Tell me how to bring my PH up again?

[Jan]

My PH is 7.8. I've done the air test, as suggested by Randy Holmes in his article about PH. That didn't help. I did 40 gallons of water change. That didn't help. I tested my mixed water and it reads 8.2. I then tried a buffer. That didn't help. Then I added Alk from my 2 part and I got condensation. PH still reads 7.8. Now what? More water change? Maybe this is why my Regal Angel isn't eating and some of my coral have bleached?

[angel not fish]

What salt do you use ? I would say try to steer your sand bed (that will release natural substances) that s gonna help the buffer work. _ I am not sure on that, but try.

[Jan]

I use reef crystals. I've got very little sandbed. My wrasse and sandsifting star stir the sandbed several times a day. What natural substance will stirring the sandbed release besides nitrates? The buffer caused condensation as did the alk part of the 2 part I use.

 

What salt do you use ? I would say try to steer your sand bed (that will release natural substances) that s gonna help the buffer work. _ I am not sure on that, but try.

[Marc Weaver]

I have read before that aragonite sand is a pH 8.0 buffer and that it liquefies and re-crystallizes all the time, but I'm not sure that's the case. I think that's what she was talking about, but I don't think it will work in your situation. I know you've been at this for a while, so all I can offer you is my experience. I could not keep pH up either until I raised my alk to 10. Are you using sodium carbonate? I use it and it always precipitates in the sump water and looks like a blizzard, but it eventually mixes back in.

[mrcoral.com]

Baking Soda will get it up

[Jan]

I have been at this for a while but I have a very hard time with understanding the chemistry, as you can see by me calling precipitation condensation.

 

No I do not use sodium carbonate. I use a 2 part; B ionic I & II after a water change. Every 7-10 days. So all you do is add sodium carbonate directly to the sump to keep your PH where it needs to be? How much and how often?

 

I have not checked my alk. I'll check my alk and if it's low should I just ignore the precipitation and dose more alk?

 

Thank you.

 

I have read before that aragonite sand is a pH 8.0 buffer and that it liquefies and re-crystallizes all the time, but I'm not sure that's the case. I think that's what she was talking about, but I don't think it will work in your situation. I know you've been at this for a while, so all I can offer you is my experience. I could not keep pH up either until I raised my alk to 10. Are you using sodium carbonate? I use it and it always precipitates in the sump water and looks like a blizzard, but it eventually mixes back in.

[Jan]

Thanks Sonny. Don't I have to bake the baking soda? Then how much do I add? Don't I have to bring the PH up slowly?

 

Baking Soda will get it up

[Marc Weaver]

Sodium carbonate is baked baking soda. Unbaked baking soda will not raise pH very much if at all. The pH increase from baked baking soda is quite high in the localized area it is dosed into. This is what causes the precipitation, but it will balance out and dissolve properly within a few minutes. Try not to focus on pH too much just yet.

 

I would do the following:

1. Test and adjust magnesium into the 1350-1400 range. Magnesium is very important to keeping alk and calcium in check. If it's too low, you will have a very difficult time maintaining proper alk and calcium levels, no matter what you do.

2. Test and adjust alkalinity and calcium. If there is a severe imbalance (such as 7dKH and 500ppm calcium,) which is at the extreme low and high ranges, stop there and post your results in this thread and I can help you get in back into balance.

3. If you numbers are closer to balanced, such as an alk level of 7 and 350PPM calcium for example, raise alkalinity first. I would shoot for 9 to start with since it's in the middle of the recommended range.

4. Then, finally raise calcium into the 400-430ppm range if it's lower than that.

 

All changes must be made slowly over the course of several days time. Don't raise alkalinity more than 1 dKH per day, less if possible. Don't raise magnesium more than 100ppm per day, and don't raise calcium more than 50ppm per day. I use bulk reef supply additives, so I can't tell you how much B-ionic to add. Maybe the directions will tell you.

 

All these changes, assuming they are out of balance to begin with, will naturally help your pH stay up. B-ionic should be dosed daily if you can keep up with it. You just have to trial end error until you find your tank's daily demand.

[Jan]

Thank you so very much for making this easy for me to understand. Several people have tried to explain it to me but it just wouldn't sink in. I'll do the testing later today and let you know what I get. My Mag and Calcium usually run high. 1500 and 500. I keep the magnesium high on purpose but I could never figure out why my calcium was high. dkh I rarely test for.

 

 

Sodium carbonate is baked baking soda. Unbaked baking soda will not raise pH very much if at all. The pH increase from baked baking soda is quite high in the localized area it is dosed into. This is what causes the precipitation, but it will balance out and dissolve properly within a few minutes. Try not to focus on pH too much just yet.

 

I would do the following:

1. Test and adjust magnesium into the 1350-1400 range. Magnesium is very important to keeping alk and calcium in check. If it's too low, you will have a very difficult time maintaining proper alk and calcium levels, no matter what you do.

2. Test and adjust alkalinity and calcium. If there is a severe imbalance (such as 7dKH and 500ppm calcium,) which is at the extreme low and high ranges, stop there and post your results in this thread and I can help you get in back into balance.

3. If you numbers are closer to balanced, such as an alk level of 7 and 350PPM calcium for example, raise alkalinity first. I would shoot for 9 to start with since it's in the middle of the recommended range.

4. Then, finally raise calcium into the 400-430ppm range if it's lower than that.

 

All changes must be made slowly over the course of several days time. Don't raise alkalinity more than 1 dKH per day, less if possible. Don't raise magnesium more than 100ppm per day, and don't raise calcium more than 50ppm per day. I use bulk reef supply additives, so I can't tell you how much B-ionic to add. Maybe the directions will tell you.

 

All these changes, assuming they are out of balance to begin with, will naturally help your pH stay up. B-ionic should be dosed daily if you can keep up with it. You just have to trial end error until you find your tank's daily demand.

[flowerseller]

Today is going to be a real nice day.

Open your windows and allow the built up CO2 in your house to escape.

Do you use kalk?

If so and I personally hope the answer is yes, you have to recharge, via adding new, kalk on a weekly basis to keep the calcium hydroxide in solution to benefit the tank.

 

btw,

 

standing in front of your tank talking to it and asking it why it's pH is so low followed up by assuring it you want it to be higher is not good.

You guessed it, unlike talking to plants, talking to reef tanks is bad because you are expelling more CO2 which is your problem in the first place.

[surf&turf]

Sodium carbonate is baked baking soda. Unbaked baking soda will not raise pH very much if at all. The pH increase from baked baking soda is quite high in the localized area it is dosed into. This is what causes the precipitation, but it will balance out and dissolve properly within a few minutes. Try not to focus on pH too much just yet.

 

I would do the following:

1. Test and adjust magnesium into the 1350-1400 range. Magnesium is very important to keeping alk and calcium in check. If it's too low, you will have a very difficult time maintaining proper alk and calcium levels, no matter what you do.

2. Test and adjust alkalinity and calcium. If there is a severe imbalance (such as 7dKH and 500ppm calcium,) which is at the extreme low and high ranges, stop there and post your results in this thread and I can help you get in back into balance.

3. If you numbers are closer to balanced, such as an alk level of 7 and 350PPM calcium for example, raise alkalinity first. I would shoot for 9 to start with since it's in the middle of the recommended range.

4. Then, finally raise calcium into the 400-430ppm range if it's lower than that.

 

All changes must be made slowly over the course of several days time. Don't raise alkalinity more than 1 dKH per day, less if possible. Don't raise magnesium more than 100ppm per day, and don't raise calcium more than 50ppm per day. I use bulk reef supply additives, so I can't tell you how much B-ionic to add. Maybe the directions will tell you.

 

All these changes, assuming they are out of balance to begin with, will naturally help your pH stay up. B-ionic should be dosed daily if you can keep up with it. You just have to trial end error until you find your tank's daily demand.

 

 

Great post Marc, I had this same situation happen. alk was @ 6.4 Cal was 500.

 

Started raising my alk up pass 10, working my way to 11, and everything is doing better.

[Origami]

"My PH is 7.8. I've done the air test, as suggested by Randy Holmes in his article about PH. That didn't help."

 

Jan, if you've done the aeration test using fresh air, ambient CO2 is not the problem. As Marc advised, you need to run some tests whose results you trust. I would start with the basic three: calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity. I would also verify the accuracy of whatever pH test you're using. It's possible that, if you're pH test is off (that is, reading low), that you've been trying to bring it up by adding an alkalinity supplement and, in the process, actually raised your alk too high. Of course, this can lead to things like precipitation like you're seeing, burnt tips on SPS and such.

 

If the basic three are in an acceptable range, then I would suspect organic acids may be part of the problem. However, with the big water changes you've done, I would expect some improvement at least for a short time.

 

Start by running some tests that you trust, including getting a pH reading that you trust.

[angel not fish]

I said for you move the sand bed, because it release natural and already balanced magnesium, strontium etc. At a momentarily small need I do this.

Anyway, I do agree that your magnesium may be low.

[Steve175]

Agree that I would first recalibrate your pH probe (or reconfirm result) to make sure that you are not chasing a ghost.

Any 2-part dosing should be based upon Alk, Ca and Mg test results and not performed based upon pH

When dosing based upon testing, you likely will find that you need to dose less right after a water change with RC (high in Mg, Ca, and Alk)

[zygote2k]

Jan-

sounds like good advice has been dosed accordingly.

I'll add my 3 cents...

 

Dose 3 part with a doser 24/7 and you'll find that the water chemistry will stay nice and stable. Test weekly to adjust your dosing amounts. Test at the same time of day to record consistent results. You can make all 3 components of 3 part at home. With all the money you'll save by DIY, it will allow you to pay for the doser in a short time.

[Jan]

LOL, I just read this. No, Chip, I don't use kalk. I talk to my tank, but not very much. It's the only living thing in my house that doesn't talk back. I've opened all the windos and back door since this post and still nothing. My dkh is at 6. I need to check all the rest now.

 

Today is going to be a real nice day.

Open your windows and allow the built up CO2 in your house to escape.

Do you use kalk?

If so and I personally hope the answer is yes, you have to recharge, via adding new, kalk on a weekly basis to keep the calcium hydroxide in solution to benefit the tank.

 

btw,

 

standing in front of your tank talking to it and asking it why it's pH is so low followed up by assuring it you want it to be higher is not good.

You guessed it, unlike talking to plants, talking to reef tanks is bad because you are expelling more CO2 which is your problem in the first place.

[flowerseller]

So check all your parameters and post.

Been said but you need to trust your pH reading first.

I'd mix up some kalk and it should be around 12-12.5

[Jan]

Mag 1380

dkH 6

Calcium 400

PH 7.8

Edited March 22, 2012 by Jan

[RubberFrog]

^ looks identical to my readings

[goodreeef]

I solved my ph problem by using an avast kalk stirrer and running my top-off-water throught it. My ph use to run between 7.5 - 7.9. Now it's 7.8-8.1.

[Hcuervo]

Sodium carbonate is baked baking soda. Unbaked baking soda will not raise pH very much if at all. The pH increase from baked baking soda is quite high in the localized area it is dosed into. This is what causes the precipitation, but it will balance out and dissolve properly within a few minutes. Try not to focus on pH too much just yet.

 

I would do the following:

1. Test and adjust magnesium into the 1350-1400 range. Magnesium is very important to keeping alk and calcium in check. If it's too low, you will have a very difficult time maintaining proper alk and calcium levels, no matter what you do.

2. Test and adjust alkalinity and calcium. If there is a severe imbalance (such as 7dKH and 500ppm calcium,) which is at the extreme low and high ranges, stop there and post your results in this thread and I can help you get in back into balance.

3. If you numbers are closer to balanced, such as an alk level of 7 and 350PPM calcium for example, raise alkalinity first. I would shoot for 9 to start with since it's in the middle of the recommended range.

4. Then, finally raise calcium into the 400-430ppm range if it's lower than that.

 

All changes must be made slowly over the course of several days time. Don't raise alkalinity more than 1 dKH per day, less if possible. Don't raise magnesium more than 100ppm per day, and don't raise calcium more than 50ppm per day. I use bulk reef supply additives, so I can't tell you how much B-ionic to add. Maybe the directions will tell you.

 

All these changes, assuming they are out of balance to begin with, will naturally help your pH stay up. B-ionic should be dosed daily if you can keep up with it. You just have to trial end error until you find your tank's daily demand.

 

Hey Marc,

 

So Jan sent me this thread and your description above. I'm currently experiencing the first scenario where my dKH is 5.8 and Calcium is 600. I think the calcium came from the garf grunge I seeded my tank with. My other numbers are below:

 

Nitrate: 0ppm

Phosphate: 0ppm

Magnesium: 1215ppm

Alkalinity: 5.8dKH

Calcium: >500 about 590ppm

 

Do you have any advice for how to get my chemistry back into line?

[taiscici]

I used to have the same problem, high calcium and low alk. I solved my problem by dosing baking soda until my alk is 10-11.

 

Randy Holmes had a great article.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

[Marc Weaver]

I used to have the same problem, high calcium and low alk. I solved my problem by dosing baking soda until my alk is 10-11.

 

Randy Holmes had a great article.

http://www.advanceda...02/11/chemistry

 

Exactly the article I was getting my information from. And that is what the article says. HCuervo is in Zone 4.

 

Steps I would take:

 

1. Double check your alkalinity test with another kit, a friend's kit, or at a LFS. This is very important unless you are very sure your kit's reagents are good.

2. Get a quality magnesium additive and follow the directions to bring your mag level up to around 1300 or so. I'd probably split the addition over 2 days to be safe.

3. Re-Check your alk and calcium.

4. Add 1/3 teaspoon of baking soda for every 25 gallons of water volume to a few cups of RO/DI water, mix well and add slowly to the sump.

5. Re-test alkalinity after a few hours.

6. Note how much this raised your alkalinity. With that amount, it should be in the neighborhood of .5dKH.

7. The maximum recommended rise in alkalinity is .5 to 1 dKH per day. I would personally stick to .5dKH per day maximum.

8. Make adjustments based on your actual reading to target .5. This will be the amount you dose each day. Check your alkalinity and calcium every day a few hours after dosing.

9. Watch your pH, because baking soda will sometimes lower it slightly.

10. Your target should be 10-11 like taiscici said. My alk is 10.3 and calcium is 440.

11. Once you reach the target, wait it out and calcium and alkalinity should drop naturally by themselves into the target ranges. I have heard that just by getting your alk levels up, your calcium automatically starts to drop. I'm not sure of that.

12. After all this, the real fun starts!! That's calculating the daily demand and dosing to compensate. I'm being sarcastic of course, because it's not fun, but the rewards in the long term are worth it.

 

To convert your dKH reading to meq/l that's used in the article, divide by 2.8. Your alk right now is 5.8dKH / 2.8 = 2.07 meq/l.

 

You should still be doing water changes during this time, which may mess with your numbers a little bit, so check alk and calcium a few hours after a water change or else the next day if you have already dosed baking soda for the day. If you use a salt high in alkalinity, such as reef crystals or red sea pro, don't dose baking soda that day.

 

If your tank does not have much coral, water changes alone may take care of the problem.

 

Watch your coral, especially SPS, for signs of stress, such as reduced polyp extension or burnt tips. It's been a few years since I went through this, but I don't remember anything bad happening, actually once I hit 9 dKH my pH finally stabilized at 8.2-8.4, and polyp extension increased. Growth doubled and even my acans and ricordea were happier and opened more fully. Everything looked better within a few days.

[Hcuervo]

Exactly the article I was getting my information from. And that is what the article says. HCuervo is in Zone 4.

 

Steps I would take:

 

1. Double check your alkalinity test with another kit, a friend's kit, or at a LFS. This is very important unless you are very sure your kit's reagents are good.

2. Get a quality magnesium additive and follow the directions to bring your mag level up to around 1300 or so. I'd probably split the addition over 2 days to be safe.

3. Re-Check your alk and calcium.

4. Add 1/3 teaspoon of baking soda for every 25 gallons of water volume to a few cups of RO/DI water, mix well and add slowly to the sump.

5. Re-test alkalinity after a few hours.

6. Note how much this raised your alkalinity. With that amount, it should be in the neighborhood of .5dKH.

7. The maximum recommended rise in alkalinity is .5 to 1 dKH per day. I would personally stick to .5dKH per day maximum.

8. Make adjustments based on your actual reading to target .5. This will be the amount you dose each day. Check your alkalinity and calcium every day a few hours after dosing.

9. Watch your pH, because baking soda will sometimes lower it slightly.

10. Your target should be 10-11 like taiscici said. My alk is 10.3 and calcium is 440.

11. Once you reach the target, wait it out and calcium and alkalinity should drop naturally by themselves into the target ranges. I have heard that just by getting your alk levels up, your calcium automatically starts to drop. I'm not sure of that.

12. After all this, the real fun starts!! That's calculating the daily demand and dosing to compensate. I'm being sarcastic of course, because it's not fun, but the rewards in the long term are worth it.

 

To convert your dKH reading to meq/l that's used in the article, divide by 2.8. Your alk right now is 5.8dKH / 2.8 = 2.07 meq/l.

 

You should still be doing water changes during this time, which may mess with your numbers a little bit, so check alk and calcium a few hours after a water change or else the next day if you have already dosed baking soda for the day. If you use a salt high in alkalinity, such as reef crystals or red sea pro, don't dose baking soda that day.

 

If your tank does not have much coral, water changes alone may take care of the problem.

 

Watch your coral, especially SPS, for signs of stress, such as reduced polyp extension or burnt tips. It's been a few years since I went through this, but I don't remember anything bad happening, actually once I hit 9 dKH my pH finally stabilized at 8.2-8.4, and polyp extension increased. Growth doubled and even my acans and ricordea were happier and opened more fully. Everything looked better within a few days.

 

Great info! Thank you very much for the advice. I'm already bringing my Mg up and have tested alkalinity with three different test kits and with Jan.

 

For the baking soda part, I have found that a mixture 85% baking soda 15% baked baking soda will keep the pH from moving very much. Mine is pretty low already at 7.6-8.1. I think this mix will work better as I make the 0.5dKH steps.

 

Thanks again and I'll update this thread with the results. Already with the Mg increase the hair or byropsis is dying and my pH swing is less.

[Marc Weaver]

Glad to hear things are looking better.