LED- Can I get what I want yet?

[DaveS]

Ok there's lots of info here as well as elsewhere on LED lighting. Plenty of discussion about optics, degrees, royal blue, drivers, soldering etc. I'm considering doing an LED fixture and I'm hoping that if I describe what I have/want, maybe some of the LED guys here can provide me a good configuration. Doing all the background research needed for this new technology is part of the barrier of entry for me.

 

I have:

-6' long x 24" wide x 30" deep tank

-I normally have 3x400W Lumenbright pendant fixtures across it

-lighting is hidden so it doesn't need to be super pretty but notice I spend extra for pendants instead of just reflectors

-Mostly SPS tank with some other stuff on the floor

-I use the PlusRite 14K color which is just a tad less blue and whiter than the Radiums. We can use Radium as the color baseline since most are familiar with it

 

I want:

-a replacement for the middle 400W light. I'm wiling to swap out the middle 400W MH fixture for an LED fixture. Since it's between 2 other 400W lights, the LED fixture doesn't need to put out the equivalent of 400W- it can be less. I just need something to fill in the lighting in the middle. Obviously if the LED fixture can provide close to the same amount of light as a 400W MH that would interest me as I could eventually replicate and go LED entirely. If I went all LED, I probably want something around 3x300W as 3X400W is probably more light than I need but 3x250W is probably not enough.

-the ability to do dusk/dawn in the fixture. Not sure if means variable intensity LEDs or just different sets of them coming on at staggered times.

-1-2 LEDs that can stay on as moon lights would be nice

 

Please tell me:

-If I can achieve this in a reasonable manner (1000 LEDs at $3 each is not what I'm looking for...)

-What components I would need to make this happen (LED color combination would be nice)

-General pricing and availability info of components. I don't need all the info just want to know if anything is super expensive or difficult to find.

 

I'm not afraid of soldering or other electronics. I AM afraid of huge price tags or DIY efforts with a savings rate of $2/hour....

 

What do you think guys, is this a feasible endeavor yet?

 

Thanks in advance for the ideas.

[Glenn]

Tagging along w/ Mr. Sun because my next tank (hopefully 60x30x24) WILL be LED lit and I have the same questions as Dave.

[zygote2k]

You could have a custom built fixture by one of the locals for $1500+

 

You could get the pricey AI fixtures and they would solve your problem completely. $3k-ish.

 

You could go with 12) Par 38's in 12k and 20k mix. $1500-ish

 

You could use 4) 12k Ecoxotic Cannon pendants supplemented with Panorama strip modules and a few Royal Blue Par 38 bulbs strategically placed. $1700 +/-

[Coral Hind]

Also tagging along because I have been having the same questions.

 

After reading the post above though I don't think it is worth switching lights out over a large tank just yet. Maybe if you had to buy an all new lighting system for a new tank or replacement ballasts but just to switch when you already have a working system running cheap Plusrite bulbs it just isn't worth it yet to me.

[overklok]

Aqua Illumination LEDs are the way to go. Save yourself the time and hassle of DIY. AI has a great system and a controller that provides sunset-sunrise/moonrise-moonset options (it also does storms and lightning). Each color is independently controlled , so with three colors, blue, royal blue, and white, the color temp combinations are infinite. Their support is top notch. They are based in the US and are available by phone. Plus they have a good trouble ticket system on the AI website. I have 5 Sol Blue modules over a 220, they are only running at 50 blue and 20 percent white, which is a lot of lumens. I don't think anyone is running over 70 percent on any AI setup I have read about. They are so powerful, it is very easy to burn corals on initial setup. They are costly but work very well. There is a proven upgrade path for these units, so when new LED technology comes out, it is easy to put in new pucks and system boards. With the modular system you can purchase as many or as few modules needed to get your system going. Your aquarium is the exact same size as mine, so you can infer a progression from halide to LED. AI has a hanging rack system I use, that can be easily hidden in your canopy. With the ability to slowly upgrade the system from halide to full LED (which what will happen after you get LED fever), I would go with the Aqua Illumination setup. (They run about 500 dollars a module, Bulk Reef Supply sells them.)

Edited January 8, 2011 by overklok

[jtro]

Dave

Currently building one now for my setup I think we have about the same Tank demesions.Will let you know whin I get the first one together.

Jim

[Guest thefishman65]

Dave,

 

Right now about 72 watts of LED relates to a 250 MH. So maybe 36 for a 400, the problem is penetration you probably need some tight lenses, maybe 40. How high above the tank do you want this? Figure $5 for LED ($3-5) and lense ($1) so $180.

 

If you really want inexpensive you can DIY your own driver. I have a board that runs about $35 for parts and a power supply is needed depending on what you can find on ebay lets say $50. I have not tested it yet, but ths coard should allow moon lgihts. What did you want to use for dimming. It is designed to work with a DIY controller folks are designing on Reef Central called the Typhoon. I have not otten there yet, but I think it runs less than $50.

 

Heatsink I can help you out on. I got some for $1, but it means lots of little pieces.

 

Sorry I am not good with color temperature. BUt we should be able to get soemthing you like.

 

Why don't you call me (703) 743-9208 and you can come see mine or we can talk in person. That will let you see if it is what you are looking for.

 

PS. In case you don't recoginize the screen nam I am the guy that was in the Va Tech SCUBA club with you.

 

[EDIT]

Actually anyone interested can give me a call

Edited January 8, 2011 by thefishman65

[TonyD]

Dave,

 

I was in the same situation as you. I posted on here fo advice between the PAR38s bulbs and color temp, and degree optics configurations. Zygotek provided some excellent pictures of PAR38 to compare. After researching further, I decided to go with DIY kits from reefledlights. I had a choice between reefledlights and rapidled. Prices for leds, drivers and optics were about the same for both websites, but I decided with reefledlights only because they offered an 8" wide heatsink rather than the 4.25" heatsink that rapidled offered.

 

I have a 6' long by 28" by 24" 175 tank. I'm purchasing 3 led kits to hang above each section. For each kit, I bought 2 dimmable mean well drivers so that I can adjust the white vs blue individually. Each kit has 24 leds (12 cool white, 12 royal blue) with space to upgrade to 48 leds later. 24 leds is comparable to 175W MH. 48 leds is similar to 400W MH. 3 led kits with 24 leds each, with heatsink and mean well drivers and led seal cost me about $900.

 

Hope this helps...let me know if you need more information.

 

Tony

[Coral Hind]

That's some good info Tony. So a tank like Dave's trying to get to around 400w might cost him around $1800 then. Dave could also go with a lesser number but extend the photoperiod to make sure the corals are getting enough light.

[dakotasreef]

That is some excellent info.

 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Guest thefishman65]

The AI fixutre made of XP-G and XP-E is 75 watts (25 LEDs at 3 watts) and claim equivalence to 270 MH. This maybe marketing but I have seen similiar comparison so Tony where are you getting your reference from? Just trying to get a real answer. Some also depends on optics

[bankyf]

The AI fixutre made of XP-G and XP-E is 75 watts (25 LEDs at 3 watts) and claim equivalence to 270 MH. This maybe marketing but I have seen similiar comparison so Tony where are you getting your reference from? Just trying to get a real answer. Some also depends on optics

 

I have a frag tank divided into two sections. One section has a 250 watt mh over it and the other has a rapid led 12 XP-G and 12 XP-E leds with a mixture of 60 and 80 degree lenses. This is a shallow(12" or so) tank, but from what I rember of PAR numbers they are fairly close. I will get some par numbers again tonight when the lights come on and post them.

Edited January 9, 2011 by bankyf

[TonyD]

The AI fixutre made of XP-G and XP-E is 75 watts (25 LEDs at 3 watts) and claim equivalence to 270 MH. This maybe marketing but I have seen similiar comparison so Tony where are you getting your reference from? Just trying to get a real answer. Some also depends on optics

 

These are XR-E LEDs from http://www.reefledlights.com/led-kits/deluxe-led-kits/. The XRE leds are rated at 1A max and suggested you run them around 700mA. The XPG leds are rated at 1.5A max and can probably brighter, but also more expensive. I read that without optics, the leds alone output 90 degrees. I didn't want to spotlight look with 40 degree optics. I chose the 70 degree optics as a good mix of both. I don't know if it will be enough to penetrate all the way to the bottom of my tank so we will see.

 

You will need 10V power supply and a potentiometer to adjust your driver for each color. Rapidled sells a nice one : http://www.rapidled.com/servlet/the-118/2-Color-Dimming-Kit/Detail.

 

I am by no means an expert on led builds. I've only been looking at it for the last 2 months. I haven't even built my first led diy kit yet....it's still in progress.

[TonyD]

That's some good info Tony. So a tank like Dave's trying to get to around 400w might cost him around $1800 then. Dave could also go with a lesser number but extend the photoperiod to make sure the corals are getting enough light.

 

From reefledlights, a 48 led diy kit is $394...so approximately $1200. The 8.46" wide heatsink is out of stock from Heatsink USA. Bill from reefledlights gave me a 10" wide heatsink instead at no extra cost. The mean well 60-48D 1.3 A dimmable driver is out of stock also. I ordered my kit on 12/26. He's supposed to get another shipment of drivers in about a week. He sent me another mean well driver 700mA at no charge so I can test out my led lights until my dimmable driver comes in. Bill has been great throughout this and has kept me informed.

 

They say to run 12 leds on a series string with each driver and would just need to dial back to driver so it only outputs 700mA instead of 1.3A. But you can actually run 2 parallel strings of 12 leds (24 leds) with one driver and save you the cost of another driver. But I would recommend putting in a 1000mA quick blow fuse in case one of the led strings goes bad and you don't have the full 1.3A runninig to the other string. That would fry it.

[DaveS]

Thanks for all the input so far guys. It's so much easier with the discussion is focused on a particular scenario/need as opposed to figuring out what will work based on everyone else's different needs. I've been researching information this weekend based on your input and below are my thoughts. These thoughts are based on the following:

 

You could have a custom built fixture by one of the locals for $1500+

 

You could get the pricey AI fixtures and they would solve your problem completely. $3k-ish.

 

You could go with 12) Par 38's in 12k and 20k mix. $1500-ish

 

You could use 4) 12k Ecoxotic Cannon pendants supplemented with Panorama strip modules and a few Royal Blue Par 38 bulbs strategically placed. $1700 +/-

 

Thanks Rob but all these options fall within the "too expensive" category.

 

Aqua Illumination LEDs are the way to go. Save yourself the time and hassle of DIY. AI has a great system and a controller that provides sunset-sunrise/moonrise-moonset options (it also does storms and lightning). Each color is independently controlled , so with three colors, blue, royal blue, and white, the color temp combinations are infinite. Their support is top notch. They are based in the US and are available by phone. Plus they have a good trouble ticket system on the AI website. I have 5 Sol Blue modules over a 220, they are only running at 50 blue and 20 percent white, which is a lot of lumens. I don't think anyone is running over 70 percent on any AI setup I have read about. They are so powerful, it is very easy to burn corals on initial setup. They are costly but work very well. There is a proven upgrade path for these units, so when new LED technology comes out, it is easy to put in new pucks and system boards. With the modular system you can purchase as many or as few modules needed to get your system going. Your aquarium is the exact same size as mine, so you can infer a progression from halide to LED. AI has a hanging rack system I use, that can be easily hidden in your canopy. With the ability to slowly upgrade the system from halide to full LED (which what will happen after you get LED fever), I would go with the Aqua Illumination setup. (They run about 500 dollars a module, Bulk Reef Supply sells them.)

 

For the AI, at $500/fixture + driver and knowing that I'd need 2 fixtures to equate to my 400MH makes it more than I'd like to spend. I did however look at the site thoroughly and got some great ideas (see below).

 

From http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/p/faq.html I got this tidbit

 

Q: How many of what color would I need?

A: Most people like the 14k look which is about 60% Cool white and 40% royal blue (XP* models)

 

Now I have a decent answer to my color question although some seem to be saying a mix of Cool white, royal blue and blue- who's got opinions on this?

 

Dave,

 

Right now about 72 watts of LED relates to a 250 MH. So maybe 36 for a 400, the problem is penetration you probably need some tight lenses, maybe 40. How high above the tank do you want this? Figure $5 for LED ($3-5) and lense ($1) so $180.

 

After doing some more research I understood this comment. Each LED is about 3 watts. So if 72W LED = 250W MH, I want 115.2W from LED or about 38 LEDs. Going with a 2:1 white/Royal Blue ratio, I either want 36, 39. or 42 LEDs.

 

I looked at http://www.heatsinkusa.com and found the largest heat sink they have to be 10" wide by 20" long. That's pretty large but should help me spread the lights out as much as I wish. I may go with a smaller one with some experimenting.

 

Based on this info so far, here's what I've come up with.

 

 

The idea is to use 2 fixtures with 21 bulbs in them each. There would be 7 pods of 3 LEDs. Each pod having 2 whites and 1 Royal Blue to give me the 14K coloration. I think that 1 of the whites will have a 40 degree lens on it for penetration while the other will not to provide spread. Not sure yet if the Blue will have optics or their spread. If you read more about the AI fixture my guess is that they do the same thing for their "pucks". It's just a matter of the combination of optics they use on the 3 LEDs.

 

So far with this idea the costs are:

 

42 LEDs * $3 + 2 heat sinks * $60 = $246 ($123/fixture). This doesn't include the optics which could add $42 ($21/fixture), the drivers and miscellaneous wires/solder/paste stuff.

 

I haven't figured out the driver situation yet. I think I'd like to at least have the blues on a dimmable driver. This would allow me to do dusk/dawn with the blues. Dimmable on the whites would be a bonus as it would allow me to the tweak the color temp a little more. If anyone has some specific things they can point me towards with suggestions and how exactly they are wired up, that would be great.

 

Now, more questions:

What am I missing?

Am I wrong about the LED colors and resultant temperature?

I know that I'll need to play with LED spacing some- both LED spacing within a trio as well as spacing for each trio on the heatsink. Suggestions on that?

Anything else?

 

One interesting thing that occurred to me- by dividing 1 400W MH fixture up into 2 equivalent LED fixtures, if I swap out all 3 MH fixtures I could space the LED fixtures out a little more evenly than what the 3 MH give me. I may also be able to go with only 5 LED fixtures instead of 6.

 

Comments are appreciated!

[basser9]

Way to much money there are great deals around......

Heres a diy price for 50 leds ....

DEALEXTREME has cheap drivers that work great.....driver 47306 for 26.00 delivered

will drive 40 or 50 leds as its a 3.0a driver .....10 leds X 5 strings at 600ma......

Kaidomain.....XPE-R2.....10 -33.00 THATS 83 DOLLARS FOR 25

YOU NEED 25 ROYAL BLUES.....LEDGROUPBUY....25 FOR 85

Check ebay there are optics for 50 TO 70 CENTS.........30.00

 

THATS 225 DOLLARS AND ALL YOU NEED IS SOME WIRE ....THERMAL PASTE AND SOME HEATSINKS.

You are running the leds at 600ma so 5 pices of c channel will work.

300 is what you can get under very easy to do.

XPE-R2 ARE SO CLOSE TO THE XPG BUT CHEAP ENOUGH THAT THEY ARE THE WAY TO GO TO GET MORE LEDS TO COVER MORE AREA.

Spead out more leds evenly not in clusters of 3as leds already have a spotlite/beam effect.

Edited January 9, 2011 by basser9

[Glenn]

what do the LED "triplets" provide that a row of seven whites, a row of seven blues, and a final row of seven whites on each heatsink would provide?

 

Is it easier to group/solder the triplets? I like DaveS's plan but I was never thinking of building them in the triplet arrangement he's using.

[TonyD]

DIY instructions say to space each led at least 1 inch apart.

[bankyf]

Ok, here are my par numbers for comparison.

 

Both fixtures 8" from the surface of the water, water depth of 12" with PAR meter sensor at the bottom:

 

250 MH - 179

12 blue xr-e / 12 white xp-g (xpg has 45 degree lenses, xre has a mix of 60 and 80) - 3 watt leds with - 165

 

If I moved the sensor around a bit I could get a range of + or - at least 10 on each, so it is really very close.

In all fairness, the mh bulb is past due for replacement, not sure how much that effects the outcome.

 

The led fixture probably appears slightly brighter to my eyes, but it is also a whiter light with the 50/50 mix of leds vs a 14k mh.

[zygote2k]

Unless you spread the lights out or use at least 60 degree lenses or wider, you'll have distinct bands of different colored light and little mixing. This is very apparent with the DIY kits. I like to use the Par 38's on swivel pendants to eliminate this effect. The 90 has 12)bulbs and the banding issues have been mostly cancelled out because I can move each bulb independently to cover the same area from different directions. With enough bulbs it looks close to the same light spread as a conventional light system. For a 48x18 surface area, there are 60) 3w Crees in a 40/20 white/blue mix.

[BowieReefer84]

Ok, here are my par numbers for comparison.

 

Both fixtures 8" from the surface of the water, water depth of 12" with PAR meter sensor at the bottom:

 

250 MH - 179

12 blue xr-e / 12 white xp-g (xpg has 45 degree lenses, xre has a mix of 60 and 80) - 3 watt leds with - 165

 

If I moved the sensor around a bit I could get a range of + or - at least 10 on each, so it is really very close.

In all fairness, the mh bulb is past due for replacement, not sure how much that effects the outcome.

 

The led fixture probably appears slightly brighter to my eyes, but it is also a whiter light with the 50/50 mix of leds vs a 14k mh.

 

THANK YOU. I have built a diy with 12 blue xr-e and 12 white xp-g. No lenses on mine, but I figure I am at LEAST equiv to a 175 halide based on this data.

[Guest thefishman65]

Dave I htink you have your mix backwards. Most people ran the XR-E series with a 50/50 split royal blue to cool white. The XP-G are more effificent and the general consensus was 40% XP-G cool white and 60% royal blue eihter XR-E or XP-E.

 

The XR-E have a narrower spread (90% IIRC) by default than the XP-G or XP-E (110% IIRC). For a while the royal blue XP-E were more efficient (lumens /watt) than the XR-E. However I beleive that they now have the same efficiency.

 

The LEDs basser listed above would probably work for the spectrum (didn't look at the spec sheet) however if you buy less efficient LEDs you spend more on electricity and cooling.

 

Will you be at the winter meeting? I'll bring some heat sink material and see if you want to use it. Here are some fun things you can do to try and optimize LED usage:

Oops no pictures I guess you can go look on reef central.