Guest alex wlazlak June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 i moved some of my rock around in my tank. my ammonia just got spiked really high from it,i did it yesterday, and now my fish are breathing rapidly and it happened 1 or 2 times before and some fish died befor. in 4-6 days or less, it'll be back down. but i need help on having my fish live!!! they are breathing rapidly and im affraid when i wake up they'll be dead:( .so what can i do to have them not die because of the ammonia spike?i already put in some ammo lock 2 to detoxify it, but it doesnt look like its working..PLEASE HELP!!post emediatly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScubaTodd June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 i moved some of my rock around in my tank. my ammonia just got spiked really high from it,i did it yesterday, and now my fish are breathing rapidly and it happened 1 or 2 times before and some fish died befor. in 4-6 days or less, it'll be back down. but i need help on having my fish live!!! they are breathing rapidly and im affraid when i wake up they'll be dead:( .so what can i do to have them not die because of the ammonia spike?i already put in some ammo lock 2 to detoxify it, but it doesnt look like its working..PLEASE HELP!!post emediatly.. 32446[/snapback] don't use ammo lock. post a very detailed description of your tank, setup, feeding regimen, and a list of the additives you use, otherwise nobody can help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xeon June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 I'd like to know more details too. When was the tank setup, how long it took to cycle, what size tank, what kind of filtration, substrate, how much rock, current test results and pretty much anything you can add to the list. If you have die off still on your rocks that produce copious amounts of ammonia when uncovered and/or moved around... that is certainly a problem. If you have a small or non-existent cleanup crew, detritus and waste buildup can be a problem. In the time being, I'd do a large scale water change. If moving your rock is really producing so much ammonia it is running amuck of your ANN cycle, that should be addressed. It could be a lot of things really, but we(I) need more details. Another thought is what is your stocking list? If your bio-load is too heavy for the filtration of your tank... you will never have a stable tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex wlazlak June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 i have a seaclone 100, penguine 330, bak-pak,coralife 48" power compact, powerhead, probly like 60-100 lbs. of live rock, crushed coral around 3" thick, and a few zoos.i moved some rocks around, and took probly 10 lbs. out, and scooped out some of the waste that was in the corner.some of the gravel was stired up, and then settled back down. i used to put in stress coat and stress zyme every or everyother week,and amo-lock 2 whenever i changed water or my ammonia got messed up..you said dont use amo lock 2?!?..why not?now what do yuo have to suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScubaTodd June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 i have a seaclone 100, penguine 330, bak-pak,coralife 48" power compact, powerhead, probly like 60-100 lbs. of live rock, crushed coral around 3" thick, and a few zoos.i moved some rocks around, and took probly 10 lbs. out, and scooped out some of the waste that was in the corner.some of the gravel was stired up, and then settled back down. i used to put in stress coat and stress zyme every or everyother week,and amo-lock 2 whenever i changed water or my ammonia got messed up..you said dont use amo lock 2?!?..why not?now what do yuo have to suggest? 32454[/snapback] Yeah do not use any of those additives, they are whats making your skimmer go nuts and are just plain ineffective. I'd get rid of the penguin filter, or take out all and any media you might have in there and just use it for circulation. Second, get rid of the crushed coral, siphon it all out, it causes a lot of nitrates. Go barebottom or go home depot hopping until you can find tropical play sand. The bag costs about 4$ and has a boy in overalls with a shovel on the bag. Do not get the other types of sand they sell. However adding sand to a tank with rock and everything in it will be a mess, so I'd just go barebottom. Search the boards, ebay, get yourself a aqua-c remora hang on skimmer, probably around 100$, much more effective than your seaclone. Then get yourself an RO/DI unit. Lastly, RELAX. Take things slowly. Only bad news comes quick in a reef tank. Use the search feature on the boards, buy some books. What are you feeding, whats your livestock list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grav June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 Alex, You are all over the place. 1. Don't do another water change untill you are using RO/DI. 2. Do not put anything else that is alive in your tank until you know what is going on. 3. Stop making huge changes. As much as I agree with the substrate ideas above as being better than what you have, these will just send you tank into a twister. 4. I'd leave the penguin in for now, given it's wet-dry action it is the best thing you have going in preventin Amonia spikes. replace it when things have settled down a little. 5. Don't spend another dime on additives. they are short term patches to a long term problem lets ask simple questions, what size is your tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex wlazlak June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 (edited) it is a 55 gallon tank. and my fish consists of:1 clown,1 yellow tail damsel, 1 yellow tang, and 1 rock blennie.my friend just set up his tank, its a 20, should i put my fish in there for a while, like a month, and then do all the stuff to my tank..like change to sand, change water, get ro unit, and basicly restart the whole thing?i might end up doing that.plus i like the sand look..:)so does it matter if i buy the real cheap stuff, or the $20 bag carrib sea stuff?also what type of ro/di units would you guys recomend? Edited June 3, 2005 by alex wlazlak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScubaTodd June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 it is a 55 gallon tank. and my fish consists of:1 clown,1 yellow tail damsel, 1 yellow tang, and 1 rock blennie.my friend just set up his tank, its a 20, should i put my fish in there for a while, like a month, and then do all the stuff to my tank..like change to sand, change water, get ro unit, and basicly restart the whole thing?i might end up doing that.plus i like the sand look..:)so does it matter if i buy the real cheap stuff, or the $20 bag carrib sea stuff?also what type of ro/di units would you guys recomend? 32468[/snapback] This is a debateable issue, but I'd say your tank is too small for the tang and I'd put him up for trade or sale. If you decide to keep the penguin, make sure its at least not clogged/filled with crud that could cause a nitrate problem. I think you might also want to test nitrite/nitrate to see where you are. 20$ carib sea is just the expensive version of the HD stuff. Looks the same. An RO/DI is a pretty simple thing, they all pretty much do the same thing equally effectively. You can find pretty decent ones on ebay for not too much, a 100 gpd will suit you fine. I got mine at aquaticreefsystems.com and it works great The CC while probably not the cause of your ammonia, will cause problems down the road. Its a nitrate factory. Barebottom is the "trendy" thing to do nowadays anyway and makes for a much easier to clean tank. Siphoning it out, slowly, while doing RO/DI water changes should be easy. Then you could just gradually add a cup or two of sand at a time in a zip lock bag underwater to minimize dust clouds if you wanted. Lastly make sure you are using decent test kits. Salifert test kits and a refractometer would probably do you well. Ammonia can also result from big time overfeeding, so make sure you're not doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowerseller June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 The most logical things to do for your situation is to get a beginner book and read it. Anything by John Tullock or Martin Moe is an excellent start. Water flow - you need lots and lots, even in a fish only tank. The surface of your tank water should have lots of little waves. This will more than double the surface area and allow for gas exchange. This is the single most important thing you can do. A powerhead placed to point towards the surface or at the surface will easily accomplish this. Don't go overboard, you just need to vigorusly ripple the waters surface to allow the gas/air exchange to occur. You can not have too much flow. (within reason) Additives can be a great thing if used when appropriate. There is a product called "Cycle". Follow the directions and store in the fridge after opening. Cycle will aide the fish and lower the amonia but it's a good temporary thing. YOU DO NOT NEED TO AD STRESS COAT. Give it to a FW guy or pitch it. I've had a CC sand bed since before 1988 and add to it periodically. Everyone knows that the "correct" stuff from HD is CC right? And the wrong stuff can befuddle you endlessly. "They look the same". Personally, I don't use the HD stuff and never recommend it. It is difficult to get the needed flow and oxygenation with that little grain stuff. If you know what A.R.M. looks like, that size and larger is the best suited size grain. A properly maintained sand bed with excellent flow (it has to breathe too) will not be a nitrate factory and do quite the opposite by means of denutrification. DON"T ADD TO THE POPULATION and FEED VERY SPARINGLY until you actually get a complete tank cycle, then add slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmeyer June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 I agree with ScubaTodd, the tang is probably not well suited for a 55. There are a bunch of different recommendations on the web for minimum tank size. Marine Depot recommends 100 gallon tank for the tang. Wetwebmedia tends to go with about 75-80. A bunch of other sites say you can do it in 50 - 55 (Aquaria Central, Fishdomain, ReefersInn). I would tend to be conservative and not keep one in under 75 gallons. ScubaTodd recommended a 100 gpd ro/di unit in the same post. Not sure why he chose that capacity. I'd like to hear back from him on that. I use a 24 gpd Kent Marine Maxxima for my 350 gallon system and that works for me. I top off about 3 gallons per day and do regular 30 gallon changes. For the 30 galon change I keep a rubbermaid trashcan and just refill it over a couple of days after the water change. That way the water is sitting ready whenever I am ready to do my next water change. The only times I could have used a greater capacity was when filling the tank for the first time or when I had a catastrophic event involving a cucumber and wanted to do a 25% water change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScubaTodd June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 The most logical things to do for your situation is to get a beginner book and read it.Anything by John Tullock or Martin Moe is an excellent start. Water flow - you need lots and lots, even in a fish only tank. The surface of your tank water should have lots of little waves. This will more than double the surface area and allow for gas exchange. This is the single most important thing you can do. A powerhead placed to point towards the surface or at the surface will easily accomplish this. Don't go overboard, you just need to vigorusly ripple the waters surface to allow the gas/air exchange to occur. You can not have too much flow. (within reason) Additives can be a great thing if used when appropriate. There is a product called "Cycle". Follow the directions and store in the fridge after opening. Cycle will aide the fish and lower the amonia but it's a good temporary thing. YOU DO NOT NEED TO AD STRESS COAT. Give it to a FW guy or pitch it. I've had a CC sand bed since before 1988 and add to it periodically. Everyone knows that the "correct" stuff from HD is CC right? And the wrong stuff can befuddle you endlessly. "They look the same". Personally, I don't use the HD stuff and never recommend it. It is difficult to get the needed flow and oxygenation with that little grain stuff. If you know what A.R.M. looks like, that size and larger is the best suited size grain. A properly maintained sand bed with excellent flow (it has to breathe too) will not be a nitrate factory and do quite the opposite by means of denutrification. DON"T ADD TO THE POPULATION and FEED VERY SPARINGLY until you actually get a complete tank cycle, then add slowly. 32476[/snapback] Not to be argumenative, but the HD stuff, provided we're talking about the same stuff, is perfect for the home aquarium. Provided you're not seeking extreme 30-50x turnover for an SPS dominated tank. In which case only bb will really suit you. Since he is going FO primarily and his tank is not suited at all for SPS, I don't think this will be an issue. The dust clouds settle after a few days and the smaller particles are perfect for bacteria and detrivores. But to each their own, the particle size may be a little large, but its still effective overall. I doubt hes going for a functioning DSB anyway. Aesthetically its pretty and cheap. Southdown, Yardright, OldCaslte, all the same stuff. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...light=southdown http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...light=southdown Also, I'm taking "crushed coral" to basically mean gravel. Granted all sand is parrot fish poop and broken down coral, but generally "crushed coral" refers to the gravel thats about the size of an eraser head and doesnt so much look like sand. A properly maintained sand bed will not be a "nitrate factory", but generally speaking a CC sandbed is only propper if it is regularly vacumed because not enough bacteria can live on it to consume the detrius that builds up inside. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...t=crushed+coral http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...t=crushed+coral http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...t=crushed+coral http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...t=crushed+coral http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...t=crushed+coral many more. I'm obviously bored at work. If he has 150 lbs of live rock in his tank. Adding cycle should not be necessary, especially before testing for nitrite/nitrate with a reliable test kit. His live rock should be providing all the filtration he needs, thus rendering any biological filtration in the penguin unnecessary and potentially problematic. Problems could be, the LR is still curing - solution leave things be run skimmer 24/7. Over feeding, or a build up of crud in the CC which needs to be vacumed or entirely removed. Lastly, he'll be getting all the gas exchange he likely needs from the foaming of the skimmer but aiming a PH towards the surface could be useful in reducing surface film build up since he doesnt have a sump/overflow. He should'nt need more than 5-10x turnover. Don't mean to be argumentative, just my take on things. Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScubaTodd June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 ScubaTodd recommended a 100 gpd ro/di unit in the same post. Not sure why he chose that capacity. I'd like to hear back from him on that. I use a 24 gpd Kent Marine Maxxima for my 350 gallon system and that works for me. I top off about 3 gallons per day and do regular 30 gallon changes. For the 30 galon change I keep a rubbermaid trashcan and just refill it over a couple of days after the water change. That way the water is sitting ready whenever I am ready to do my next water change. The only times I could have used a greater capacity was when filling the tank for the first time or when I had a catastrophic event involving a cucumber and wanted to do a 25% water change. 32493[/snapback] I recommended a 100 gpd ro/di unit simply because there is not a huge price difference between it and the lesser rated versions. Generally the dif between a 50 and a 100 gpd is about 10$. I've never even heard of a 24 gpd. Also, it depends a lot on your water pressure. I know for me, I have a 100 gpd, but I realistically only get about 20-30 gpd because my water pressure is not so good. The 10$ spend I find worth it to have my water that much quicker. But to each their own. You never know when something stupid might happen to your tank, and the ability to do a propper 50% water change within 24 hrs to me, is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardofNOVA June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 Alex, The guys your talking to hear have dozens of years of experience in SW Aquariums! Take what they are saying to you as gospel! We want you to stay in this hobby and ENJOY yourself with it, not get fustrated and quit! REMEMBER, ITS READY-AIM-FIRE NOT READY-FIRE-AIM! The hardest thing in life is patience and you will need a ton of it in this hobby! Understand that in SW Aquariums, you got to understand the BASICS! Above all, allow your tank to COMPLETE its cycling and then with a simple skimmer, Live Rock and Sand, will basically take care of itself. Give Mother Nature time to do it's thing. Save the bells and whistle for your FW tanks. In SW, its just patience. NOTHING good happens fast in this hobby, only trouble! Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mikesroth June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 Alex, Another thing to try. Find out who is in your area, and see if they would mind swinging by, checking out your situtation, and see if they can help you out. Sometimes a little hands-on help will make a world of difference. Not mention everyone I have ever met through this club is awesome and willing to help out a new person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmeyer June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 I recommended a 100 gpd ro/di unit simply because there is not a huge price difference between it and the lesser rated versions. Generally the dif between a 50 and a 100 gpd is about 10$. I've never even heard of a 24 gpd. Also, it depends a lot on your water pressure. I know for me, I have a 100 gpd, but I realistically only get about 20-30 gpd because my water pressure is not so good. The 10$ spend I find worth it to have my water that much quicker. But to each their own. You never know when something stupid might happen to your tank, and the ability to do a propper 50% water change within 24 hrs to me, is important. 32502[/snapback] Good rationale. I haven't looked at prices of these since I set up the tank 6 years ago. Is the $10 difference on the initial set up, on replacement membranes, or both? Do the membranes filter the same number of gallons (i.e. a 24 gpd membrane and a 100 gpd membrane will each filter 1000 gallons cumulatively on a given system)? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xeon June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 We're running down side roads... but I think the real difference between RO gpd rates is higher and/or lower rejection rates. Personally, I wouldn't use anything higher than a 75gpd. I'm also not sure a 50gpd membrane is necessary, although its rejection rate is better... which is why I use a 75gpd. A 100gpd is probably fine though, definitely better than tap. Never used one though, so I cannot confirm or deny TDS or other tests with a 100gpd membrane. End note: RO/DI = get one My suggestion is a 5-stage off of E-bay. Sediment--->Carbon1----->Carbon2----->RO Membrane----->DI cartridge. You can find one for a little over $100. Get one with clear housings and a clear DI with/for color changing resin. While you are at it, see if they have a mechanical shutoff valve that you can mount in a trash can or other reservoir you will be running the RO/DI water into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScubaTodd June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 We're running down side roads... but I think the real difference between RO gpd rates is higher and/or lower rejection rates. Personally, I wouldn't use anything higher than a 75gpd. I'm also not sure a 50gpd membrane is necessary, although its rejection rate is better... which is why I use a 75gpd. A 100gpd is probably fine though, definitely better than tap. Never used one though, so I cannot confirm or deny TDS or other tests with a 100gpd membrane. The rejection rates are virtually the same no matter the gpd. IMO the difference is virtually negligible. I get 0-3 tds with my 100 gpd for at least a few months. I'm not sure on the price difference between cartriges. I just ordered a 75 gpd cartridge because the guy I deal with was out of 100s, I don't remember what I used to pay for 100's but it seemed about the same. The real determining factor of rejection rates is the number of stages of your RO/DI. One peice of advice is this though, make sure you test both your RO and DI final output regularly. I recently got lazy and rested on experience of knowing how long my DI takes to wear out and not checking for a few months. I checked it and it was taking nothing out the water. After long talks with the dealer we discovered the DI was bad (very rare) and water thats supposed to be about 10 going towards the RO was really about 180, so the membrane wore out extremely quickly. When I first plugged in the bad DI and checked the final output, everything looked fine because the brand new the membrane could just about take everything out. Ok. that was definitely a side road. So yes, get an ro/di, or you can do the RO/DI lay-away type plan while most LFS will just sell you RO/DI water, and premade RO/DI saltwater. If you dont have propper testing equiptment, or dont want to deal with an upfront cost for a little while, you could do this. I think its usually like .50$ for fresh and 1$/gal for salt, im not sure though. But def more expensive in the long run. Ro/DI cartriges/filters can run up to about ~50$/yr to replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Stearns June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 Boy, Alex is getting a lot of play time on this one. Amonia is the most toxic thing in a salt water aquarium. Lucky for most marine reef keepers- it is NEVER a problem- This is all from lack of patience, and basic marine aquarium knowledge and over extending a new tank. Once any tank has been cycled it can normally flex to meet a new bioload when added slowly. Alex needs to do the very basic of homework and responsible reef keeeping in reading a couple of basic books (as listed above) and or articles before killing livestock. Sorry to be so blunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScubaTodd June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 Good rationale. I haven't looked at prices of these since I set up the tank 6 years ago. Is the $10 difference on the initial set up, on replacement membranes, or both? Do the membranes filter the same number of gallons (i.e. a 24 gpd membrane and a 100 gpd membrane will each filter 1000 gallons cumulatively on a given system)? Just curious. 32515[/snapback] I'm pretty sure they filter the same total number of gallons. 10$ dif is upfront. I'm not 100% on how the thing works, but i'd also think that a guy with a 100 gpd only needs to have his water running for 1/4 the time to get the same # gals, so I guess you save a little money money on water there... .002$ per gallon or so.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0eN June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 I've been running a 100 gpd RO/DI unit off eBay (around $100) for 6 months now. TDS around 4-5ppm. The exact same RO/DI unit at my gf's house where the water pressure is much higher, and the TDS dropped to 0-1ppm. Alex, I hear your finances are tight, so try talking your family into getting a RO/DI unit for the kitchen. Sell them on the idea that it's better to cook with and drink pure filtered water. It's also cheaper long-term than buying bottled water from the store. This way you'll have access to 'good' water for your reef-tank and everyone will be happy. Then start doing weekly 20% water changes until your readings are back to normal. What kit are you using for the ammonia tests? Buy a good one off eBay. In the meantime (like today!), go to your grocery store and buy two 5 gal containers of 'spring water' and use them for your 20% water change. (it's really just RO/DI water) What salt mix do you use? You can get Instant Ocean at PetCo/PetsMart. Drain 10 Gal from your tank syphoning as much of the dirt as you can and slowly refill with clean water (premixed with the correct salt SG 1.024-1.026). Don't move any more rocks!!! Just do water changes for the next 3-4 weeks. And also, make sure noone else touches the tank! Perhaps someone is over-feeding your fish while you're at school... Post a daily status report of what you did, and what the situation is, so we can continue helping you solve your crisis. Patience!!!! -Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScubaTodd June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 p.s. make sure you let your saltwater sit for at least 24hrs (sit while being stirred with a powerhead) before adding it to the tank, freshly mixed sw is toxic. Make sure temps match up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex wlazlak June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 nobodys feeding them while im at school..with the sand issue, i have crused coral=cc but what is the other stuff you guys were talking about?im going to start running my skimmer monday, even if i cant see a darn thing in the tank cause of bubbles!!!ill probly end up giving my friend my fish.and ill go buy a ro/di unit!cause it obiously seems like i definitly need one.we have one of those spring water things (the 5 gallon jug) at like office buildings, and they always need to buy more jugs..so with like a caralife ro/di units, could the water be safe to drink?!?thanks for all the help guys, i appretiate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScubaTodd June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 nobodys feeding them while im at school..with the sand issue, i have crused coral=cc but what is the other stuff you guys were talking about?im going to start running my skimmer monday, even if i cant see a darn thing in the tank cause of bubbles!!!ill probly end up giving my friend my fish.and ill go buy a ro/di unit!cause it obiously seems like i definitly need one.we have one of those spring water things (the 5 gallon jug) at like office buildings, and they always need to buy more jugs..so with like a caralife ro/di units, could the water be safe to drink?!?thanks for all the help guys, i appretiate it! 32543[/snapback] i remember you said your friend had a 20G. don't give him your tang. Find the tang a good home. Ro/di is safe to drink, you just dont want to drink strictly ro/di because it removes some minerals that are good for your health. This thread got kinda big, so i reccomend you read, and re-read again, and absorb. Theres a common theme in each post that hopefully you can pick out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMsAquarium June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 Yes you can drink it without problems. You can also use it to fill your coffee pot, steam irons ect... which is good since there will be no mineral deposits after the water is used. Meaning longer life for your pots and irons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mikesroth June 3, 2005 Share June 3, 2005 I dunno if you really want to use it for all that. There is a TON of waste water that is produced with a RO/DI. Isnt it like 3 parts waste water for 1 part Filtered. That would shoot your water bill through the roof, if you were using it for all your drinking water. I have also heard that you may not like the taste of it as it is supposed to be pretty bland without all the normal minerals removed. Now the waste water you can use for stuff like watering your plants, refilling pools, washing clothes (though I am not sure how this one works). You can also keep an eye out for people selling their old RO/DIs another good way to get one relatively cheaply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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