Tank Crashing :( Is this 100% Silicone reef safe?

[Fishie]

sorry Curtis ...that blows...hopefully the condition can be reversed and you dont loose much..

[Curtis Scott]

sorry Curtis ...that blows...hopefully the condition can be reversed and you dont loose much..

 

Thank you for your condolences. I am thinking that about the softies now. Unfortunately, I don't think SPS will come back once it is bright white like this. I plan to leave corals recovering as they are in the tank for now and give them about 3-4 weeks to see if anything turns around. The ones that didn't make will become rock rubble I guess.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Curtis Scott

[Origami]

Thank you for your condolences. I am thinking that about the softies now. Unfortunately, I don't think SPS will come back once it is bright white like this. I plan to leave corals recovering as they are in the tank for now and give them about 3-4 weeks to see if anything turns around. The ones that didn't make will become rock rubble I guess.

It's awful when you first see the stark white skeletons in the tank like that. When mine crashed a year ago (I attribute it to over-aggressive and careless killing off of a bunch of pest palys coupled with a major tank move that ultimately poisoned the tank), that's what I was faced with. My heart just dropped into my gut. Quite some time later, I took a hammer to the dead skeletons while they were still in the tank, bleached them, and now they await the next recharge of my calcium reactor. On the bright side, some tips of maybe 10% of the colonies did survive and I was able to restart some corals from those. So, as long a things stabilize, give it a few weeks before beginning the recycling effort.

[nbgen12]

Can't find much data on that product. It is 100% silicone with no mildew/mold additives. Does it smell like vinegar when it's just out of the tube? If so, you're likely OK if you allowed sufficient time for it to cure completely.

 

I'm not sure about the smell, because I used everything I had bought and have none left laying around. I had it cure for about 48 hours or so. I want to assume everything is OK since I've used it since day 1 on this tank, and the only coral I've lost is from an alk nuking. It's just nice to get a little reassurance before I sit down and assume everything is good.

[Curtis Scott]

Encase I forgot to mention, I want to say how grateful I am to everyone for your condolences and advice! I have learned so much and continue to learn a lot from WAMAS and it's members.

 

This is a huge set back for me as some of the colonies I've grown out for over a couple years. Largest for me atleast :|

 

Love of the hobby will keep me in it. No matter what dies or will die, I'll learn from what I did wrong and rebuild.

 

Once my tank is back to being healthy (2 months+) I might be tempted to ask for some donation frags if any members have any.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kevin Garrison]

If you've got a pump to run it, I have a large external chamber I use for running carbon when I need it. I'm in Centreville as well, you are welcome to use it. Just need a new mesh sleeve for the carbon, I've run entire 30oz containers of carbon in this filter before Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

 

Reason I say if you have a pump, is because the pump I was using died.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Kevin Garrison

[zygote2k]

From that link-

 

Ok, this conversation or debate, has been rehashed it seems, almost, since the beginning of time. It is never resolved, and the sound sensible advice, that has been given, is generally ignored, or even further debated.

 

Is Silicone II toxic? Largely it is an unknown. Most likely, once cured, it is not anymore toxic than any other silicone.

 

It is however, a neutral cure or solvent based product. It releases an ammonia odor. It is very easy to spot this, with similar products, using a simple sniff test.

 

Silicone I, on the other hand, is an acetoxy cure product. It releases an acetic acid odor (vinegar.) It is very easy to spot this, with similar products, using a simple sniff test.

 

Since the beginning of time, the recommendation (regardless of the debates, and the "oh it will be fines",) for silicone in an aquarium application has been:

 

100% Silicone (most are)

Acetoxy Cure (some are some aren't)

FDA Approved for food contact

 

Why the FDA approval? Because it eliminates the possibility, (either real or imagined, depending on the particular product,) that the silicone will cause a problem in the tank. It is not that there are no products out there, that are NOT FDA approved, that are safe. It simply takes the guess work out of it. In this manner, the "mass kill-off" will not be related to the silicone, in any way other than insufficient cure time. Because any way you slice it, if it is not FULLY cured, it will kill your tank FDA approved or not. Allowing a week or more cure time eliminates even this variable.

 

Did the silicone kill off this particular tank? It is an unknown, could it have? Yes, considering the application, it is quite possible that it did not cure--especially in the center of the background. Or it could have been, since the tank should have been taken down, that the shock, when restarted, took out the tank. Or maybe, Silicone II is just toxic from the word go cured or not. But anecdotal information exists supporting BOTH sides of the question, so again it is an unknown.

 

Also,the labels on both GE I AND II, say not for use in aquariums, however, IIRC, the GE I label (or product information) now shows FDA approval. Be that as it may, the recommendation remains unchanged.

 

100% Silicone

Acetoxy Cure

FDA Approved ......

 

This eliminates the questions, and then there is only the question of using the right product for the application. No longer is it needed to ask "is this silicone safe in my tank" and variations thereof. Read the LABEL. Read the product information, you have to look for it sometimes. The MSDS does not tell you what you need to know. The tank builders will not tell you, the tank manufacturers will not tell you. Though, I do have inside information on that, and have posted it many many times. Sometimes the silicone manufacturer will tell you, sometimes they will not. However, if you take the basic advice, there is not going to be any questions, other than is Product A strong enough for the application, or would Product B, considering the application, be a better choice.

 

 

The silicone might be the issue, but it could also be something else.

How often do you test and record the results? If you have good records, or a data log from a controller, you might be able to pinpoint a different culprit.

It could be pure coincidence with the silicone.

Edited September 18, 2012 by zygote2k

[Origami]

^^BTW, I read that thread that Rob's quoting there. That's the best, most informative post (I thought) in the whole thread.

[flowerseller]

Sorry to hear of this issue,

 

I'd be interested to hear your alk, Ca and copper levels?

[Curtis Scott]

Sorry to hear of this issue,

 

I'd be interested to hear your alk, Ca and copper levels?

 

Alk is 8.9dhk

Cal is ~450pmm

Copper - I didn't know I should be testing for this. What's the best way to test for this?

 

If copper is high, hopefully the carbon will pull this out of the tank.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Curtis Scott

[Origami]

Carbon won't pull out copper. A polyfilter will, though. Is there any reason at all to suspect you have copper contamination, Curtis? To measure, you'll have to get a copper test kit.

[Curtis Scott]

Carbon won't pull out copper. A polyfilter will, though. Is there any reason at all to suspect you have copper contamination, Curtis? To measure, you'll have to get a copper test kit.

 

flowerseller said he was interested to see what my copper level is.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Curtis Scott

[flowerseller]

flowerseller said he was interested to see what my copper level is.

 

I mentioned copper because what you are describing is also like a classic copper meltdown although you make no mention of fish. Like Tom questioned, if you are certain there is no chance to have any copper, don't waste the money.

In regards to your silicone choice to complete this project;

 

I believe even cured, any silicone that has mold inhibitors is going to cause a problem. My reasoning is rather simple and yet extremely unscientific.

If it's able to inhibit mold after curing, or drying if you will, it's still releasing something in order to accomplish this.

FYI,

I'm not opposed to 100% w/c if the water is prepared ahead, made compatible, and done as a 100% drain and refill. I've left everything in place, including the fish. This is the only way to neutralize a true full kalk over dose as multiple water changes are just about useless in that scenario.

While this is considered a rather drastic measure, and I give plenty of thought before I make a decision to do so, it might be a possible solution your case if you unhook the new sump first.

[treesprite]

I used a GE silicone for a piece of glass in my sump about a month ago, but I can't remember which one it is. I have not seen any adverse effects. I used it on plumbing too, but that stuff doesn't come into any contact with the tank water so it wouldn't matter.

[Origami]

I've used GE1, but this is about using GE2.

[Curtis Scott]

I do have a couple fish in the tank (purple tang and flame angel) they have been unaffected so far and still look very healthy. Good to hear I could do a 100% wc, but I'm afraid to do that big of a wc. My plan is to try to get the system stabilized through many very large water changes back to back. The tank is 75g with a 20g sump, so with all the water displacement I am estimating about 70-75g of salt water in the system. Since I'm only able to make 30g at a time, I plan to do 30g water changes every 3 days for the next 2-3 weeks or until I see improvements in the corals. During this time I'm running BRS PREMIUM ROX 0.8 AQUARIUM CARBON as directed on the container, inside a two little fishes phosphate reactor. Since I have plenty of carbon and don't really use it anymore, I'm considering changing the carbon out too during every wc. Then once I get the new sump created and cured, I'll which them out and be able to correctly run a poly filter.

 

The old sump that I used the Silicone II to build has been removed and replaced with a temporary 20g long. I'm happy to find out with some adjustments to my plumbing I will be able to recreate the same sump inside a 20g long as I recreated in the 30g. This is great news for me! Today I'm headed out to purchase another 20g long tank from Petco, some acrylic and aquarium safe silicone to recreate the sump.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Curtis Scott

[Coral Hind]

This is one of those topics that always pops up every couple of months on one forum or another, usually a bunch of hear say with no real facts. I have always felt that the fish or coral deaths were simply caused by other factors or changes going on with the tank and not that the silicone was to blame. I have used both GE I and GE II with no issues but they were the old GE made types.

 

A few years ago GE stopped making the GE line of sealants and sold out to Momentive who took over the line with GE's name being licensed for use on the product. From what I've read, when Momentive took over the line they added the Bio-Seal label to both GE I and GE II. So those thinking that GE I is better than GE II seem to be wrong, they both now have it added. I was told back when GE was runnning it that bioseal was a sales gimmick and the HMDS compound was already being added to it. It acted as a bonding agent and a cure agent that allows the silicone to cure smoothly without creating small surface defects that might later allow mold to grow. I just sent an email to Momentive asking about the bio-seal additive. I'll share the reply once I get one back.

 

Carbon won't pull out copper. A polyfilter will, though. Is there any reason at all to suspect you have copper contamination, Curtis? To measure, you'll have to get a copper test kit.

Some copper meds like Cupramine are removable with carbon, at least the directions say to use carbon.

[Origami]

The problem with answering (by typing) on a phone, I guess, is the incompleteness. Copper bound to organics (chelated copper) will be picked up by carbon. Largely, this is not the copper that is immediately toxic (it may be toxic if ingested in large amounts). It's the free copper (Cu++) that would be the problem. Free copper is shown to be picked up by activated carbon in freshwater, but I'm unaware that there's evidence that free copper is picked up by carbon in marine environments, though I know there's a lot of stuff out there that people are writing about. (Another internet legend?) Cupramine and other copper-meds are often chelated or complexed with other molecules and it's this complex that is shown to be removed by the carbon.

 

This is a good post on RC on the subject:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2104096

 

BTW, RHF would recommend using Cuprisorb rather than a polyfilter for adsorbing copper in critical situations. Read the thread to find out why.

[Curtis Scott]

It was a slow recovery, I thought I would follow up with some photos from the aftermath and updates.

 

I really wish I would have taken more pictures of my tank before this happened, or better yet did my research before using that product anywhere near my tank. All my SPS corals ended up with RTN and full loss except for my well established GARF Purple Bonsai, Jedi Mind Tricks Monti and a Cali Blue Tort. I think one of the worst to see go was my Hawkins Echinata that I had grown out for over a couple years from a small frag.

 

Photos of the aftermath: http://wamas.org/for...september-2012/

 

Recovering and more recent photos: http://wamas.org/for...k-january-2013/

 

Last Friday I purchased a good CUC and they are starting to help me get a handle on the cyno I'm still fighting, along with a bio pellet reactor I set up a few weeks ago!

Edited January 30, 2013 by Curtis Scott

[Coral Hind]

Nice come back!

[surf&turf]

Nice come back!

 

+1 Lookin good!!

[SaltLife]

Coral hind did you ever get a response back about the bioseal?

[Curtis Scott]

Nice come back!

 

Thanks! It's getting better every week. I plan on testing everything today and doing another large WC sometime this week before Sunday.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Curtis Scott

[treesprite]

DAP makes a silicone that specifically says for aquarium use on it. I get it from the adhesives section at Lowes.

[Sharkey18]

Wow, that first set of pics are hard to look at, but the comeback is looking great! Nice job.