[howaboutme]

 Basically I am using this period to learn how to keep parameters stable and in the correct ranges. Seems like as good a time as any to see how the system works and what affects what. There are correct ranges for alk, for instance, and carbonate is used up while cycling a tank, so it seems pretty appropriate to me to drop in buffer to keep the parameters correct regardless of fish in the tank.

 

I guess what I am saying is that during the cycle of a young tank (and by cycle, I don't mean the NH3, NO2 to 0 cycle. I mean the maturation process that could take months.) your numbers may fluctuate up and down. You can probably see this w/ your log from your controller. Study your logs to learn what you're tank is doing and why w/o adding anything first. I personally don't see a reason to be too concerned, especially since you have not added anything that can, in any significant way, consume trace elements. To me, interventions like dosing may be used when other, and traditionally proven, methods like water changes, skimming wet and, if you believe in the benefits, using refugiums have failed. It just seems like it's way too early to start chasing numbers...

 

But, I also know you've done your research so therefore you aren't doing anything because someone says it's okay or because a nicely packaged bottle of buffer says so. I'm looking forward to watching your tank mature.

 

With all of these hitchhikers, good or bad, and because you used Dr. Tims anyways, I wonder if it wasn't better to just start out w/ dry/base rock 100%. This way, you know what you put into your tank rather than being surprised and worrying about it later.

[AlanM]

I guess what I am saying is that during the cycle of a young tank (and by cycle, I don't mean the NH3, NO2 to 0 cycle. I mean the maturation process that could take months.) your numbers may fluctuate up and down. You can probably see this w/ your log from your controller. Study your logs to learn what you're tank is doing and why w/o adding anything first. I personally don't see a reason to be too concerned, especially since you have not added anything that can, in any significant way, consume trace elements. To me, interventions like dosing may be used when other, and traditionally proven, methods like water changes, skimming wet and, if you believe in the benefits, using refugiums have failed. It just seems like it's way too early to start chasing numbers...

 

But, I also know you've done your research so therefore you aren't doing anything because someone says it's okay or because a nicely packaged bottle of buffer says so. I'm looking forward to watching your tank mature.

 

With all of these hitchhikers, good or bad, and because you used Dr. Tims anyways, I wonder if it wasn't better to just start out w/ dry/base rock 100%. This way, you know what you put into your tank rather than being surprised and worrying about it later.

 

I get you.  You're probably right.  I'm actually marching along what zygote2k said should happen and am not looking forward to the cyano phase and will probably start asking how to get rid of cyano even though I know that's the next thing that happens.  8)

 

I was worried about having too little diversity in there with just Dr Tims.  I had already compromised on the diversity that I really wanted by not going with Tampa Bay Saltwater rock and sand.  I just couldn't afford that stuff.  So now I'm adding micro life in dribs and drabs from various sources.  So far that's a plastic sleeve of tisbe pods and green water from algagen, a few rocks from Congressional, some cheato from monkiboy with amphi and cope pods in it, zygote2k's huge fuge container and various pieces of sump rock from him, 3 turbo snails and conchs from QR, Richard at ERC gave me some of those black nassarius (or whatever they really are). 

 

Coral frags and fish will introduce pests anyway, even if I start from dry rock, so it probably won't make that big of a difference longterm, but I do wish I was seeing more pods than just these worms.

[YHSublime]

So now I'm adding micro life in dribs and drabs from various sources.  So far that's a plastic sleeve of tisbe pods and green water from algagen, a few rocks from Congressional, some cheato from monkiboy with amphi and cope pods in it, zygote2k's huge fuge container and various pieces of sump rock from him, 3 turbo snails and conchs from QR, Richard at ERC gave me some of those black nassarius (or whatever they really are). 

 

IMO this is the best way to do it. By adding all that diversity from healthy tanks, Robs entire old sandbed in your fuge, marcos macro, and your seeded rock, you may end up with better than what you would have gotten from Tampa Bay... JMO. I think you're doing it right, you've been so patient with the whole process, and it will pay off in the long run. It's like $1 today, or $10 next month, and all you have to do is wait....

 

 

Coral frags and fish will introduce pests anyway, even if I start from dry rock, so it probably won't make that big of a difference longterm, but I do wish I was seeing more pods than just these worms.

 

I wouldn't be so set on this idea. If you dip and QT all your corals, and QT and treat your fish appropriately, then no, I don't think you will introduce pests anyways. Talk to Marcos about this, I know he's got a strict regiment for all his corals and fish, and it looks like you're already looking into it. I think a lot of people worry about fish introducing problems, and tend to forget about corals. Just remember that you can QT corals as well (and some folks will tell you ALWAYS) remove corals from plugs. Your pod population will get there, that last thing you probably want to hear is "don't rush it," but.... well, seriously, don't   

[AlanM]

You're probably right.  My crop of fur can definitely be taken down quickly by the first herbivore I put in the tank, so I'm not so worried about it.

[lnevo]

Pods come and go. At this stage i really wouldn't worry about pods at all. If your parameters are good they will come. When you have a full ecosystem with enough detritus being made and different animals producing different things the pods will thrive. Its quite possible your tank is just not ready for them yet and you introduced some and they did their thing. I know your past the initial cycling but its still very soon for what you are hoping for. Are you still dosing ammonia? If so with the cuc you have in there now it should no longer be necessary and could quite easily be taking down those pods before the bacteria can get to it..thats just one theory though.

 

As far as alk and all those things, as someone mentioned before, you don't need that yet. Before you really start adding livestock you do a nice big WC and that will set your levels where you want for the most part.

 

It took my tank a year and a major rescaping before consumption overtook my WC regimen...

[bengeeee]

Just wanted to say I just read through your thread and think you are doing an awesome job.  I'm gearing up to start a revised build and will be taking a ton of advise from you and those who have posted in your thread. 

 

Thanks for sharing,

 

(Fellow Gburger....  Ben)

[AlanM]

Hi Ben, there are a bunch of us in the Gaithersburg, MV, Germantown area.  Off the top of my head there's swimmate, chucelli, roscoe's reefs, djplus1, flooddc, cliff puckstable, greenhornet, and probably some others I'm forgetting. 

 

I need to post some new pictures, but am avoiding it because there is a serious case of the green uglies going on in my tank at the moment from running full lights on an 8 hour cycle each day.  Plus I've been dropping in a zoa here and there and the only thing that seems to be doing really well is xenia, which should tell me something about what the tank is ready for.  The zoas are mostly closed most of the time.

 

So far my tank life consists of:

 

• 3 turbo snails which seem to do most of the work
• 2 fighting conchs which are growing algae, but still lumping around the tank eating something
• 8 nassarius snails (is what I started with.  I see one hermit wearing a suspiciously similar shell...)
• 15 blue leg hermits
• a small bunch of xenia
• a small bunch of green star polyps
• about 20 zoa polyps
• a carnivore crab and a million small feather dusters in the sump and maybe other stuff
• and lots and lots of what seem to be algae or copepod eating flatworms.  I am assuming at the moment that they're eating algae of some kind because I did an experiment where I scraped stripes in the glass to see what would happen.  The flatworms are all in the non-scraped part and no flatworms in the clean part.  Interesting.

[bengeeee]

We'll that's awesome that there are so many of us around.  Personally I have Miggs76 to thank for turning me onto this forum during a recent frag buy.  I've been in the hobby for years but don't really know many people locally that share my addiction to reefing.  Anyways, sorry to get OT I'll just sit back and admire for now.  Keep up the great work, I admire your patience and continued testing.  Those are always the most difficult parts of setting up a new tank for me.

Edited September 20, 2013 by bengeeee

[sachabballi reef]

Alan is addicted to the testing part lol aren't ya?

 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

 

 

[AlanM]

Alan is addicted to the testing part lol aren't ya?Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

I do enjoy the tests. You can see every one ive done on my tank history on aquaticlog.com

Edited September 20, 2013 by AlanM