SPS Blue coloration

[Boret]

I can get the blue color out of my sps!!!

 

My tank is doing great (crossing my finger) and I am getting great growth, no algae problems, and pretty stable parameters.

• Temp: 77.5-78.5
  
• Salinity: 1.026
  
• pH: 8.10-8.30
  
• Nitrate: ~10 (I am not sure if I differentiate the yellow properly)
  
• Phos: 0
  
• Ca: 480
  
• Alk: 12 (kind of high)
  
• Mg: 1400
  

 

I use Brightwell NeoMarine Salt (Reef Crystals was leaving a lot of residue in the mixing tank and had high Alk to start with - I stop using it 3 months ago)

 

As far as light I use a single 400W 20K Radium MH and 4 24" T12 VHO Super Actinics. I really can't get any bluer than that!

Still, the predominant color is green.

Even my Oregon tort has green hues.

My Blue Matrix is completely green. I can't see any blue in the Blue Milli, I barely see blue tips in the Valida, Roscos, Joe the Coral, etc...

 

So I started dosing Potassium (very carefully as I didn't get a Potassium test kit yet ... I know I know) half the recommended low dosage.

I have been doing so for only 2 weeks and I can't tell yet if it is doing anything. At least is not having any adverse effect on the tank.

 

Today Origami stop by and I presented him with my problem and he was also puzzled by it, however, being the smart guy that he is, he asked me about my photo period. That was one thing I really didn't think about. I currently run the MH for 6 hours, 2 VHOs stay on for 10 and a half hours and the other 2 VHOs stay on 9 and a half.

 

I decided to increase the MH to 7 hours and throughout the next few weeks reach 8 hours.

 

Do any of you have any experience with shorter photo periods affecting coloration? Specifically Blue coloration?

Any advice?

 

Thanks in advanced for any thoughts and input.

 

B.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Boret

[davelin315]

I know that green can be a reaction to nutrient levels, maybe those slight nitrates you are seeing are the cause?

[Sikryd]

Alkalinity that high running any kind of LN system will cause the tips to burn and the blues to not come out as much.

10 to 1 says that if you lower your alk to the 8-9ish range you should have better luck.

 

I highly doubt that you will have much if any changes to your blues from the photoperiod. Photoinibition happens a lot sooner (3-4 hours is sometimes enough) than people think. Just because a coral is in light for a long duration, doesn't mean that it is as intense as our lights, or that they use it all.

 

That and I would check your par levels. When I had lower par levels (<300) my blues weren't as nice and vibrant as when I had them in >400 par.

 

It'll be interesting to see how you get them to come back since I had some of the same issues awhile back and solved it using potassium, although my levels where low already, and my alk was in the recommended 7-9 range using LN (ie. vodka/brightwells)

[Boret]

What would be a better way to lower Alk, reduce Kalk dosing or Ca Reactor effluent? Or both?

[Boret]

I have both MicroBacter 7 and Vodka. I also have the vodka dosing regime for my water volume but I haven't started yet on Vodka. Just been doing the MB7. Were you using something different Sikryd?

[Boret]

Also, I don't see any burnt tips.

[Coral Hind]

How old is the MH bulb?

[Boret]

How old is the MH bulb?

 

I put it in on March 18th 2009 (8 months old). I use electronic ballast so I am not overdriving it. I should have few more months of use.

I was getting 1500 par an inch below the water, and about 250 at 23" depth about 3 months ago.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Boret

[Sikryd]

I have both MicroBacter 7 and Vodka. I also have the vodka dosing regime for my water volume but I haven't started yet on Vodka. Just been doing the MB7. Were you using something different Sikryd?

 

I've been doing Brightwells MB and Fuel

 

 

Also, I don't see any burnt tips.

 

I wouldn't imagine you would have "burnt" tips if it has been kept at 12. Just like a lot of guys have good results running their alk in that range with decent-good coloration. The burnt tips usually won't happen if it has been kept that high.

I forget where I read it, but there was an article on ULN systems and running alk on the lower scale for some reason. I'm just guessing that might have something to do with your lack of vibrance in your blues.

 

I don't run a calcium reactor or kalk so I can't really give you any good personal experience on the best way to lower the alk.

[Sikryd]

Your parameters are exactly the same as mine are btw - except for my alk has always been in the 7-8 range.

The bright blues on my tenius's were usually what people commented on, so I am assuming that would be a good place to start.

[Boret]

I guess is nutrients. I will get a new nitrate test kit, just in case and measure again to be certain.

I was a bit concerned on actually running already LN because my zoas were melting... either that or the high alk is affecting them. An interesting thing is tubs blues and a few other zoas thrive but others don't.

Nonetheless, I will see what happens with 7 hours of MH instead of 6.

I have Fuel as well but have not used it.

My ORP stays around 310-330. With the addition of the Ozone Reactor I hope to get to the 400 range.

I don't know... I am a bit confused with the whole thing. The corals seem to be thriving, I get great polyp extension. Plenty of growth. The only issue is with Zoas (and from what I've been told they like "dirtier" water) and not being able to get the blue colors I see in other tanks. Who knows.... this hobby is such a mystery sometimes.

[Sikryd]

My nitrates were ~20 when I had SPS (prior to the heater breakage that caused ALL of their demise :( )

ORP is in the same range as yours.

 

NO's in that range I would think would be less of an issue I would think, but who knows. Like you said this hobby is a mystery sometimes. What one person does in their tank and the results they get, can be totally different in another IDENTICAL tank and setup. Just par for the course in this hobby.

It'll be nice to see what changes you make and where it gets you.

 

Everything I have read on LN systems is to keep the ALK in the 7-8ish range though, but who knows really since there are VERY, VERY true ULN's out there, and even when they are done right the results differ. I also don't like the stability issues some people seem to have, so I have been running a partial brightwell system. With the new tank, I'll probably ditch it altogether since I don't see any super distinguishing results that can justify the costs. Not to mention it will be one less thing I will have to maintain or dose.

 

I'll have to check out RC (I don't get on there much), to see what they have to say on there. I assume you put a thread up there too?

[DDiver]

I've been running the whole NeoZeo shebang since day one of my 120 I and can attest for potassium helping with the blues because I never really bothered to dose it in the beginning until I noticed my blues weren't looking that great.this is because the zeolithic rocks absorbs potassium and was depleting the levels in my tank..once I started dosing on the regular I defintely noticed that my blues were looking pretty nice and I've been dosing it since..

 

Fwiw here are my params

nitrates-undetectable

phosphates-.01

alk-8dkh

cal-400

mg-1400

 

I run Phoenix 14ks and I couldn't be any happier with my colors..

[basser9]

OREGON torts are pretty easy to keep blue but you are at nitrate levels that can cause Browning or greening.

Pretty simple to get 10ppm down in the 1ppm or lower either add a deep sand bed somewhere or start a sulfur reactor.

Get seachems low range nitrate kit to check whats going on really simple theres no real mysteries to our tanks anymore.

Addind some ozone can help alot also.

[Boret]

My nitrates were ~20 when I had SPS (prior to the heater breakage that caused ALL of their demise :( )

ORP is in the same range as yours.

 

NO's in that range I would think would be less of an issue I would think, but who knows. Like you said this hobby is a mystery sometimes. What one person does in their tank and the results they get, can be totally different in another IDENTICAL tank and setup. Just par for the course in this hobby.

It'll be nice to see what changes you make and where it gets you.

 

Everything I have read on LN systems is to keep the ALK in the 7-8ish range though, but who knows really since there are VERY, VERY true ULN's out there, and even when they are done right the results differ. I also don't like the stability issues some people seem to have, so I have been running a partial brightwell system. With the new tank, I'll probably ditch it altogether since I don't see any super distinguishing results that can justify the costs. Not to mention it will be one less thing I will have to maintain or dose.

 

I'll have to check out RC (I don't get on there much), to see what they have to say on there. I assume you put a thread up there too?

 

I haven't started a thread in RC. If it is nitrates I should be able to fix it. If after reducing Nitrates to 0 I still don't get the "blues" then I might post there.

The interesting thing is that at this point it could be several things (or a combination of them):

 

1. Nitrates (at 10 doesn't seem a high number but maybe it is... I am definitely getting a lot of green)

2. High ALK. At 12 I am probably at the highest I should be. Only livestock that might be affected by it are some of the Zoas.

3. Short photoperiod. Been running MH for 6 hours. I just increased to 7. We will see what happens. I might also do a "cloudy" day per week (no MH) see if that might also help.

4. Low Potassium. I will know if I am low once I get the test kit. I started dosing for the last 4 days, I will keep an eye for progress.

 

I've been running the whole NeoZeo shebang since day one of my 120 I and can attest for potassium helping with the blues because I never really bothered to dose it in the beginning until I noticed my blues weren't looking that great.this is because the zeolithic rocks absorbs potassium and was depleting the levels in my tank..once I started dosing on the regular I defintely noticed that my blues were looking pretty nice and I've been dosing it since..

 

Fwiw here are my params

nitrates-undetectable

phosphates-.01

alk-8dkh

cal-400

mg-1400

 

I run Phoenix 14ks and I couldn't be any happier with my colors..

 

Hopefully I will see some progress with the potassium, but I should get the test kit to find out if I am really in need of it and how much I might need to truly dose. You've seen the growth in my tank.... it just doesn't seem that I am that off balance. Wouldn't you say?

 

OREGON torts are pretty easy to keep blue but you are at nitrate levels that can cause Browning or greening.

Pretty simple to get 10ppm down in the 1ppm or lower either add a deep sand bed somewhere or start a sulfur reactor.

Get seachems low range nitrate kit to check whats going on really simple theres no real mysteries to our tanks anymore.

Addind some ozone can help alot also.

 

I already built the Sulfur Reactor (RC DIY instructions) but have not purchased the media yet.

I will get Seachems low range Nitrate test kit to see where I am.

 

 

Thanks for all the comments and advice!!

B.

[bbyatv]

I struggled to get blues in my tank for a long while. I have done a ton of research.

 

Here are some links that I found helpful.

 

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/d_riddle_042698.html

 

http://www.reefcorner.com/Manual/sps_coloration.htm

 

I would reccomend this CD.

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/3/media

 

I own a copy if you want to borrow it.

 

Bruce

[zygote2k]

I guess is nutrients. I will get a new nitrate test kit, just in case and measure again to be certain.

I was a bit concerned on actually running already LN because my zoas were melting... either that or the high alk is affecting them. An interesting thing is tubs blues and a few other zoas thrive but others don't.

Nonetheless, I will see what happens with 7 hours of MH instead of 6.

I have Fuel as well but have not used it.

My ORP stays around 310-330. With the addition of the Ozone Reactor I hope to get to the 400 range.

I don't know... I am a bit confused with the whole thing. The corals seem to be thriving, I get great polyp extension. Plenty of growth. The only issue is with Zoas (and from what I've been told they like "dirtier" water) and not being able to get the blue colors I see in other tanks. Who knows.... this hobby is such a mystery sometimes.

 

Sounds like your tank is doing fine- don't 'fix' it if it ain't broke. You need to find out what compound the blue pigments are made of. Then you need to find out where they occur naturally. Maybe they can be added as a trace element or maybe there is some sort of planktonic life form that is needed to keep the blue pigments. Maybe it is the spectrum or coloration of your lights. Have you ever tried 10k to see what the 'true' color of your corals are? Maybe the 'blue' corals are only blue under intense blue lights.

Zoas are lagoon or deeper water corals that aren't exposed to the intensity of light that we try to replicate in our tanks. I have had some zoas 'melt' and some right next to the melted ones do fine. I think that more information is needed about zoas in general.

What's the benefit of running ORP at 400? If it stays around 310, it sounds like it is normal and stable. Is there a benefit to artificially raising the ORP values in a tank?

FWIW, my Cali Tort and my Oregon Tort are really blue. My Tubs Zoas stay blue too. I don't know what my ORP is but I do have a probe....

What does 'Fuel' do?

[Origami]

Some hobbyist observations suggest that ULN (from carbon dosing (vodka, etc)) + high alk = burnt SPS tips. I don't think that's what is going on here.

 

Boret, I had mentioned that I had experience with one milli that went from green to sky blue under a longer photoperiod (8 - 10 hrs at brightest) and back to green with a lower photoperiod (4 hrs @ brightest). That's why I suggested it might be worth trying out.

 

An interesting thought is that more photosynthesis is possible with longer days. This would shift the balance of nutrient consumption, competition, and growth, possibly resulting in a color change.

 

I just added an hour to my brightest cycle again to see what impact it has on my milli over the next few weeks....

[lhcorals]

I am running my MH (3) 250 watt 10 hours a day and the T-5's (8) 39 watt's 11 hours.

 

Nitrates: 10

Phosphates: undetectable

calcium: 430

Mag: 1450

PH: 8.2

Temp: 78/80

 

My color's are great on my corals. My Oregon tort is really blue. The only problem we had with Alk is in my wifes 25 gal nano. I did not know she was adding Alk to it . All her Zoo's melted and the sps just started bleaching. The fish did not fare well either. Her Alk was at 15, she does not put anything in the tank anymore. This happened about a year and a half ago.

Edited November 15, 2009 by lhcorals

[DDiver]

U have great growth Boret, but growth is nothing if u don't have the colors.. the potassium kit apparently are a pita and hard to get an accurate reading.I would send a sample to AWT..I've never ran Radiums so I can't say if it's the spectrums but it could play a role..but I've have seen some tanks that run Radiums that are predominantly green...

[davelin315]

I run Helios 20,000K which are very similar to the Radiums and they have excellent color rendition for blue. The pigment of the corals will reflect the light color that matches them as well as absorb it, that's why you see the blue coloration. If yours are green, that means that the pigments and zooxanthellae that are blue are being overtaken by green in response to (my guess) nutrients in your water. My tank has trouble showing some reds and yellows because they are low in the 650 and 570nm wavelengths so if I want to really bring out a red color I have to add supplemental lighting. On the other hand, indigo and blue which are between 445 and 470nm are very high for my bulbs, so the color rendition for corals with those colors is outstanding. If you're running radiums then you'll have about the same color as me so it's not the bulbs (unless they're defective), it's the pigments and zooxanthellae adjusting. Now, that said, the bulbs are 8 months old so they're probably shifting a bit so that might account for it, but there's a lot of variables involved here.

[Boret]

Bruce, thanks for the links. I will read them an comment.

In the first article the mentioned better coloration around the 10 dKh mark for alkalinity.

 

I guess it will have to be a bit of trial an error.

 

I think the bulbs are ok (Par readings were fine about 2-3 months ago). I was planing on changing them at the 1 year mark. I have had the green pigmentation issue for a long time so I do not think is a matter of lights... but I am trying the longer photo period to see if it makes a difference. I have been at 6 hours for the MH for a long time. I increased yesterday to 7, but that is still far from lhcorals's 10 hours.

 

As far as the ORP Rob, even though it is a tough indicator (definitely not as straight forward as temp or pH) a higher number indicates more oxygen available in the water column. I can see how it goes as low as 180-200 when I feed and then slowly creeps back up to the 300+ numbers.

Ideally the ORP value in salt water aquariums should be kept between 350 and 390 mV. ORP levels below 300 mV are to be avoided. An oxidising environment is needed to convert any ammonia (NH3) to nitrites (NO2

[Boret]

In one of the articles that Bruce linked i found this:

 

We have noted that green fluorescent pigments may be produced under conditions of higher UV energy (about 30 microwatts per square centimeter per second).

 

I think that might be my case as I run 2 Super Actinic VHOs for 10 hrs and the other 2 for 9hrs.

I changed it so I run actinics only 1:30 before and after the main MH.

I already see more blue just one day without the VHOs!

 

I got a low range NO3 test and I am at 5.

I am also at 8 Alk and 400. From the 11 and 480 a month ago. This happened because I ran out of the Mg supplement, so I have not been dosing it automatically and rather sporadically (manual dosing).

I can see the zoas in better shape. I am going to stay off the Mg for a bit see how the tank responds.

[DDiver]

In one of the articles that Bruce linked i found this:

 

 

 

I think that might be my case as I run 2 Super Actinic VHOs for 10 hrs and the other 2 for 9hrs.

I changed it so I run actinics only 1:30 before and after the main MH.

I already see more blue just one day without the VHOs!

 

I got a low range NO3 test and I am at 5.

I am also at 8 Alk and 400. From the 11 and 480 a month ago. This happened because I ran out of the Mg supplement, so I have not been dosing it automatically and rather sporadically (manual dosing).

I can see the zoas in better shape. I am going to stay off the Mg for a bit see how the tank responds.

interesting....

[Coral Hind]

I am going to stay off the Mg for a bit see how the tank responds.

 

What was the reasoning behind stopping the Mg additions?