paul b August 17, 2009 Share August 17, 2009 Every time I dive I think of all the ways I can make my tank more like the sea I get overwhelmed. First of all the sea is deep. Our animals know that they are in very shallow water and they would never venture into such shallow water if they had a choice. At the waters edge and in tide pools we find only tiny baby fish, you never find a full grown tang in water 2 feet deep. The sea is full of plankton and baby fish, they are all over the place and fish never go hungry. Fish eat all day long and almost never get enough in one meal to fill them. Their intestines are very short and are designed to process a little food continousely. Carnivores eat fresh "whole" fish. Herbivores eat "mostly" fresh algae, but the algae in the sea is also full of pods, worms, shrimp and fish fry. The sea is full of danger which gives the animals plenty of exercize. They are constantly fighting for food or escaping preditors. They are never just hanging out looking out the glass The sea is constantly in motion, back and fourth motion, sometimes much more motion than we could ever provide in a tank. I have seen 12' brain corals toppled over after a storm. The same storm that deposited 30' sailboats up the side of a mountain. These storms break off weak pieces of coral and make room for more. They also sweep debris out of coral pores. Corals can deal with storms by just closing and without storms, corals would be covered with detritus. The sun does not instantly shine or go out as it does in most of our tanks, it also does not shine every day. Sometimes days go by with hardly any light. Lightning hits the sea every few seconds. I don't know if that helps or hurts. And the sea has every element on earth disolved into it as well as all the strains of bacteria. Some good, others not so good. Of all of these things there are only a few we have control of. I think we do a fairly good job but these factors are the reason some people have huge problems. We can't make up for the shallow water by providing more light but we can feed better, add bacteria from the sea, try better circulation, stir things up occasionally and know our limitations. We can't always keep everything. But we try to keep the things we think we can keep. Have a great day. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE August 17, 2009 Share August 17, 2009 Thanks a lot for this, it gave a lot to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b August 17, 2009 Author Share August 17, 2009 See all of the tiny fry to the left of the nurse shark? They are all over the place on a healthy reef. This is what fish snack on all day. Whole, fresh fish, guts, skeleton and all. From the Cayman Islands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme_tooth_decay August 17, 2009 Share August 17, 2009 To me, there isn't and hasn't ever been any comparison between my tanks and the ocean. There are more differences than similarities between any reef tank I have ever seen and the ocean. I don't strive for my tank to be "natural", because, as you point out, that is completely impossible. I just try to have it be something I enjoy. tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUsnakebyte August 17, 2009 Share August 17, 2009 The reasons you listed above - and many more that aren't listed - are almost certainly why we have not closed the life cycle of over 99% of ocean life in captivity. My answer to your question, "How is the sea like our tank?" is that there is barely a shred of true resemblance. Oh, and I have seen full-grown tangs in 2 feet of water, but it was on a shore dive at low tide. However, they certainly were not restricted there... Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watson_barrett August 17, 2009 Share August 17, 2009 I have seen an 8' mantaray in less than 2' of water at tumon bay in guam and thousands of 1' tangs, angels, ect, ect.... my answer, who cares, we have established a suitable process on how to keep these delicate animals and even have them thriving! we are in a way expanding these animals genetic chain by keeping them in an alternative environment, all be it very slightly and not immediately recognizable... but hey you never know what/when some extreem reefer is going to have a breakthrough or revolutary discover in our altered and controled environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman August 17, 2009 Share August 17, 2009 Are there any saltwater fish that we could breed easily for food? I would love to have my fish able to chase around little tiny fish for food. Even though they would likely knock branches off my corals. One of them knocked a 1/2" thick branch off a bali tri-color just the other day. I would also love to make real waves - but I'm always afraid the tank might fall apart. I CAN do it; with the Vortech's running in opposition, I had quite a storm surge sloshing over my Calfo overflow. But I figured over the long run - my AGA tank might not appreciate it. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b August 17, 2009 Author Share August 17, 2009 (edited) I don't strive for my tank to be "natural", because, as you point out, that is completely impossible. I just try to have it be something I enjoy. Thats the most important part Tim. I have seen an 8' mantaray in less than 2' of water at tumon bay in guam and thousands of 1' tangs, angels, ect, ect.... You may find tangs in shallow water searching for food but they normally are much deeper. The huge schools of them stay for the most part in deeper water. Not too deep because they are there for the algae. I doubt they would stay in that shallow water for their entire lives if they have a choice. My answer to your question, "How is the sea like our tank?" is that there is barely a shred of true resemblance. Actually, the reason for the thread was not to question weather our tanks look like the ocean or can look like the ocean. It was just an idea for a discussion. I have been diving and have a reef tank both for over 40 years and I just thought it would be interesting to compare. Edited August 17, 2009 by paul b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUsnakebyte August 17, 2009 Share August 17, 2009 (edited) my answer, who cares, we have established a suitable process on how to keep these delicate animals and even have them thriving! we are in a way expanding these animals genetic chain by keeping them in an alternative environment, all be it very slightly and not immediately recognizable... but hey you never know what/when some extreem reefer is going to have a breakthrough or revolutary discover in our altered and controled environment. Unless you have active sexual reproduction, nothing is happening with the "genetic chain". A fish is plucked from a wild reef, sits in captivity and then dies. No genetic material was exchanged. It may be splitting hairs, but I would say that the majority of marine animals we keep probably are not thriving, and I am defining thriving by closing the captive lifecycle - which for more than 99% we have not done yet. Do we know more now than we use to? Absolutely. Can we keep species that were once thought impossible? Without a doubt. We certainly take less from wild reefs through captive propagation. But look at a captive coral skeleton and then look at its wild counterpart - the two are barely comparable. Wild coral skeletons are more robust, thicker, more well-developed septa, etc. And, then there is the issue of reproduction - again, closing the captive life cycle. Reproduction is a luxury for most all invertebrates, and many fish as well - in fact, pretty much all life (unless you are spawning as a last ditch effort to pass on your genes right before you die...). Mike Edited August 17, 2009 by OUsnakebyte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE August 17, 2009 Share August 17, 2009 Are there any saltwater fish that we could breed easily for food? I would love to have my fish able to chase around little tiny fish for food. Even though they would likely knock branches off my corals. One of them knocked a 1/2" thick branch off a bali tri-color just the other day. Acclimate Mollies to salt water and put them in another tank. Just scoop out the fry every once in a while. I'm planning on doing this for my cuttles when they get to week 2 or 3, though not as a sole diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b August 17, 2009 Author Share August 17, 2009 It may be splitting hairs, but I would say that the majority of marine animals we keep probably are not thriving, You are definately correct with this although I have 4 pairs spawning now in my reef but I will not raise the fry. Don't do that anymore as it is too time consuming. But the fact that they are spawning proves to me that they are healthy. Living for 15 years and more is another indication they are healthy. As for breeding fish to feed to your tank, that is really time consuming and the fish that will readily spawn in a tank like mollies would be far too few to accomplish anything useful. I feed saltwater fish eggs and live worms. It is the only way I know to get fish into excellent, breeding health. I have found that that is the easiest way to get fish to spawn. If your fish are not spawning or making spawning gestures, they are not as healthy as you believe them to be. This, of course does not work for all fish. Egg scatters will not usually spawn in a tank. This is also one reason why tangs are considered ich magnets. They are always stressed in captivity. If they were not, they would be spawning as they do all the time in the sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watson_barrett August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 We ARE altering genetic chains, it is a proven fact, tank raised percs have transformed in just the few short years that hobbiest have been breeding them...when was the last time you saw an all black perc while snorkeling or diving......????? And tropical fish survival rate is MUCH higher in a PROPER captive environment that it would be out in the wild...heck fish have to lay thousands of eggs just to get a fraction iof a fraction n survival rate (same w/ coral) and yet hobbiest can get 20-30 fry to survive just one hatchling...and have GSPs, clove polypes, and the like completely take over a tank...i would say we are doing pretty darn good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 We ARE altering genetic chains, it is a proven fact, tank raised percs have transformed in just the few short years that hobbiest have been breeding them...when was the last time you saw an all black perc while snorkeling or diving......????? And tropical fish survival rate is MUCH higher in a PROPER captive environment that it would be out in the wild...heck fish have to lay thousands of eggs just to get a fraction iof a fraction n survival rate (same w/ coral) and yet hobbiest can get 20-30 fry to survive just one hatchling...and have GSPs, clove polypes, and the like completely take over a tank...i would say we are doing pretty darn good... This is where my stumbling point is. What exactly are you basing your "pretty darn good" off of? If it's trying to replicate the wild, we obviously aren't necessarily doing a good job because in the wild, GSP, clove polyps, etc wouldn't take over. And yes, we do alter genetic chains when we breed animals, such as and mainly clowns. How is expanding animals genetic chains a "good thing"? After all, we are only expanding them in captivity which may be good for us, but not necessarily for them. My Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUsnakebyte August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 You are definately correct with this although I have 4 pairs spawning now in my reef but I will not raise the fry. Don't do that anymore as it is too time consuming. But the fact that they are spawning proves to me that they are healthy.Living for 15 years and more is another indication they are healthy. Yes, I was including those breeding in your tank as part of the 1%. And, the issue of healthy vs thriving - I was trying to say that if truly thriving (all needs met) energy would be put into reproduction. Of course, many of these may be environmental factors beyond our control. We ARE altering genetic chains, it is a proven fact, tank raised percs have transformed in just the few short years that hobbiest have been breeding them...when was the last time you saw an all black perc while snorkeling or diving......????? Ahhh, yes, inbred clowns. Sure, recessives are popping up making the designer colors. And so those are reproducing; I'll even say thriving - although, I wouldn't say it is in the best interest of long-term species survival (inbreeding depression). Again, those clowns are part of the 1% whose needs are being met. And tropical fish survival rate is MUCH higher in a PROPER captive environment that it would be out in the wild...heck fish have to lay thousands of eggs just to get a fraction iof a fraction n survival rate (same w/ coral) and yet hobbiest can get 20-30 fry to survive just one hatchling...and have GSPs, clove polypes, and the like completely take over a tank...i would say we are doing pretty darn good... Yes, but those fishes' and corals' needs are being met in the wild since energy is being put into sexual reproduction. It is estimated that 60-80% of a polyp's yearly energy budget goes in to sexual reproduction - releasing one egg/sperm bundle each year. How many corals sexually reproduce in our care - not many. In fact, it is so rare it is a novelty when it does happen (P. dam. excluded...). The hobbiest successfully rearing 20-30 fry is meeting the needs of the 1%............... GSPs, clove polyps, etc. taking over = colony growth, nothing more. These animals have evolved the ability to sexually reproduce - and they don't. Why? There is something they need that we are not providing. I said above we are miles ahead of where we were in terms of husbandry, and the fragging and trading/selling of corals that were once "impossible" is a testament to that. However, the original thread title was, "How is the sea like our tank?" My original reply was not even close due to the factors I have listed above and not being able to close the life cycle of 99% of what we display. But, as many people have already pointed out, if that's not what you are going for, then fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 I think if we were to introduce some of these captive bred fish into the oceans they would die a quick death. Just because we have success in captive breeding does not mean that we can repopulate the ocean with these fish. What we do is we shelter and nurture these fish and the grow up without the pressures of the wild on them - if only one or two offspring survive from each clutch, how many of those that didn't make it are actually taken down by some sort of predation versus simply not being healthy enough to survive? Probably the majority of them are eaten along the way, through no fault of their genetics or overall health, but simply because something ate them. Look at my tank - I have clowns that breed regularly and I have yet to see a single fry make it through to adulthood because I don't raise them separately and shelter them from harm. I would say that if you put a larval fish from the wild in with a larval fish from a captive breeder, the wild larval fish would outcompete the captive bred fish very quickly. It's kind of like looking at what we've done with companion animals - they have become so dependent on what we do that they will not survive in the wild for the most part. I know that feral cats live out there and stray dogs can survive on their own, but I'm talking about something like those designer clowns out there. Can you imagine a naked ORA clown trying to survive on the reef? That stark white body would get it nailed by a predator in a heartbeat. As far as captive bred food, just get spawning fish - pretty much any fish in the damselfish family (Pomicentridae) will breed regularly (clowns are considered to be damselfish, too) and will produce live food for your tank. You can also get breeding pairs of shrimp, crabs, snails, etc. All of these will offer "live" food to your tank. Before I moved I had breeding astreas, fire shrimp, cleaner shrimp, coral banded shrimp, hermit crabs, urchins, yellow-tail damsels, and dusky jawfish in my 125. They would regularly broadcast gametes or hatch larvae, feeding the tank. Back to the original question - how does my tank resemble the ocean? Well, it's got inhabitants from the ocean that I love to watch all day long and that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugar Magnolia August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 Acclimate Mollies to salt water and put them in another tank. Just scoop out the fry every once in a while. I'm planning on doing this for my cuttles when they get to week 2 or 3, though not as a sole diet. Why not just leave them in the tank? The SW tank in the waiting room at the local hospital does this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lazar August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 Why not just leave them in the tank? The SW tank in the waiting room at the local hospital does this. I think the cuttlefish might eat the parent mollies if they are in the cuttlefish tank. Maybe you should raise clownfish instead of mollies, and feed all the baby Nemos to the cephamonsters. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshnarw August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 Since Dave's post got me to think about it...these are pets. Are we supposed to be recreating their wild habitat? My dogs don't go out hunting deer, and I don't ask my cat to chase mice or starve. Hilary's birds aren't flying through the house and landing in trees, and Ctenophore's snake gets dead, lab raised mice. My wife's gecko gets crickets from a refrigerated can. To dismiss the argument about genetics - get out your Bob Barker signs...most of our dogs and cats can't reproduce. Why should a fish or coral be any different, whether that's due to an operation, or simply meeting only the needs of it to survive and grow? In every other situation, we've realized that we cannot possibly reproduce the natural environment to such an extent that the animal knows no difference. We've stopped trying, or try minimally, simply for our own aesthetics. I, for one, am not concerned with the concept of "thriving" either. Do we really think ANY pet we keep thrives...excepting maybe a dog or cat? I think we're also at the point of acceptance that animals will always be better off in the wild than in our houses. Do they survive? Seem healthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capsfan August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 I agree with dshnarw. They are pets and we should treat them as such. Sure it is nice to have their habitat replicated as much as possible, but we can only get so close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul b August 18, 2009 Author Share August 18, 2009 My tank actually does "resemble" to ocean to an extent. I collected all of the rocks (and bottles) in the ocean, much of the water comes from the ocean, I collect bacteria, pods, seaweed, snails, crabs and worms in the ocean to dump in my tank. Just today I collected water, pods and a load of butterflies, pipefish, puffers and boxfish. Some of the mud with associated bacteria also went into my tank. I simulate typhoons with a diatom filter and feed the fish and corals food from the sea which many times I collect. Of course it can not be the ocean but I try to get it as natural as I can. I believe my natural method is why it has lasted so long with no diseases or any other problems. I also have barnacles in there along with an algae trough, filled mainly with seaweed from the sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vader August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 My tank is nothing like the sea.....and I'm thankful.......The animals I have are feed, they are healthy and I really enjoy watching my tank grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUsnakebyte August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 (edited) Whoah.... I never meant to imply we are all doing terrible jobs b/c we have not recreated the ocean to 100% of its capacity b/c corals and fish are not spawning - and are therefore suffering under our care. I realize these are pets in a glass box of water and understand the challenges associated with trying to replicate a natural habitat - and some parts of the natural habitat (I'm thinking of predation here) you don't want since it would lead to stress; life in the wild is no picnic. And, honestly, comparing the needs of reptiles and domesticated mammals to that of a coral - well, I get stuck in that arguement here at work all too often... Please don't get me started on the idea of coral enrichment... The original post was "How is the sea like our tank?" As I have said, ad nauseum, they aren't even a close resemblance, and I was using the reproductive biology of our inhabitants for support. And, as has already been pointed out.... most of us don't care. We have these b/c we like to watch the fish swim and the coral grow - and that is perfectly fine. Paul - I appreciate that you go above and beyond what the average reefer does, and I'm sure your tank inhabitants are healthy. However, even with the extra effort put in (and I'm not saying it's bad or that you are doing wrong), it is still miles away from a natural reef. Given your diving experience and original post in this thread, that is very evident to me. Where the heck are you located that you can go out and collect water, puffers, butterflies, pipefish and boxfish, etc...? Cheers Mike Edited August 18, 2009 by OUsnakebyte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vader August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 Whoah.... I never meant to imply we are all doing terrible jobs b/c we have not recreated the ocean to 100% of its capacity b/c corals and fish are not spawning - and are therefore suffering under our care. I realize these are pets in a glass box of water and understand the challenges associated with trying to replicate a natural habitat - and some parts of the natural habitat (I'm thinking of predation here) you don't want since it would lead to stress; life in the wild is no picnic. And, honestly, comparing the needs of reptiles and domesticated mammals to that of a coral - well, I get stuck in that arguement here at work all too often... Please don't get me started on the idea of coral enrichment... The original post was "How is the sea like our tank?" As I have said, ad nauseum, they aren't even a close resemblance, and I was using the reproductive biology of our inhabitants for support. And, as has already been pointed out.... most of us don't care. We have these b/c we like to watch the fish swim and the coral grow - and that is perfectly fine. Paul - I appreciate that you go above and beyond what the average reefer does, and I'm sure your tank inhabitants are healthy. However, even with the extra effort put in (and I'm not saying it's bad or that you are doing wrong), it is still miles away from a natural reef. Given your diving experience and original post in this thread, that is very evident to me. Where the heck are you located that you can go out and collect water, puffers, butterflies, pipefish and boxfish, etc...? Cheers Mike Sorry Mike if I gave you the wrong impression, I wasn't implying anything by my post, other than what the thread started off with. I have spent a lot of time at sea and around the sea and I just did a poor job of communicating that. We all try to recreate what nature provides us, whatever it is we are trying to recreate. I guess my badly stated point was, we can never really recreate what nature has created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUsnakebyte August 18, 2009 Share August 18, 2009 We all try to recreate what nature provides us, whatever it is we are trying to recreate. I guess my badly stated point was, we can never really recreate what nature has created. Every time I find myself under pressure sucking compressed air from a tank, I am reminded of this very point. You are exactly correct. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman August 19, 2009 Share August 19, 2009 Where the heck are you located that you can go out and collect water, puffers, butterflies, pipefish and boxfish, etc...? Cheers Mike About .07 miles from paradise, it appears!! bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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