LCDRDATA October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 In the last while I've had a number of pumps/powerheads die on me. Maybe they were at the end of their lifespan, but it's become frustrating. To top it off, tonight my main return pump (a Mag-Drive 9.5B) died. Taking stock, I wonder if there isn't a better way to do this. Leaving aside the powerheads in my DT solely for circulation, in my sump (which I believe is a 20 long, but I don't remember for certain offhand) are the following pumps: - Mag-Drive 9.5B main return (either 3/4" or 1" single line, I forget which) rated at 950 gph; - Cobalt maxi-jet 1200 feeding biopellet reactor, rated at 395 gph; - Sedra 3500 needle-wheel feeing ASM G-2(?) skimmer, rated clean at 350 gph but more likely ~ 120-150 effective; - Rio 800 RVT keeping my overflow running, rated at 211 gph; - and, in my main tank, a second Cobalt Maxi-Jet 1200 feeding my HOB 'fuge. So, all told I'm at a bit less than 1900 gph total "rated" flow. Assuming my main return has in fact given up the ghost, I need a replacement ASAP, and I'm out of spare pumps - I can run a trickle from the Rio but that seems to be it. After all that background/context, here's the question: Am I better off getting another Mag-Drive 9.5B (or close equivalent) and keeping everything else the same, OR would I be better off getting something with a higher flow and running one or more of the other feeds off of it as well? My sump is pretty crowded as is, so I don't have a ton of room for an expansive manifold, especially one likely to turn out as something that would do Rube Goldberg proud if I tried to DIY it. Which other feed(s) would be best to run in addition to my main return line, and what would be the best way to configure the mainifold(s)? Recommendations? HELP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallreef October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 Personally, id just replace the main pump with something rated a little higher...counting the gph from all of the sources does no good...thats not the flow in your tank...and unless you have alot of room theres really no way to do the manifold, even if you did the only things i would substitute would be the flow into your sump and over to your fuge if possible...but it doesnt sound like those would be possible even with a manifold (pictures may help since ive not seen your system) or the option of getting a larger sump if it could fit i have your stand could be an option and would give you the room to route extra PVC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 just replace the mag-drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 What size is the DT? If room is limited then I would just replace the main return pump and not try a manifold. If you had the room you could increase the main pump and tee off it to feed the fuge and the reactor. Can you run the fuge off the Rio 800? That would remove one powerhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 Just replace the Mag. Keep it simple. I tried the manifold deal and unless you have alot of room it looks like junk!!! You have lines going everywhere. I wish I had more room to do a manifold aswel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lazar October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 Whatever you do, I would trade out the mag drive for something more efficient and reliable. They're cheap, but you get what you pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 How long has the Mag worked for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basser9 October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 Do yourself a favor and look at a WAVELINE DC 5000/10000. These things are such a improvement over other pumps with a great price tp boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveS October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 If you can do a manifold, I would upgrade the pump and run as much off it as possible. Right now you have X number of pumps so even if they all had the same reliability, you have 4X probability of a failure somewhere. If you get one pump, problems will occur less frequently meaning less hassle. The main issue with this approach is that when that one pump fails, everything goes down. You address this by buying another identical unit as a standby. This is an added expense people often overlook. But now when something fails, the fix is simple and obvious. Just swap out the part and you are done. No scrambling to find a part to fix something before the fish die. I got this design principle from Sanjay. I have 2 identical pumps in use- one for my return, one for the closed loop. I also have a spare one in my closet. All the plumbing and unions in/out of the pumps are identical. The spare one also has the fittings already there. When a pump goes down, I swap it out. Takes me longer to get the pump to the fish room than actually do the fix. I also use the spare pump for maintenance. Basically I swap in the the spare for the dirty pump. Then I take my time cleaning the dirty one and once clean, it becomes the spare. So in summary, one bigger pump can mean: -less frequent failures to deal with -simplified problem solving when a failure does occur -easier maintenance process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lazar October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 I used the same principle as DaveS. I have two identical return pumps-one supplies the DT, and the other supplies the refugium and frag tank. Manifold valves normally keep the two paths separate, but if needed I can open and close valves so a single pump can run the whole system. I also have a third, backup pump on a shelf as a standby. Pump changes and maintenance is very easy this way. If I could figure out sketchup, I'd post a diagram :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve175 October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 Same here as Jon and Dave: I run 5 hammerheads at have 2 spares. If I blow a seal or freeze a pump, it takes 3 minutes to make the swap and then I can take my time doing the repair. Setting up a manifold with a single large pump is worth the time and trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integral9 October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 (edited) How did your mag die? Broken impeller? Do you know how to check for a broken impeller? sometimes it's not as obvious as a completely broken shaft. ie: (if the blades spin all the way around the shaft w/out locking and forcing the shaft to rotate, then it's broken. You can just buy a new impeller or two. If it's not that simple then, imo, the mag pumps (while typically very reliable) put out a lot of heat for the volume of water they push. So I would replace the Mag with a Water Blaster or other more efficient pump and get a couple of Koralia Evolution power heads for added water movement in the tank & redundancy should the mag fail again. How big is your tank? Also, I think you may have added up your flow incorrectly. From what I can tell, only the Mag9 was driving flow in the display? Skimmer & reactor & fuge pumps don't really count because they are not directly effecting the flow in the display portion of the tank. Also, you don't have to DIY a manifold / distributor. I got mine here: http://flexpvc.com/c...VC-Distributors my only complaint about the 1x4 is the end w/ 4 outlets has the outlets every close together so putting fittings on all the outlets directly after the distributor is tricky. Edited October 24, 2012 by Integral9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldReefer October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 AVAST sells the new line of Sicce pumps. I like them much better than mags. ( I have gone through lots of mags) Justin can get one out to you quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldReefer October 24, 2012 Share October 24, 2012 BTW I agree with the other posters that recommend a manifold. I will always go with a manifold and an external return like an Iwaki or a Blueline. They are incredibly reliable. I keep a spare used Blueline with duplicate plumbing connections Pre-connected and ready to go if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDRDATA October 24, 2012 Author Share October 24, 2012 I love all the help you can get from this site! What size is the DT? If room is limited then I would just replace the main return pump and not try a manifold. If you had the room you could increase the main pump and tee off it to feed the fuge and the reactor. Can you run the fuge off the Rio 800? That would remove one powerhead. My DT is 75 gallons - the sump is a bit crowded but there might be enough room if I can actually eliminate a pump or two. Unfortunately, I can't run the 'fuge off the Rio 800 - since it's a hang-on-back design, it would have 3-4' of head and that just isn't enough flow through the cheato to function effectively. How long has the Mag worked for you? In one sense I can't complain too much, because it came with the setup when I bought it in June of 2008 - so a little over four years for me, plus however long the original owner used it. Do yourself a favor and look at a WAVELINE DC 5000/10000. These things are such a improvement over other pumps with a great price tp boot. I'm not familiar with Waveline pumps - any suggestions on good local and/or online sourcing? Do you know what the flow for those two models would be? Same here as Jon and Dave: I run 5 hammerheads at have 2 spares. If I blow a seal or freeze a pump, it takes 3 minutes to make the swap and then I can take my time doing the repair. Setting up a manifold with a single large pump is worth the time and trouble. Replying to all three of you - your various sets of rationale is pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. I thought the reactor would be the easiest, then the fuge; I wasn't sure about the Rio or skimmer due to the venturi factor on each. Do you have a take on those? How did your mag die? Broken impeller? Do you know how to check for a broken impeller? sometimes it's not as obvious as a completely broken shaft. ie: (if the blades spin all the way around the shaft w/out locking and forcing the shaft to rotate, then it's broken. You can just buy a new impeller or two. If it's not that simple then, imo, the mag pumps (while typically very reliable) put out a lot of heat for the volume of water they push. So I would replace the Mag with a Water Blaster or other more efficient pump and get a couple of Koralia Evolution power heads for added water movement in the tank & redundancy should the mag fail again. As to how it died, I can't say. Essentially, I unplugged it last night while feeding my corals, and when I plugged it back in nothing happened - not only no flow, but no apparent vibration or other sign of attempting to operate. I swapped it back and forth with other outlets I knew worked, so that isn't it. I haven't had a chance to take it apart and check the impeller properly, as I was more concerned with restoring movement between the DT and sump. I've got a pair of the small JBJ powerheads and an MJ400 for in-tank for circulation; they were on a wavemaker but it died about a week ago of unknown causes. I've got them on a new intermittent setup but haven't had a chance to really see if that's working the way I want it too or not. I was under the apparent misapprehension that the mag-drives were fairly efficient; other than the Water Blaster, what would you say are the "other more efficient" pumps? How big is your tank? Also, I think you may have added up your flow incorrectly. From what I can tell, only the Mag9 was driving flow in the display? Skimmer & reactor & fuge pumps don't really count because they are not directly effecting the flow in the display portion of the tank. Tank size is above - 75 gallon. On flow numbers you're partially correct - the skimmer & reactor are entirely in-sump operations; however, the 'fuge pump and outlet are in the tank, so it does figure in the overall tank flow. Also, you don't have to DIY a manifold / distributor. I got mine here: http://flexpvc.com/c...VC-Distributorsmy only complaint about the 1x4 is the end w/ 4 outlets has the outlets every close together so putting fittings on all the outlets directly after the distributor is tricky. I will have to check that out - thanks for the tip. Going back up a bit (and something I should have asked in the first place) does anyone have a spare mag-drive 9.5B impeller I could use to diagnose what the actual problem is? If not, it sounds as though the consensus is to get a larger pump and run the reactor and perhaps the 'fuge off of it, assuming I can locate and/or make an appropriate manifold. Did I miss anything? Thanks all, and I remain open to suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDRDATA October 24, 2012 Author Share October 24, 2012 (edited) AVAST sells the new line of Sicce pumps. I like them much better than mags. (I have gone through lots of mags) Justin can get one out to you quick. BTW I agree with the other posters that recommend a manifold. I will always go with a manifold and an external return like an Iwaki or a Blueline. They are incredibly reliable. I keep a spare used Blueline with duplicate plumbing connections Pre-connected and ready to go if needed. Can you give a quick pros/cons of external vice internal pumps? I guess I'm not sure about how to run the plumbing, although it may be very simple & straightforward - I haven't to date give that option much thought. So - Waveline, Water Blaster, Sicce, Iwake, Blueline - with enough flow to run (at minimum) DT/reactor/'fuge and head losses through the manifold - does that about cover it? Edited October 24, 2012 by LCDRDATA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami October 25, 2012 Share October 25, 2012 You've not opened it to check the impeller yet? I think I'd do that. Check to see if the impeller is frozen to the shaft. A good cleaning (vinegar soak) may be what's needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDRDATA October 25, 2012 Author Share October 25, 2012 You've not opened it to check the impeller yet? I think I'd do that. Check to see if the impeller is frozen to the shaft. A good cleaning (vinegar soak) may be what's needed. I'm opening it up as we speak - normally I would have tried to do that first but, aside from the other factors previously mentioned, I had it apart for cleaning last weak and it was fine then, so it would seem strange for the impeller to freeze in that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDRDATA October 25, 2012 Author Share October 25, 2012 I'm opening it up as we speak - normally I would have tried to do that first but, aside from the other factors previously mentioned, I had it apart for cleaning last weak and it was fine then, so it would seem strange for the impeller to freeze in that time. Well, I don't know if it was age or some other factor, but since I had it apart a week ago two things appear to have happened: 1) the ceramic shaft broke, which apparently allowed the pump to keep running but just slightly off-center, so that 2) one side of the recess in the pump cover/faceplate wore such that the impeller binds. Now I just have to decide whether to replace those two items or get a bigger pump & set up a manifold. ~$40-$50 vs. $200+ ought to be an easy decision... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind October 25, 2012 Share October 25, 2012 I would go the $50 route. Where is the Rio 800 located? I thought it was in your DT and was used to keep the air bubbles out of the overflow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PotomacBoater October 25, 2012 Share October 25, 2012 When my Mag 12 went down I found this ... The volute needed to be replaced I found a cheap replacement ... http://www.marineandreef.com/Volute_for_Pond_Mag_and_Mag_Drive_12_18_p/rdf12741.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integral9 October 25, 2012 Share October 25, 2012 Well, I don't know if it was age or some other factor, but since I had it apart a week ago two things appear to have happened: 1) the ceramic shaft broke, which apparently allowed the pump to keep running but just slightly off-center, so that 2) one side of the recess in the pump cover/faceplate wore such that the impeller binds. Now I just have to decide whether to replace those two items or get a bigger pump & set up a manifold. ~$40-$50 vs. $200+ ought to be an easy decision... Personally I'd get the volute & impeller and use the money you would have spent on a new pump to buy a pair of Koralia Evolution 750s. The mag 9.5 is only going to push about 700gph at 4ft of head, less with more head pressure. Then I'd save up for a nice external pump and take my time planning out how to redo the plumbing for a more efficient setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDRDATA October 26, 2012 Author Share October 26, 2012 I would go the $50 route. Where is the Rio 800 located? I thought it was in your DT and was used to keep the air bubbles out of the overflow. The Rio is down in my sump - otherwise I'd be putting micro-bubbles into my DT all the time. When my Mag 12 went down I found this ... The volute needed to be replaced I found a cheap replacement ... http://www.marineandreef.com/Volute_for_Pond_Mag_and_Mag_Drive_12_18_p/rdf12741.htm Mine hadn't worn all the way through a side yet, but it was well on its way. Personally I'd get the volute & impeller and use the money you would have spent on a new pump to buy a pair of Koralia Evolution 750s. The mag 9.5 is only going to push about 700gph at 4ft of head, less with more head pressure. Then I'd save up for a nice external pump and take my time planning out how to redo the plumbing for a more efficient setup. I came to about the same conclusion y'all did, and this morning I ordered the impeller and new volute. I also ordered a diverter to take one line off of the outlet if I want; I think I'll plumb it into the HOB 'fuge to I get some "extra" circulation out of it (what goes in must come out). The rest I think I can figure out later, although I'm leaning toward one of the Waveline DC5000s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind October 26, 2012 Share October 26, 2012 The Rio is down in my sump - otherwise I'd be putting micro-bubbles into my DT all the time. Does the water continue to siphon down to the sump during power outages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind October 26, 2012 Share October 26, 2012 This pump is also missing the rubber flapper near the exit hole. The pump doesn't start or run as well with that missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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