Acrylic Questions

[BWA_84]

Hi, Guys

 

I am going to build a custom aquarium and I have a few questions.

 

1. Does anyone know where I can buy acrylic from in the DMV area?

2. Do you guys think I can get by with just 1/2 inch acrylic with these dimensions 20x66x26 (HxLxW)

3. If anyone is willing to give me some personal advice so I dont mess this up I would greatly apprceiate it. Just let me know and we can talk over email

Edited March 30, 2012 by BWA_84

[bcoop78]

I would recommend doing a few smaller projects with acrylic before building a tank. There really is a LOT to it. A simple Internet search will find you several suppliers in the area- make sure you use "cell-cast" acrylic. Width and depth do not play much of a factor against material thickness. Height however does, and 1/2" acrylic is good for the height you mentioned. Euro-bracing will also help with bowing. If you do not already know, the materials are expensive- especially 1/2". I wish you luck, and if/when you do decide to build, please post pics so we can all follow!

 

Good Luck!

[Chad]

Check with Avast, you can probably purchase through them (and maybe get some friendly advice as well).

[ErikS]

I would recommend doing a few smaller projects with acrylic before building a tank..............

I'd have to agree. Your skill set will make the difference. It's not all that tough to work with acrylic..........however.....it does take a bit of experience to get the feel for it. Example - the solvent reacts differently depending on the weather (humidity).....with a bit of experience you can tell it's going fast & I need to move along or it's going slow, give it more time. It also (in some areas) requires a fair bit of precision, especially with the edges to be joined. If you've done wood working - a finished edge for joining wood ain't even close for acrylic.

 

It's not all that hard, it's just easier if you've built a few pieces & feel more comfortable.

 

Given the cost of time & materials you might check with Jeff (NAGA) & see what a tank that size costs to have built???

 

You can find a wealth of information in the RC thread, search it.....pretty sure it has a thickness calculator -

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1056956

Edited April 18, 2012 by ErikS

[ArtFully Acrylic (Adam B)]

I'll drop in and give my two cents here...

 

First off, I couldn't agree more with others about practicing with smaller projects first. There is certainly an "Art" to the fabrication process (herego my company name ArtFully Acrylic). If you don't practice a good bit first you will likely find that the errors that happen in your build will end up costing you just as much if not more than having it built for you. With some advance practice you can certainly be successful though. Just don't do a tank that size by yourself expecting to save money. If doing yourself make sure its because you just want to enjoy the experience vs save money. Even minus the errors, taking the appropriate time for a first time big build will cost a good bit of "sweat equity".

 

Even after a good bit of practice with smaller stuff my first few tanks of that size easily took up 12-15 hours of total time to go through the whole process and it won't be just a weekend project for you. At this point I can get them done with less time, but its still a very involved meticulous process.

 

Acrylic work is a lot like painting a car...its 90% prep and 10% construction. Welding all of the seams takes very little time at all. Its machining the pieces to good weldable edges and ensuring everything is square and very accurate that takes the most time.

 

Make sure you have a GOOD router and router table (not the $150 special designed for wood at home depot). If you don't then at least have someone else machine the pieces for you.

 

As for suppliers, you can check out Piedmont Plastics in Elkridge, MD. Call and talk to Tom and tell him Adam from ArtFully Acrylic referred you if you decide to give it a go alone.

 

Use good quality acrylic from known sources ONLY. If its not MADE in the US or Mexico stay away. Stick with Cell Cast and stick with well recognized brands. What I generally use is Plexiglas G. Spartech Polycast is the best out there in my opinion (it also uses IMPERIAL measurement vs METRIC so .25 is actually .25 not .236 or .220), but it's not generally available local and its expensive as he**. Plexiglas G is a very close second. If going with Piedmont you will find they carry that as well as a material they refer to as CGM. Their CGM material is made in the same Mexico plant as Plexiglas G, by Plexiglas. I use it periodically as well when customers want to keep costs down.

 

Your thought to use 1/2" is perfectly fine for 20" height and would even give you a little room for slightly messy joints and still hold up well. In my builds I generally recommend 1/2" from 18-24" heights unless a customer wants their tank "robust" then we can go even thicker...DEFINITELY thicker if going rimless. I have built tanks this size with 3/8" before when customers are looking for a less expensive build, but your seams have to be good and the bracing has to be wider, thereby decreasing the size of the top cutouts for access. Many mainstream companies such as Seaclear and TruVu would actually use 1/4" acrylic for this and even bigger builds, but this IS NOT recommended...it results in far far too much bowing and eventual crazing and potential seam failure down the line.

 

The only thing I see with your dimensions that you could do, unless need them specifically that exact, is add an inch or two to the height and length. It won't cost you anymore due to the way your current sheet optimization is going. With your current setup on CGM material (explained below) the sheets are 48x96 and you end up with a few inches left on one sheet and a good 1/3 of an unused sheet on the 2nd. With Plexiglas G material the sheets are 50x99 so you have even a little more to play with. I use an optimization program to maximize my yields per sheet, but you can play with it a bit on graph paper to maximize yours as well. Just remember to factor an add'l 1/4" to all dimensions for machining and don't forget to factor for the blade kerf when cutting the sheets.

 

With 1/2" acrylic you will likely want to do the top with a 4" eurobrace and two 5" centerbraces. This will yield you 3 cutouts of 18x16 which should handle most of your access needs for some pretty good sized rock as you setup your aquascaping. You could get by with smaller dimensions on the bracing and even get by with only one centerbrace (though it would need to be wider) if your lighting requirements require it. These dimensions though will greatly aid in minimizing your future bowing (bowing usually is at its settling point by 12-14 weeks from first fill) which I find even more imperative with saltwater setups. Also, notice I only mentioned eurobracing...don't go with just strips for bracing. It's not worth it...especially for an amateur build. It only saves you about 10-15% on material costs, isn't nearly as strong as a one piece top, and doesn't look as good either.

 

Think that covers most of it. If you have any other questions just ask.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Origami
VTOS (Vendor Terms of Service)

[NAGA]

Hi, Guys

 

I am going to build a custom aquarium and I have a few questions.

 

1. Does anyone know where I can buy acrylic from in the DMV area?

2. Do you guys think I can get by with just 1/2 inch acrylic with these dimensions 20x66x26 (HxLxW)

3. If anyone is willing to give me some personal advice so I dont mess this up I would greatly apprceiate it. Just let me know and we can talk over email

 

 

Hi,

 

I get questions like this all the time. I have been building aquariums, frag tanks, sumps, and reservoirs for over 20 years. With this I can tell you your going to want to play with building a sump or even a topoff tank first before you attempt anything like the size tank your thinking about. 66" by 26" by 20" tall can be made with 1/2". If it's for a reef tank though you'd want the 1/2" to go with a larger opening on top. Now as far as the bonding of the acrylic your going to be limited on what you can get as a lot of the chemicals used are quite hazzardous. I like to make my own solvents but, there is IPS or what is commonly called Weld-on is what is most widely available to the general public. There is Weldon #3, #4, most commonly available solvents. There use to be a #5 but, I believe that is no longer available. The #3 sets up very quickly (fast acting) and does not allow for that great of a bond. So stay away from Weldon #3 for anything over 30 gallons. Weldon #4 is a little better in that is has a little better flow charactoristics and is slower to setup. Your seams that are bonded will yield a little cleaner look to them. Don't let good looking seams fool you though.......just because there is no bubbles in the seam gives you better strength. This is where the testing of scrap material is important. You can actually have bubbles in the joint and yet have a great bond. However, #4 just recently went through a formulation change and IMO more junk went in and more of the good things went out. I don't reccommend it for anything over 150 gallons(so your right there at the limit).

 

So, having said all that if your really going to go for this right out of the gate take your time with lots of scrap material and let it setup for at least 48 hours and see if you can break your test pieces clean. If they snap off clean then you know your not getting a proper bond. If however, when your snapping the test pieces and your pulling out material from both surfaces that is when you know your doing it right. The last thing I'd tell you and it's the most important............have someone cut out the tank pieces with a CNC router table(not a hand router and table). The pieces literally will come to you ready to put together and with perfect accuracy and surface finish to put together. Good luck with this but, be smart about it...........PRACTICE!!!

Edited April 27, 2012 by NAGA

[ArtFully Acrylic (Adam B)]

 

 

There is Weldon #3, #4, most commonly available solvents. There use to be a #5 but, I believe that is no longer available. The #3 sets up very quickly (fast acting) and does not allow for that great of a bond. So stay away from Weldon #3 for anything over 30 gallons. Weldon #4 is a little better in that is has a little better flow charactoristics and is slower to setup. Your seams that are bonded will yield a little cleaner look to them.

 

............have someone cut out the tank pieces with a CNC router table(not a hand router and table). The pieces literally will come to you ready to put together and with perfect accuracy and surface finish to put together.

 

I agree with much of what NAGA is telling you in addition to the things I mentioned above, but I will add a few more. In regards to Weld-On #5, it's correct that it disappeared for quite a while, but ridoutplastics in CA has it available again now. Direct Link is Weld-On #5. Word of caution though, it costs twice what Weld-On #4 does. Another option for available solvents without having to deal with labs in getting multiple chemicals for your own mixing is McBond.

 

As for CNC router being a very important recommendation over a hand router and table I'm curious on this one. I have used a table mounted router for quite a while and never have a problem getting perfectly weldable seams with it. As a matter of fact, you have to be very careful going to a CNC location as many setups are not designed for heavy plastics such as those we use. If you go the CNC route (pun not intended ) make sure their shank is at the very very least 1/4"...better if its a 1/2" or better though which many CNC machines don't have. The reason for this is flex. Cell cast acrylic is quite dense. The thinner the shank the more the bit will flex when machining the acrylic. This leads to a surface that isn't completely square which can be bad news when it comes to welding the seams. It will lead to a much weaker joint.

 

Just my $.02 cents

[NAGA]

I agree with much of what NAGA is telling you in addition to the things I mentioned above, but I will add a few more. In regards to Weld-On #5, it's correct that it disappeared for quite a while, but ridoutplastics in CA has it available again now. Direct Link is Weld-On #5. Word of caution though, it costs twice what Weld-On #4 does. Another option for available solvents without having to deal with labs in getting multiple chemicals for your own mixing is McBond.

 

As for CNC router being a very important recommendation over a hand router and table I'm curious on this one. I have used a table mounted router for quite a while and never have a problem getting perfectly weldable seams with it. As a matter of fact, you have to be very careful going to a CNC location as many setups are not designed for heavy plastics such as those we use. If you go the CNC route (pun not intended ) make sure their shank is at the very very least 1/4"...better if its a 1/2" or better though which many CNC machines don't have. The reason for this is flex. Cell cast acrylic is quite dense. The thinner the shank the more the bit will flex when machining the acrylic. This leads to a surface that isn't completely square which can be bad news when it comes to welding the seams. It will lead to a much weaker joint.

 

Just my $.02 cents

Well if someone tells you to go buy a car you certainly do your research on where you go. Just common sense which is what you need for just about everything. I certainly am not advocating you just go find the first cnc router place you run into. Just like most things do your research and if you want a list of places just look for plastic fab shops. I don't know anyone that would cut half inch material with anything smaller than a 1/4" but, I'm sure if you try to find someone you could.) Feed rate, bit type, bit brand, and the tool path chosen all factor in how cuts are done. Just find someone that knows what there doing with plastic.........the accuracy is far better with consitency, squareness, and surface prep.

Edited April 28, 2012 by NAGA

[Amuze]

Do I see a tank build-off ramping up here? Future Wamas event? Tank tosses to the cheering and soon to be bloodied crowd?

 

Ps. The tank in my sig was built by Jeff (Naga).

Edited May 3, 2012 by Amuze

[ArtFully Acrylic (Adam B)]

 

Who knows, but I will say if a gun was put to my head to start throwing tanks to a cheering crowd I would at least be somewhat relieved by them being acrylic vs. glass...

[BWA_84]

First off, Thanks to everyone that came and posted and gave me advice I really apreciate it. I am actually having Adam at Artfullyacrylic build this tank so I dont mess it up and I will be doing a couple of smaller tanks to practice on. I actually watched Adam this past weekend and relized I was about to bite off more than I could chew for a first project. But he gave me a lot of helpful tools and advice for the future. I am going to post some pics of the work later and when its all done I will post more.

[smallreef]

Sounds like a good plan....work on some project tanks, sumps, and other misc things until you can feel confident about what you have built.

[BWA_84]

Hi,

 

I get questions like this all the time. I have been building aquariums, frag tanks, sumps, and reservoirs for over 20 years. With this I can tell you your going to want to play with building a sump or even a topoff tank first before you attempt anything like the size tank your thinking about. 66" by 26" by 20" tall can be made with 1/2". If it's for a reef tank though you'd want the 1/2" to go with a larger opening on top. Now as far as the bonding of the acrylic your going to be limited on what you can get as a lot of the chemicals used are quite hazzardous. I like to make my own solvents but, there is IPS or what is commonly called Weld-on is what is most widely available to the general public. There is Weldon #3, #4, most commonly available solvents. There use to be a #5 but, I believe that is no longer available. The #3 sets up very quickly (fast acting) and does not allow for that great of a bond. So stay away from Weldon #3 for anything over 30 gallons. Weldon #4 is a little better in that is has a little better flow charactoristics and is slower to setup. Your seams that are bonded will yield a little cleaner look to them. Don't let good looking seams fool you though.......just because there is no bubbles in the seam gives you better strength. This is where the testing of scrap material is important. You can actually have bubbles in the joint and yet have a great bond. However, #4 just recently went through a formulation change and IMO more junk went in and more of the good things went out. I don't reccommend it for anything over 150 gallons(so your right there at the limit).

 

So, having said all that if your really going to go for this right out of the gate take your time with lots of scrap material and let it setup for at least 48 hours and see if you can break your test pieces clean. If they snap off clean then you know your not getting a proper bond. If however, when your snapping the test pieces and your pulling out material from both surfaces that is when you know your doing it right. The last thing I'd tell you and it's the most important............have someone cut out the tank pieces with a CNC router table(not a hand router and table). The pieces literally will come to you ready to put together and with perfect accuracy and surface finish to put together. Good luck with this but, be smart about it...........PRACTICE!!!

 

Hey jeff when you you snap off do you literally mean weld some scrap pieces to gether then snap them apart?

[Origami]

Hey jeff when you you snap off do you literally mean weld some scrap pieces to gether then snap them apart?

Just in case Jeff's not around to answer: I think that he means just that. Prepare and solvent-weld a butt-jointed seam, let it cure for 48 hours, and then physically try to break the joint. If it breaks cleanly, then the joint did not properly "weld" the two pieces. (Gluing acrylic is actually a weld - that is, the material of each piece melts, mingles, and then hardens, producing a single piece.) If the joint fractures, with pieces being taken from each side, you have a weld of the quality that you want.

[BWA_84]

Just in case Jeff's not around to answer: I think that he means just that. Prepare and solvent-weld a butt-jointed seam, let it cure for 48 hours, and then physically try to break the joint. If it breaks cleanly, then the joint did not properly "weld" the two pieces. (Gluing acrylic is actually a weld - that is, the material of each piece melts, mingles, and then hardens, producing a single piece.) If the joint fractures, with pieces being taken from each side, you have a weld of the quality that you want.

 

 

Thanks I will try that

[Origami]

Oh, and if it doesn't break at all, that's some weld.

[NAGA]

The key is that when you go to break it it pulls material from both surfaces. That's a great bond. When it snaps apart and it's smooth or even then it is not a good bond. You'll find Weldon 4 or 3 will break apart pretty clean in a lot of attempts (especially your first go around or two)

[ArtFully Acrylic (Adam B)]

First off, Thanks to everyone that came and posted and gave me advice I really apreciate it. I am actually having Adam at Artfullyacrylic build this tank so I dont mess it up and I will be doing a couple of smaller tanks to practice on. I actually watched Adam this past weekend and relized I was about to bite off more than I could chew for a first project. But he gave me a lot of helpful tools and advice for the future. I am going to post some pics of the work later and when its all done I will post more.

 

Was a pleasure meeting with you and having you observe some of the process of your tank build this weekend Chris. Looking forward to seeing those pics . It was like I was a quasi celebrity or something ...will be nice to see some actual "action" shots/vids as I naturally can't easily take them of myself.

 

Also, to add to the seam break test Q/A...Origami and NAGA already gave you pretty detailed advice on it, but another thing that can play a role here is the type of acrylic you have. Not all acrylic is created equal and many "across the water" variants just aren't made to the spec we need when using them for pressure vessels (aquariums). Namely, sticking with brands such as Spartech Polycast & Plexiglas G you will have better chances of getting the results you want.

 

So when are you going to get started on that small aquarium that your wife wants you to build her? . You know once you get this 150gal in there she will really start bugging you even more lol.

[NAGA]

Regardless of the material the material should not break with a clean snap. Whether its cheap material like acrylite FF or Polycast the break should pull material from both surfaces.

[ArtFully Acrylic (Adam B)]

I agree and understand what you are saying. We are on the same page. I'm just saying that results are likely to be more promising with a quality material is all.

[BWA_84]

Was a pleasure meeting with you and having you observe some of the process of your tank build this weekend Chris. Looking forward to seeing those pics . It was like I was a quasi celebrity or something ...will be nice to see some actual "action" shots/vids as I naturally can't easily take them of myself.

 

Also, to add to the seam break test Q/A...Origami and NAGA already gave you pretty detailed advice on it, but another thing that can play a role here is the type of acrylic you have. Not all acrylic is created equal and many "across the water" variants just aren't made to the spec we need when using them for pressure vessels (aquariums). Namely, sticking with brands such as Spartech Polycast & Plexiglas G you will have better chances of getting the results you want.

 

So when are you going to get started on that small aquarium that your wife wants you to build her? . You know once you get this 150gal in there she will really start bugging you even more lol.

 

 

Thanks Adam, I havent forgot about the pictures I will send them And I am going to get started on her tank in a few weeks once I come pick up mine and get it situated in my basement.