Lighting and Skimmer help

[MBVette]

Just had my meeting with the insurance adjuster and she pretty much gave me free reign to build what I want; but I need to get her the info on pricing asap. So I need to make a decision shortly.

 

So for lighting, I am trying to decide AI Sol vs Radions. Radions are just so darn expensive, is it really worth it over the Sols? I would imagine I will need 3 radions or 4-5 sols?

 

Then I really need help on protein skimmers. I dont know much about different skimmers; but want to keep the price under say 1200 for a new one. What are my options and whats the difference between a $500 unit and a $1500 one?

 

Thanks

Edited July 6, 2012 by MBVette

[epleeds]

From what I've read that radions are much better than AI. And if the insurance is paying go with radion. As for a skimmer I am partial towards ATB or bubble king or deltec

Edited July 6, 2012 by epleeds

[LCDRDATA]

Just had my meeting with the insurance adjuster and she pretty much gave me free reign to build what I want; but I need to get her the info on pricing asap. So I need to make a decision shortly.

 

So for lighting, I am trying to decide AI Sol vs Radions. Radions are just so darn expensive, is it really worth it over the Sols? I would imagine I will need 3 radions or 4-5 sols?

 

Then I really need help on protein skimmers. I dont know much about different skimmers; but want to keep the price under say 1200 for a new one. What are my options and whats the difference between a $500 unit and a $1500 one?

 

Thanks

I haven't gone to LEDs yet; as a general principal, though, I think "you get what you pay for" is generally true only to a point, and I suspect the Radions may be beyond that point. I also know Hellolights.com recently had the AIs on sale, although that may not still be the case. As far as skimmers go, I don't presume to be an expert, but some time back the speaker at one of the WAMAS meetings discussed some academic research on skimmers that, if memory serves, essentially concluded that holding other factors constant there wasn't a significant difference between them -- at least the ones they tested. So it would seem that the difference between a $500 unit and a $1500 unit is most likely $1000 and perhaps bells & whistles.

 

Doing a quick look elsewhere online I found a Bubble Magus at BRS, a Reef Octopus Extreme at Marine Depot and a CS2 'Black Pearl' at Avast Marine Works that are all well short of your $1200 target and would seem to be more than capable of handling your tank. I don't have any personal experience with any of these, so take this for what it's worth, but at least the first two have 5-Star customer reviews on the respective websites. Good luck again!

[steveoutlaw]

Go with the CS-2. Best bang for the buck and local customer service. Since insurance is paying, get the big ol skimmate locker and swabbie.

Edited July 6, 2012 by steveoutlaw

[zoltarblue]

For my 2 cents I have been running the AI SOL Blues for about a year now and I have tremendous growth in everything. I highly recommend them.

[MBVette]

For my 2 cents I have been running the AI SOL Blues for about a year now and I have tremendous growth in everything. I highly recommend them.

 

My only thing with the AI Sol blues is that I need at least 4 lights and possibly 5 to go over the 6' tank. If I got to where I need 5 it is the same price as the radions I will need. That is where I am torn on it; and I am leaning towards radions b/c I can tie the lights into the powerheads then.

[MBVette]

So I have been reading a ton on protein skimmers and I am not really getting anywhere. but do any of you guys have experience with the bubble king supermarin line?

 

for around 1500 I can get a supermarin 200 whch they say is rated for 100-400 gallons. Being that I will be in the 300 gallon range and I am not planning on going with a lot of SPS would this work for me? Everyting I read seems to say the BK's are the top of the line skimmers, but I also dont want to get something on the small side of what I will need. So any opinions on this would be great.

 

Thanks

[zygote2k]

for a big skimmer, go with the SRO or AVAST CS3. Both are large with the SRO being 30% bigger in size and needs to be planned out accordingly for space- prob not an under tank skimmer. I use both of these skimmers on a 265 and a 500.

As far as lights are concerned, go with one module every 2'. For ease of use, go with Radeons because they will easily sync with MP40's.

Do it right the first time especially if the insurance is paying for it.

[steveoutlaw]

Ok, to answer your question......yes, Bubbleking is a top of the line skimmer. I can't comment on the others, but I would imaging that the CS-3 would be a great choice and for less money. I can't harp on the local customer service enough. I had a Deltec and now have an H&S which are both top of the line skimmers. However, their customer service sucks and there are time I've wished I hadn't gone that route.

[ErikS]

Lights & skimmers - are there topics with less objective sentiments?

 

The heart of any skimmer is the pump. There more than a couple that have good pumps without the high price tag. Newer Sicce pumps are reputed to have good performance. There are those that also use the old standard Eheim - durable as the day is long. A couple of the Eden pumps (Skimz) have issues, some models (smaller pumps) do not. Bubble blaster pumps have been pretty good.

 

Lots of choices in the budget arena w/ decent pumps - we're a bit far off from the days where we had "good pumps & high price tag" or "rubbish pumps & low price tag".

 

Lights? I won't get into the difference between forum statements & hard data (i.e. Sanjay's tests). I'd say for 6' you'd need 4.....depending on livestock you could swap some of the optics for 70* to increase the spread. Might be the same overall cost as the Radions but didn't I read the tank is 30" deep? No way in heck the radions will reach, you'd need optics = higher cost. It would be nice to tie the pumps to the lights but the AIs do come with a pretty slick little controller.

[Ryan S]

What size is the new tank going to be?

 

If it's tall (30") you're going to want the new TIR lenses for the radions. They are meant for taller tanks.

 

As for quantity, you'd want 2 per 2 feet of tank. So if you have a 6 foot tank, you'd want 6, not 3. you'd run them like this: = = = The only 6 foot tank that you might be able to get by w/ 3 radions is a 125g non-sps heavy tank (b/c it's only 18" wide).

 

As for radions vs AI Sols, go with Radions. Many more features, more channels, completely modular, backed by amazing customer service, awesome software, wireless programming (over the internet) and connection to your MP40 pumps and a battery backup, etc, etc. Equivalence-wise, 1 radion = 2 AI sols. So if you'd need 6 radions, you'd want 12 AI sols for the same setup.

[ErikS]

............ 1 radion = 2 AI sols. So if you'd need 6 radions, you'd want 12 AI sols for the same setup.

Really most of the time the fan-boy rubbish is kind of funny but when you put it forth as if it's some sort of fact that's a bit different - it's misleading, like those manure infomercials.

 

Sanjay's Radion test

 

Sanjay's AI Tests

 

Which one is 2x the other again? And spare everyone the anecdotal "but goober mcfool used them and his coral grew 12' in a year". Adding optics will drop the output - regardless of physics defying magic claims by Ecotech.

 

Both have pros & cons, depends on the application.

Edited July 9, 2012 by ErikS

[Ryan S]

There is much more than PAR when comparing the two units. Like spectrum and more color channels for starters.

 

I personally think 1 radion > 2 AI sols. In terms of cost, coverage, craftsmanship, capability, you name it.

 

A lot more WAMAS members have ditched AI sols than Radions. So I guess I'm not the only fanboy.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Ryan S

[hypertech]

So I have been reading a ton on protein skimmers and I am not really getting anywhere. but do any of you guys have experience with the bubble king supermarin line?

 

for around 1500 I can get a supermarin 200 whch they say is rated for 100-400 gallons. Being that I will be in the 300 gallon range and I am not planning on going with a lot of SPS would this work for me? Everyting I read seems to say the BK's are the top of the line skimmers, but I also dont want to get something on the small side of what I will need. So any opinions on this would be great.

 

Thanks

 

Another good option is the Vertex alpha cone line. IMHO, most of what makes the BK better is the Red Dragon pump. The fit an finish on the CNC parts is also nice but not required. I had one and never could get comfortable with the take apart collection cup. I kept thinking if I bumped it at all on the way to the sink, I'd have all the stink on the floor and my days would be numbered. Its an easy cleaning design but I didn't like it.

 

Anyway, with the alpha cone, you get the Red Dragon pump and you also get a good quality skimmer body.

[MBVette]

What size is the new tank going to be?

 

If it's tall (30") you're going to want the new TIR lenses for the radions. They are meant for taller tanks.

 

As for quantity, you'd want 2 per 2 feet of tank. So if you have a 6 foot tank, you'd want 6, not 3. you'd run them like this: = = = The only 6 foot tank that you might be able to get by w/ 3 radions is a 125g non-sps heavy tank (b/c it's only 18" wide).

 

As for radions vs AI Sols, go with Radions. Many more features, more channels, completely modular, backed by amazing customer service, awesome software, wireless programming (over the internet) and connection to your MP40 pumps and a battery backup, etc, etc. Equivalence-wise, 1 radion = 2 AI sols. So if you'd need 6 radions, you'd want 12 AI sols for the same setup.

Ryan,

 

That just seems like a lot of lights. From what I have read all I would need is 3 radions for a 72x24'30h tank, especially since I will be doing mostly softies and lps. I have not had anyone recommend anything close to 6 lights.

[Ryan S]

Ryan,

 

That just seems like a lot of lights. From what I have read all I would need is 3 radions for a 72x24'30h tank, especially since I will be doing mostly softies and lps. I have not had anyone recommend anything close to 6 lights.

 

You should be fine with 3 for softies and lps. If you ever go heavy sps, you'll likely consider 6 though. The light you'll be getting at the edges of the 24" width will be minimal at best - and you will have spotlighting from the sides at the recommended height of 8" to prove it. I would definitely get the new lenses, but I am not sure on their release date (maybe ecotech would sell you the units directly with them installed right now). They will allow you to get better penetration at the bottom (especially if you have a lot of LPS down there on the sand bed).

Edited July 9, 2012 by Ryan S

[MBVette]

Are the new lenses an add on? I am not seeing anything on their site about new lenses.

[Ryan S]

Mr SWT already has them on his tank.

 

Here is more info on them:

http://reefbuilders.com/2012/05/16/tir-lens-radion-ecotech/

 

Not sure if ecotech will sell them to you directly yet. You'd have to call and ask.

 

An alternative would be to email Mark (Mr SWT) and see if he can sell them to you. He is an ecotech distributor and can often times sell items like the lenses before the public has access to them.

[chucelli]

There is much more than PAR when comparing the two units. Like spectrum and more color channels for starters.

 

I personally think 1 radion > 2 AI sols.

 

 

If anything it is the other way around, since the added colors of the Radions don't do anything for most if not all organisms utilizing zooxanthellae for photosynthesis.

 

-Robert

[Ryan S]

If anything it is the other way around, since the added colors of the Radions don't do anything for most if not all organisms utilizing zooxanthellae for photosynthesis.

 

-Robert

 

Do you really think Ecotech would've spent thousands on R & D for radions if the red and green lights were useless? Do you think AI would be including them in their new Vega as well? I mean, Sanjay concluded the red at least is almost identical from the radion spectrum to the spectrum of a Ushio 400w 14k MH bulb or a Radium 400w 20k MH bulb.

 

I think each light serves a purpose. Red or Green might not increase the speed at which an SPS piece grows, but I would guess they serve a purpose. Maybe they make the red and green corals look better. Or make the tank look better (warmer?) to the viewer's eyes. Does the sun only have white and blue in it's spectrum? And no green or red? I am no expert, but I believe the ultimate LED fixture, when it's made, will have MORE color channels, not less. Just like the sun. blue green yellow white red UV purple, you name it. For the most complete, customizable, and ideal reef lighting?

[hlem]

Are there r/d articles somewhere I can read up on. I'm planning a new DIY led soon and wanted to see if it's worth spending on the red/green/uv.

[chucelli]

Do you really think Ecotech would've spent thousands on R & D for radions if the red and green lights were useless?

 

I don't think anything was spent into researching whether the extra colors are a benefit to corals. Any good business person keeping tabs on the reefing community would have seen that the general public (however uninformed) are demanding "missing" colors so far missing from these second generation DIY and commerical builds. Including colors such as red and green makes them stand out from the rest of the pack.

Keep in mind, this is the not the first time these colors were utilized. The first commercial LED system used green as well as red. The second generation of LED units such as the first DIY units, as well as the first AI units have proven that those colors are not necessary to sustain coral growth.

 

Do you think AI would be including them in their new Vega as well?

 

again, in order to compete with the current pack leader (Ecotech), it makes sense to offer consumers what they want regardless of efficacy.

 

I mean, Sanjay concluded the red at least is almost identical from the radion spectrum to the spectrum of a Ushio 400w 14k MH bulb or a Radium 400w 20k MH bulb.

 

I think it is a mistake for LED technology to strive to replace metal halide. It is in my opinion capable of so much more. I don't think the red spectrum was designed to be included into those MH bulbs, but more of an expected side-effect inherent to metal halide technology.

 

I think each light serves a purpose. Red or Green might not increase the speed at which an SPS piece grows, but I would guess they serve a purpose. Maybe they make the red and green corals look better. Or make the tank look better (warmer?) to the viewer's eyes. Does the sun only have white and blue in it's spectrum? And no green or red? I am no expert, but I believe the ultimate LED fixture, when it's made, will have MORE color channels, not less. Just like the sun. blue green yellow white red UV purple, you name it. For the most complete, customizable, and ideal reef lighting?

 

That is the only valid argument thus far for the inclusion of these extraneous colors. However, aesthetics are subjective and as such are open to endless debates because everyone has a different opinion. For example, I don't agree that light quality from a Radion is more "sun like" than any other LED fixture simply due to the added colors. Also, I'm not sure if someone created something that simulates sunlight exactly, that it would necessarily be appealing. If you see what these corals look like while diving you will see how relatively bland they look under natural sunlight when compared to your average reef tank lighting.

 

"ultimate" has different meanings to different people. If Ecotech or any other company for that matter can create a lighting system that the majority of people consider "unltimate" then they have succeeded. As consumers, it is our responsibility to be as informed as possible and not be fooled by manufacture marketing.

 

-Robert