Dave W's 3000 gal plankton/reef tank

[mogurnda]

This is a great thread. Definitely the kind of thing many of us fantasize about and will probably never do.

[Coral Hind]

DaveW,

Will you be using a salt brand like Instant Ocean or similar brand with trace elements in it? I ask because I have seen others with large systems use raw salt and then add the mag, calcium and other items to it.

[dave w]

My back hurts just looking at all that block. I don't think you need the sump partitions as supports for the outside block wall. The walls are short in both length and height. Plus if you are filling the sumps with water you will have that water pressure on the blocks.

 

Have you checked out Monsterfishkeepers.com? There are a few large tank builds over there that you might be able to get some info from. Maybe learn from other people's mistakes.

 

I will check out monsterfishkeepers.com tonight. It's true that I will have 24" or so water pressure on the blocks, but even an occaisonal dry sump could do me in of the pressure of the earth is to high. So I have to design for a worst case scenario. I probably don't need every device used here: partitions as buttresses, the horizontal steel and filling every block core with concrete and steel. But it only takes a few hundred more in materials to give me peace of mind. If this tank broke, I couldn't transfer the items into a few 55's until I fixed it. And because my labor is free, I think i will be less than $5k on the whole thing. So a few hundred in extra material isn't going to be on the top of a bunch of other cost overruns.

 

And my back hurts literally as much as yours does figuratively. I hadn't laid 10" block before and boy are those suckers heavy.

[dave w]

This is a great thread. Definitely the kind of thing many of us fantasize about and will probably never do.

 

 

Welcome to the thread mogurnda. Activity had died down a little and I worried that I was coming across as preachy. Somebody please kick me, or at least put me back on the path if they start to see that happening. I have been thinking of this tank for a while, but had settled on a 1,000 gallon tank in my basement office with 8 solartubes for lighting. Then Rob mentioned to put it in the sunroom and my wife enthusiastically supported getting it out of the main house. So here I am. In order to triple the size I have to finish the kid's basement at the same speed so my wife stays happy.

[dave w]

DaveW,

Will you be using a salt brand like Instant Ocean or similar brand with trace elements in it? I ask because I have seen others with large systems use raw salt and then add the mag, calcium and other items to it.

 

This seems like a great idea if I could get the formula right. I know Aquatic Ecosystems used to sell a solution of other salts that just needed NaCl added. When I looked at it 20 years ago it appeared just as expensive to buy my chemicals at retail as to buy a pre-mix. What do you think?

[FearTheTerps]

Most of us refer to the left or right side of our tanks, I love how Dave refers to the east and west halves!

 

Priceless!!!

 

Can't wait to see more.

[davelin315]

Dave, back to the pistons momentarily, I think you could build prototypes out of 2 5 gallon buckets to see what they're capable of. Take a 5 gallon bucket, pop some holes in it the sides towards the bottom, take another one on top of it, submerge these into some water and then push the top bucket in and out of the bottom bucket. Water will of course be escaping through the top since it's not sealed, but you could at least get a feel for what it accomplishes even with leaking. You could probably even take the o-ring out of a salt bucket lid and push that around the outside of the top bucket and create a bit of a seal with it.

 

Oh, and by the way, there's always an ebb and a flow to things as people sit back and watch what happens - this is a build of great interest to a lot of us, but sometimes when the more technical minds get involved you'll see some of us simpletons sit back and just watch. Believe it or not, we enjoy this as much as you do!

[dave w]

Dave, back to the pistons momentarily, I think you could build prototypes out of 2 5 gallon buckets to see what they're capable of. Take a 5 gallon bucket, pop some holes in it the sides towards the bottom, take another one on top of it, submerge these into some water and then push the top bucket in and out of the bottom bucket. Water will of course be escaping through the top since it's not sealed, but you could at least get a feel for what it accomplishes even with leaking. You could probably even take the o-ring out of a salt bucket lid and push that around the outside of the top bucket and create a bit of a seal with it.

 

Oh, and by the way, there's always an ebb and a flow to things as people sit back and watch what happens - this is a build of great interest to a lot of us, but sometimes when the more technical minds get involved you'll see some of us simpletons sit back and just watch. Believe it or not, we enjoy this as much as you do!

 

Thanks for the encouragement Dave. I am excited about the pistons and matching the wavelengths on the three legs, although I don't know how to keep both pistons in time. My immediate goals are finishing the block, framing and roof, then welding the stainless steel angle frame. Even after the tank is glassed and filled, there will be months to install and fine tune the systems. Curing the live rockwork will be a month or two all by itself. That will probably be when I have time to build the pistons. Right now I want to get "dried in" so the cold weather can't keep slowing me down.

[Chad]

Dave, I am also still thinking on the pistons, I was playing with modelling on the plane west the other day, I will probably finish it up on the way back tomorrow and will have some pics to show for it. On the way out here I modelled about half of the parts necessary for the project.

[dave w]

Most of us refer to the left or right side of our tanks, I love how Dave refers to the east and west halves!

 

 

I know you're joking, but it's hard to get a pic of the tank without a wide angle lens, so I have to keep taking two pics to cover it.

[dave w]

Dave, I am also still thinking on the pistons, I was playing with modelling on the plane west the other day, I will probably finish it up on the way back tomorrow and will have some pics to show for it. On the way out here I modelled about half of the parts necessary for the project.

 

Thanks for donating your time, Chad. At this point I'm thinking of 6" pvc pipe as the first choice for the cylinder and Acrylic for the pistons. I have some 1" acrylic left over from the 600 gallon tank I took apart. I'm thinking an acrylic circle cut by a 6" hole saw might be just the thing. If I cannot find a 6" hole saw then I lean toward 4" dimensions. The inside diameter of the pipe and the outside diameter of the acrylic circle should match. If not, it would be easy to sand a light layer off the acrylic circle, but probably hard to add material if needed to make them fit.

[dave w]

 

Here is a pic of the east half of the tank. Not as exciting as the progress of the west half.

[Coral Hind]

Looking good Dave, you have had some good weather lately for a project like this. Will the pipe going from east side to west side have a pump on it?

[Coral Hind]

How deep will the overhead tanks be?

Edited November 13, 2010 by Coral Hind

[zygote2k]

Dave-

If you need an easy cheap (free) alternative to pvc pistons, I work in a foam shop and can make you some polyethylene discs and glue them together to form a near perfect fit for the cylinder. If you need any PE foam for padding, let me know.

[dave w]

Looking good Dave, you have had some good weather lately for a project like this. Will the pipe going from east side to west side have a pump on it?

 

The weekend was too busy with kids, but I'll get in a few hours this morning. It is my intention to power the connecting pipes (which turn the horseshoe into a doughnut) by geyser pumps because it appears geysers move the most water with the least energy.

 

I believe in the old saying "it's cheaper to put air in water than water in the air". I'd prefer to power everything by air if it significantly cuts the power bill. If I lift the refugia from a few inches above water level to 18", I could drain the refugia into a surge device and do much of the 20x hourly turnover. I need to experiment with geyser pumps to see how much water flow they create at this head with a 2,000 cubic inch per minute air pump. If the geyser lifts water easily, I am thinking of raising and enlarging the refugia.

 

But there are other issues. Large air volume from a geyser pump shooting water into the refugia may be noisy, and I may need to build a box to dampen this noise. I could even use the escaping air flow to power something. If the box has the water outlet below the water line it may also handle any bubble popping/salt creep issues. When I have time I'll sketch up my idea for discussion.

 

Many things to work on.

[dave w]

Dave-

If you need an easy cheap (free) alternative to pvc pistons, I work in a foam shop and can make you some polyethylene discs and glue them together to form a near perfect fit for the cylinder. If you need any PE foam for padding, let me know.

 

Rob, this is a very generous offer. When the sunroom is dried in, we will finalize dimensions on the cylinders. Thank you.

[dave w]

How deep will the overhead tanks be?

 

 

By overhead tanks do you mean the refugia? The depth is still open to discussion and I'd like people to chime in. Generally I want the refugia to be in full sunlight, high water flow, large surface area for dissolved oxygen, shallow sand bed and removable algae screens to feed the fish. This is a tall order but I think it can be done. I'd think anything from 3" to 8" depth would be appropriate. What do you think?

 

Up to now I've sketched four overhead refugia with as much as 15 square feet of surface area each. I've sketched them around 18" wide and 10' long. I can't guess how many gpm's each will handle, but I like the idea of also using them to power a surge system. I'm open to suggestion.

[Chad]

The weekend was too busy with kids, but I'll get in a few hours this morning. It is my intention to power the connecting pipes (which turn the horseshoe into a doughnut) by geyser pumps because it appears geysers move the most water with the least energy.

 

I believe in the old saying "it's cheaper to put air in water than water in the air". I'd prefer to power everything by air if it significantly cuts the power bill. If I lift the refugia from a few inches above water level to 18", I could drain the refugia into a surge device and do much of the 20x hourly turnover. I need to experiment with geyser pumps to see how much water flow they create at this head with a 2,000 cubic inch per minute air pump. If the geyser lifts water easily, I am thinking of raising and enlarging the refugia.

 

But there are other issues. Large air volume from a geyser pump shooting water into the refugia may be noisy, and I may need to build a box to dampen this noise. I could even use the escaping air flow to power something. If the box has the water outlet below the water line it may also handle any bubble popping/salt creep issues. When I have time I'll sketch up my idea for discussion.

 

Many things to work on.

 

Dave, I finished up my modelling on the piston pump, need to render a few images and I will post them for you...

 

On other things, I was thinking through how to accomplish surges with minimal lifting of water and this is what I thought of. The trays could be large area but only a few inche deep and would not rely on an actuation mechanism... just adequate design. Not sure if something like this would fit into your layout, because it would certainly take up space, but it might work out ok.

 

[zygote2k]

this is exactly how a dump bucket works on an ATS. you could geyser pump the water from below into the dump bucket to create the surge. I sold one of these ATS systems to Sean at F&F- maybe he's not using it anymore and you could use it for modeling purposes. just ask him.

[Chad]

this is exactly how a dump bucket works on an ATS. you could geyser pump the water from below into the dump bucket to create the surge.

 

I think that the short height (probably less than 12" max would do two things for you... first, both the water movement into the dump and the surge itself would not make a lot of noise and second, the short lift height means that it is wouldnt be a huge energy sink.

[zygote2k]

You can easily use a plastic roller tray- that's how we made them back in the day. You just need to make a counterweight and a cushion that the tray rests on to keep it quiet.

[dave w]

Dave, I finished up my modelling on the piston pump, need to render a few images and I will post them for you...

 

On other things, I was thinking through how to accomplish surges with minimal lifting of water and this is what I thought of. The trays could be large area but only a few inche deep and would not rely on an actuation mechanism... just adequate design. Not sure if something like this would fit into your layout, because it would certainly take up space, but it might work out ok.

 

 

This looks like a great shallow water design. It would enable me to run the refugia and dump buckets on just 6" or 8" of water. I would add more comments, but I put up 150 block today and am dead tired.

[dave w]

I think that the short height (probably less than 12" max would do two things for you... first, both the water movement into the dump and the surge itself would not make a lot of noise and second, the short lift height means that it is wouldnt be a huge energy sink.

 

I agree with you on both points. If geyser pumps lift large volumes of water just 12" or so and the refugia are large enough, I can turn over water with lower energy costs. Another idea, if I have four surge areas, I could put the corals that need the highest water flow around these surge zones, and the lower flow areas in between may only need to turn water over 10x per hour. I may not need a full 20x turnover on the whole tank as long as the critical organisms are getting the 20x or 25x per hour water flow they need in the surge zones.

[Coral Hind]

150 blocks, that's about an hours work. Let me know when the 10" and 8" ones are done, I might stop by and help with the 4" block.