sen5241b December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 Last weekend I did a 50% water change using Reef Crystals. I had never used this salt before. My alk has been chronically low but my cal and mag were always high. My cal has always been well over 400 and mag usually 1600 as far back as I can remember. I tested the water on Tuesday and my cal was at an all time low of 380 and my alk is barely 8 dkh! How is that even possible? I thought Reef Crystals salt was supposed to reduce the need for cal and other dosing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Ward December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 It doesn't reduce the need for dosing, it just comes with higher calcium out of the bucket than IO. 8dKH isn't horribly low (as I recall, 9 is recommended). 380 is low, but how long between the water change and your test? If you haven't been dosing, the corals could have consumed the calcium and alk. Mg will always have to be dosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b December 17, 2009 Author Share December 17, 2009 Tested three days after the 50% water change! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Ward December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 Tested three days after the 50% water change! And what are the levels in the water change water, what is your daily consumption, and did you continue to dose Ca, Alk, Mg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 Do you still have any of the new change water that you mixed up? What's the salinity on that? Did you check the parameters of the new mix before you used it? You might want to consider doing that whenever you open a new box or pail of salt, and especially when changing brands. Try mixing up a gallon of new stuff and take some measurements on it. That may give you some insight into what's going on. You're using RO/DI, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 why a 50% w/c? seems drastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryL December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 why a 50% w/c? seems drastic. agreed especially if changing brands. some corals are really sensitive to drastic changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 By the way, numbers from Billybeau1's latest salt tests posted over at RC on this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505 These numbers were last updated September 30, 2009 and represent measurements taken when saltwater was mixed to SG 1.0264. The numbers for IO are consistent with my measurements using RO/DI water (for calcium and alkalinity, at least. I've not measured magnesium of my salt mix in a long while). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 My measurements for IO agree with that too. The chart helps to show that it's the best value out there IMO. Less than half the cost (sometimes 1/3) of some of those other salt mixes for basically the same thing. Regarding Reef Crystals, as Brian said it does not reduce the need for dosing. Depending on your alkalinity consumption rate, you could lose as much as 1-2 DKH/day if you have high calcium/carbonate demands. My system falls about 1 DKH/day if my calcium reactor isn't running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b December 17, 2009 Author Share December 17, 2009 By the way, numbers from Billybeau1's latest salt tests posted over at RC on this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505 These numbers were last updated September 30, 2009 and represent measurements taken when saltwater was mixed to SG 1.0264. The numbers for IO are consistent with my measurements using RO/DI water (for calcium and alkalinity, at least. I've not measured magnesium of my salt mix in a long while). I did a 50% change because I hadn't done a change in over a month. Looking at Reef Crystals on that chart-- my cal down to 380 and alk at 8dkh only 3 days after a 50% change still don't make sense. I'm thinking I need to log dosing and test results everyday and try to discern a pattern here. I've never dosed cal before (only alk) maybe my tank has just reached a point where I need to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidm December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 I used to use reef crystals but then switched (to Tropic Marin Pro) after reef crystals had a string of bad batches with low alk (I hope I'm remembering this correctly). It was abourt 2-3 yrs ago. I also agree a 50% water change with a new salt could be a drastic change. Hope this helps. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 I've never dosed cal before (only alk) maybe my tank has just reached a point where I need to start. How are you dosing alk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b December 17, 2009 Author Share December 17, 2009 How are you dosing alk? I'm using UN-baked baking soda. Occasionally I use baked baking soda if the Ph gets low but Ph in my tank is usually stable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 Why not do weekly water changes too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amuze December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 (edited) By the way, numbers from Billybeau1's latest salt tests posted over at RC on this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505 These numbers were last updated September 30, 2009 and represent measurements taken when saltwater was mixed to SG 1.0264. The numbers for IO are consistent with my measurements using RO/DI water (for calcium and alkalinity, at least. I've not measured magnesium of my salt mix in a long while). Brightwell salt measured Ca 460, Alk 10-11, Mg 1380 when mixed with 10gal of RODI. Salinity is 1.026. It always comes out to this. So those numbers are a bit off. Not sure why and don't really care, but wanted to point out what it measures out to for me 24 hours after I've mixed the water is different than what that chart says. Can't comment on the other salts. Edited December 17, 2009 by audible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b December 17, 2009 Author Share December 17, 2009 Why not do weekly water changes too? Because I'm lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 Brightwell salt measured Ca 460, Alk 10-11, Mg 1380 when mixed with 10gal of RODI. Salinity is 1.026. It always comes out to this. So those numbers are a bit off. Not sure why and don't really care, but wanted to point out what it measures out to for me 24 hours after I've mixed the water is different than what that chart says. Can't comment on the other salts. You should send this note on to Billybeau1 over at RC. This table has been around a while and the numbers for Brightwell may be old and in need of an update. It would be nice if the table had the month & year of the test. Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Camaron December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 I was about to say, thats not what i had seen brightwell users report, i do want to try that salt but most likely will be going back to reef crystals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBoy98 December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 Wow, IO is really that now? I might switch from D2D to back to IO if that's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 My last measurement on IO was 380 calcium and 11 dKH alk. That was quite a while back, though. The difference between 380 and 400 is probably within the range of test kit error. So, yes, IO really is like that. Throw in a little calcium chloride to boost calcium (I run 430-450 ppm there), and you're golden easily and inexpensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveS December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 One thing to factor in is the parameters of the FRESH water you are using to mix up the salt water. Case in point- my tank pH was always low. Like 7.8 and sometimes lower and I top off 1G+ a day with kalk. Turns out the pH of the water coming from my well is like 6.0 or something stupid low like that. I'm about to add a whole house neutralizer to save not only the fish but my copper pipes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 One thing to factor in is the parameters of the FRESH water you are using to mix up the salt water. Case in point- my tank pH was always low. Like 7.8 and sometimes lower and I top off 1G+ a day with kalk. Turns out the pH of the water coming from my well is like 6.0 or something stupid low like that. I'm about to add a whole house neutralizer to save not only the fish but my copper pipes as well. Dave, fresh water is not buffered and the pH can shift wildly with simple exposure to household air or even blowing bubbles into it through a straw. You really can't use the pH of fresh water to determine the pH of your final salt water which is heavily buffered. Take a look here: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.php#8 From it: 1. The pH of totally pure water is around 7 (with the exact value depending on temperature). As carbon dioxide from the atmosphere enters the water, the pH drops into the 6’s and even into the 5’s, depending on the amount of CO2. At saturation with the level of CO2 in normal (outside) air, the pH would be about 5.66. Indoor air often has even more CO2, and the pH can drop a bit lower, into the 5’s. Consequently, the pH of highly purified water coming from an RO/DI unit is expected to be in the pH 5-7 range. 2. The pH of highly purified water is not accurately measured by test kits, or by pH meters. There are several different reasons for this, including the fact that highly purified water has very little buffering capacity, so its pH is easily changed. Even the acidity or basicity of a pH test kit’s indicator dye is enough to alter pure water’s measured pH. As for pH meters, the probes themselves do not function well in the very low ionic strength of pure freshwater, and trace impurities on them can swing the pH around quite a bit. 3. The pH of the combination of two solutions does not necessarily reflect the average (not even a weighted average) of their two pH values. The final pH of a mixture may actually not even be between the pH’s of the two solutions when combined. Consequently, adding pH 7 pure water to pH 8.2 seawater may not even result in a pH below 8.2, but rather might be higher than 8.2 (for complex reasons relating to the acidity of bicarbonate in seawater vs. freshwater). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveS December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 So, not questioning anything you are saying but here's the empirical data that I have: 1) copper leeching from the house pipes 2) crude well water pH test strip measuring very low pH 3) pH of mixed salt waterusing IO (with water that has sat around long enough to off gas CO2) coming in around 7.6ish 4) chronically lower alk that I'd like 7-8 dKh despite kalk dripping Maybe this is all coincidence but something tells me the source water isn't helping my parameters. Yes agreed that acidic fresh water could still mix to create non-acidic salt water but wouldn't that then just equate to lower alk since the buffering has been consumed as part of bringing the pH back up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudyCDX1 December 17, 2009 Share December 17, 2009 What were the parameters RIGHT BEFORE you decided to do a 50% water change. What drove you to consider a 50% water change with a different salt mix? While it might be the salt, I think we all need to consider our husbandry consistency and patience when planning out changes that will improve our systems. Just a general comment..................sorry if it seems like a rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami December 18, 2009 Share December 18, 2009 So, not questioning anything you are saying but here's the empirical data that I have: 1) copper leeching from the house pipes 2) crude well water pH test strip measuring very low pH 3) pH of mixed salt waterusing IO (with water that has sat around long enough to off gas CO2) coming in around 7.6ish 4) chronically lower alk that I'd like 7-8 dKh despite kalk dripping Maybe this is all coincidence but something tells me the source water isn't helping my parameters. Yes agreed that acidic fresh water could still mix to create non-acidic salt water but wouldn't that then just equate to lower alk since the buffering has been consumed as part of bringing the pH back up? The comment actually pertained to the pH of RO/DI water (which is generally what most of us use to mix our salt water), Dave, not to the quality of nor the corrosive nature of well water in Great Falls. I used to have a house off the north end of Seneca Road and was on well and septic there. The water had a lot of iron as I recall. While it could be coming from your pipes, copper can come from other sources, too. For example, if you're on septic, copper can also leach into the ground water from nearby septic fields. I suppose that you've had somebody look at your pipes to confirm their corroding? That's bad news if they are. The one thing I don't miss about the home in Great Falls is all of the processing and maintenance that had to go on to get halfway decent tasting water in the house and to get decent water pressure. Pure water pH is very susceptible to wide variation in pH. For most of us that use RO/DI, measuring the pH of our source water is meaningless as it has virtually no buffering capacity. I'm pretty sure that you process your water before mixing up your change water, don't you? For example, I just took a sample of my RO/DI that's been sitting around and the pH was around 6.7. I stirred it up for about 5 seconds to introduce some air into it and the pH was down to 5.7. Of course, these measurements were with a pH probe so they probably mean little since they really aren't meant to measure the pH of deionized water. By the way, what's the pH of your kalkwasser effluent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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