Whitespot

[Caffers0]

Hi guys

Was hoping for some help with dealing with marine whitespot. I've just bought an existing 450ltr reef setup from a colleague but the regal and powder blue tangs, have both got whitespot within 24 hrs of my setting up the system. I have tried treating with a product called ESHA oodinex thrice now but to no avail. I have been told to give the infected two a feshwater bath or alternatively just to leave it and the UV steriliser will sort it out but I have been keeping freshwater fish (mainly discus and central americans) for over 30 years and these suggestions don't sound plausible. Is it possible to raise the water temp to above 30c as with a freshwater setup, I'm afraid of the impact this might have on both corals (all soft) and fish or will I need to remove all the fish, treat them separately (my quarantine tank would struggle) with a copper based treatment and leave the tank fallow for 3 months? Can anyone cast a bit of light on this, I have dealt with some very heavy whitespot infections on wild caught catfish in past years but nothing as frustrating as this.

Thanks

Caffers0

[Origami]

Most of us know this disease as ick (or ich). Tangs, and especially the kinds you've listed, are susceptible to suffering from it when they are stressed. Undoubtedly, their recent relocation contributed to their stress and allowed for this outbreak. Much has been written about ick. Treatment options include copper, formalin, a combination of the two, hyposalinity, water changes, and (if you have time) UV.

 

Copper is very effective, but can be stressful on a fish if done for a long time and is more stressful for some species. Hyposalinity has been shown to be effective in many cases. Neither treatment is reef-safe and has to be performed in a separate QT system. Elevating temperature helps to accerate the ick lifecycle so you can get through the problem more quickly.

 

Here's a good article on treatment options: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

 

This reefer's recent experimental success may be of interest to you. It combines use of Kick Ick and Malachite Green to treat ick in the display tank. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=1672158

 

This may be a more risky approach, but is worth researching (if for nothing more than to gain some knowledge). It uses a prescription drug, chloroquinne phosphate, usually indicated to treat malaria (really): http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=1675792

[zygote2k]

Here's an easy solution:

 

If the fish are otherwise healthy, just leave them be. The ick will run its' course and the fish will build some immunity against it. Don't add any medication of any sort to your display tank if you have any sort of invertebrates or corals. It's just fine to leave the infected fish in the tank. If you try to remove them, it will often times cause more harm than good. Lowering the salinity is not proven to eliminate ick- it's a common misbelief. Many LFS have lowered salinity in their fish systems because it saves money on salt.

Time heals all wounds.

[Lunker]

I certainly would indorse the sites provided to you by Tom. I started my tank setup last July and had ich by mid-November on my Tangs. I was convinced after reading a number of articles that the only way that I could be sure to rid the ich from the display tank without adding any chemicals was first to remove all fish and put them into a hyposalinity QT. I only left the Inverts in the display tank. Again, no fish in the DT for six weeks. As there will not be any fish in the DT to host the Ich perisite they will and did perish.

 

I slowly increased the salinity in the QT back to 1.026 prior to re-introducing the fish.

 

I'm glad to say that I haven't had any more problem with Ich.

 

Good Luck to you.

[Origami]

Few LFS' that I know of lower their salinity to the level required to treat ick. It's important in hyposalinity treatment that it be lowered to around 1.010.

 

You can choose to treat or not. Your display is already infected, but that's not unusual as many tanks have the organism in the water column already. Your fish may recover on their own, or it could get worse. Ick can kill. It doesn't always but there's a long, documented history of damage it's done and heartache that it's caused. A late response could be too late. You are the only one that can make that choice. Treatment does not always result in success, though.

 

I had a case of ick revealed in my QT days after I purchased some cheap fish at a local retailer who had a HUMONGOUS, UNBELIEVABLE SALE on them. It showed up first on an angel and spread to another fish before I acted to treat with formalin. Unfortunately, I lost three of the five fish that I'd purchased to the disease before it was all done. The two that survived, though, were both tangs. Because of the outbreak, I extended my quarantine to two months and performed more frequent water changes for those two.

 

Immunity to ich is a myth, or at the very least a misunderstanding of what immunity is versus resistance. There's no evidence that fish develop an immunity to it, but their state of health can be such that they can be resistant to it. Some species seem more resistant than others. I don't know if any research has been done to determine why this is the case, but the clinical evidence from the accumulated experience of hobbyists seems to indicate that this is the case.

[zygote2k]

I meant to say that the fish will develop a resistance to future outbreaks of ich instead of saying 'immunity'. Ich is always present in the tank- and fish will develop it sometimes after being stressed. Even if you set up a QT system and run the fish through a hyposalinity regimen, it still can get ich when you add it to the DT. For this reason alone, I personally think that QT'ing fish in a seperate system is a waste of time and money. I can almost guarantee that unless you have a constant running QT system that the water quality in it is far poorer than your DT.

 

If you buy your fish from the LFS that actually QT's their fish before making them available to sell, this step can be eliminated at home.

As far as what Tom says, he is probably one of the smartest people to be on this forum and what he says is gospel.

[zygote2k]

If you really want to do a hyposalinity regimen, here's one:

 

Treatment Process

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I've not posted the general instructions for a hyposalinity treatment before now. Mostly it isn't that difficult to perform. However, there are some pitfalls and for some aquarists (especially those that think it will be easy) it isn't easy. Hyposalinity is the nicest (to the fish) and easiest (on the fish) way to treat marine fish of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans).

 

The hyposalinity treatment only treats a very limited number of ciliated parasites. The most notable in this group is Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). The home aquarist will not be using hyposalinity to treat any other disease or condition. Is this clear? I'll write it again -- hyposalinity cures ONLY Marine Ich.

 

A hyposalinity treatment will kill: Pods, snails, crabs, invertebrates, corals, live rock, most marine algae, and Marine Ich. This is why it is best performed in a separate, bare bottom, hospital tank. It has been performed successfully in fish only aquariums where there is no live rock and the substrate doesn't have worms and pods in it. But the best treatment tank is a bare bottom hospital tank, set up like a quarantine tank.

 

A hyposalinity treatment will not kill other parasites or conditions. A hyposalinity treatment does not kill Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum), bacterial infections, injuries, intestinal parasites, external parasites, and a few hundred other diseases. Let's get to it!

 

 

GENERAL

 

Setup/System

Use a suitably clean tank or a setup/establish quarantine tank. The size should 'fit' the fish to be treated. About 5 gallons per inch of fish works out okay for this treatment, except for large adult Angelfishes, Tangs, and Rabbitfishes. For them, it would be better to use the ratio of 9 gallons per inch.

 

Lighting on the treatment tank should be dimmed so that you can see the fish, but not bright. Provide the fish with some hiding place(s) (e.g. PVC pipe, fake rock, etc.). Do not put substrate, live sand, live rock or any other kind of living thing in the treatment tank. A simple bare tank with a corner sponge filter is more than adequate. Use one corner filter for every 15 gallons of tank water.

 

Don't add/use power heads or strong circulating pumps. Set the tank up in a quiet area of the home, where there is minimal human traffic. Use heater or chiller and thermometer to hold temperature steady and constant. A UV may be used if you have one suitable for that size tank. Just don't overcook the water! Do not attach a skimmer -- they don't usually work well with this kind of water. Besides, you should be making water changes to control organics/dissolved proteins.

 

DO NOT USE AN ELEVATED TEMPERATURE during treatment. DO NOT ADD ANY OTHER MEDICATIONS TO HYPOSALINE SALTWATER without knowing it is approved by the medicine manufacturer for use specifically during a hyposalinity treatment. When fish are in a hyposaline liquid, the effects of medicines and medications changes. Some meds become lethal, like copper. NEVER USE COPPER when doing the hyposalinity treatment.

 

The only different equipment needed besides the above is a refractometer. They are less than $50 and well worth the investment. A hydrometer is just not accurate enough for controlling the salt content in the treatment tank. Control will be essential to a successful treatment.

 

First Water and Water Changes

Water is taken from the display tank system or water is made up to match the water the fish is coming from. Match specific gravity, temperature and especially pH to very close to the water the fish is currently in, if water is being prepared from salt. The pH should be within 0.05 pH units -- that's how close I mean by 'close.'

 

pH Control

pH is hard to control in a hyposaline solution because at this dilution, the buffer ability of the diluted saltwater is not good. Be prepared for this.

 

Make pH adjustments with pure baking soda (e.g., Arm & Hammer) you find in the grocery store, or better yet is sodium carbonate. Sodium carbonate can be made in the home oven. Take a pound of pure baking soda and spread it out evenly on a large cookie sheet. Put into a preheated oven to 350F. Bake it for 30 minutes. Take the sheet out of the oven, let cool to warm and put into an air-tight, clean container for use. Now the baking soda has been turned into sodium carbonate, a more potent pH + additive.

 

DO NOT try to control the pH with pH buffer or other off the shelf additives. Use only the two mentioned above or a specific strong pH+ control.

 

Do not add the baking soda or sodium carbonate directly to the hospital/quarantine tank. Always thoroughly dissolve some powder in RO/DI or distilled water then drip/add that in slowly to move the pH up.

 

If you mess up and the pH has lowered considerably (more than 0.2 pH units) then raise the pH VERY SLOWLY -- no more than 0.10 pH units per day. A large pH change can seriously harm a fish, especially a sick one.

 

 

PROCESS

 

Lowering Salinity

Over a period of about 36-48 hours (use 48 for most Tangs, Butterflyfishes, Lionfishes, Puffers, and Dwarf Angelfishes) lower the specific through water removal and RO/DI or distilled water additions. Watch pH and temperature of the added water -- match that of the water being replaced. Use only a refractometer to measure the specific gravity. Lower the specific gravity to a reading of 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units. Hold it there throughout the treatment.

 

Maintenance

This is why I mentioned above this treatment is not easy on the aquarist.

If the treatment tank has an active biological filter, don't assume it's working. When salinity is lowered the bacteria sometimes enter into a state of suspension and hold off in their metabolism of ammonia and nitrites. Controlling water quality and especially pH will be the challenge. Check for ammonia, nitrites, and pH twice each day at the start, until readings are zero for ammonia and nitrites. Don't count on the pH to remain steady. It must be checked no less than twice a day and if needed, adjusted.

 

Make water changes to control organics, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, etc. If all is steady, still make water changes of 35% or more every other day. After the first water use, the only water to use to make changes is made up water from salt. DO NOT USE DISPLAY TANK WATER to make water changes in a treatment tank, no matter what disease is being treated.

 

Nutrition

The fish must be offered and gotten to eat throughout the process. The best foods must be given. Choose the right foods and feed frequently as recommended here: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...nutrition.html

 

I would also seriously recommend the fish foods be fortified/supplemented with immune boosters during this time of disease treatment.

 

Salinity Control

If the tank water salinity is allowed to go up, the Marine Ich parasite will not be killed or stressed into submission. If the tank water salinity goes below the target salinity, the fish are in danger. HOLD THE SPECIFIC GRAVITY very closely within 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units.

 

Treatment Time

The fish is kept in hyposalinity 4 weeks after the last spot is seen. After the last spot disappears, the hyposalinity continues for another 4 weeks. If during that 4 weeks, if any spot is seen, the time/clock starts over. There must be a minimum of 4 solid weeks with no spot EVER seen.

 

Raising Salinity

Now raise the specific gravity slowly. The raising of the specific gravity is very stressful on fish and this part must be done slowly. It should take 6 to 7 days to return the water to its normal salinity. Raise the specific gravity by about 0.003 sp. gr. units or less, per day. Less is okay. No need to be ultra conservative and go beyond 8 days to do this. BUT in no way try to shorten the time to less than 6 days.

 

When the treatment time is over, there is no need to add back distilled water to compensate for water evaporated. Let that be part of the raising of the salinity. When you go to raise the salinity, add small quantities of high specific gravity mixed and aged salt water.

 

Continue to monitor all water parameters and chemistries.

 

 

PROOF

 

Verification

After the salinity is returned to normal, hold the fish in the treatment tank for another 4 weeks to verify it is cured. Look for spots every day, very closely. Observe the fish behavior, breathing rate, flashing (scratching) and look for any other Marine Ich symptoms. At the end of this time, the fish is cured/free of Marine Ich IF no other symptoms are seen/observed.

[lanman]

Personal opinion only - and I am NOT an experienced reefer. Though this is based on my limited experience.

 

All I did when a Kole Tang brought ich to my tank was to mix Selcon and Garlic extract with my food, and make sure that the sick Yellow Tang and Purple Tang got plenty to eat. Of about 10-12 fish in the tank, all I lost were the Kole Tang, and one little wrasse. And I never saw the wrasse with ich, so maybe he jumped and the cat ate him. A year later now, and no further sign of ich.

 

bob

[Origami]

And I never saw the wrasse with ich, so maybe he jumped and the cat ate him....

 

Except for your DSB experiment with the cat litter pail, has anything good come of that cat? Wild Kingdom in Bob's house.

 

The Lanman food chain:

 

Cat (alpha predator)

^

^

Bob's fish

^

^

Bob's $$$

Edited July 23, 2009 by Origami2547

[lanman]

Except for your DSB experiment with the cat litter pail, has anything good come of that cat? Wild Kingdom in Bob's house.

 

The Lanman food chain:

 

Cat (alpha predator)

^

^

Bob's fish

^

^

Bob's $$$

 

Ahh... the experiments you missed - like the Deli Delight cat food container $50 cone skimmer. Okay - so the 'cone' is a big drinking glass from Wal-mart, with the bottom cut off. Close! But no skimmate.

 

bob

[Jan]

Can anyone cast a bit of light on this, I have dealt with some very heavy whitespot infections on wild caught catfish in past years but nothing as frustrating as this.

 

There are several treatment options to choose from in these two articles. Good luck!

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

[paul b]

There are two ways to run a tank. Both work. One way is to quarantine everything including rocks, and inverts and the other way is to keep the animals in such a state of health they they are seldom, if ever bothered by ich.

Both methods work and both require some work. In a new set up like yours I would go for quarantining. That is too late for you so I would go with the other method (which is also my method).

 

I have been keeping fish since the fiftees and I started my still running reef in 1971. (I also started diving in the seventees and have almost 300 hours underwater). At first it was an ich magnet, that was before we invented captive reefs and it was a fish only using dead coral as decorations. We also knew nothing about fish nutrition and there was no specific foods available for salt water fish.

 

In those days all fish had ich and if it were not for copper, there would be no salt water fish hobby. Your LFS and his wholesaler use copper. Fish under stress are extreamly suseptable to ich. A fish will be under stress if it is in a new tank especially with ASW. A fish will also be under stres if it is a schooling fish such as a tang. (these types of fish are always in a school) A fish is stressed if it is a deep water fish like a Royal Gramma, or a fish like a Moorish Idol which needs spongs as it's main diet or a sand sifting gobi in a tank that is too clean. In other words, fish in a tank are usually under stress.

 

You can do much to severly reduce stress on fish. I have found that fish in breeding condition do not get ich.

I can say that because I use NSW and also collect seaweeds, mud, bacteria and animals from the sea and put them directly in my reef. I have always done this and I have not seen a case of ich in about 30 years. It is definately in my tank because if a fish is near death from old age, jumping out or some other accident, I will see ich develop just before the fish dies. I can even put ich infected fish in my tank (don't do this) and it will either die or be cured but the other fish will not develop it.

I do this all the time (but don't)

 

Fish in a tank are rarely in breeding condition and I found one of the causes. In the sea fish eat a diet of "whole" fish.

They do not eat squid, clams, mysis, angel formula, flakes etc, they eat whole fish. Usually baby fish. If you do any diving you will notice that the sea floor around the base of corals is literally teeming with fry. This is a food that they eat every day and they need it. A fish is almost a quarter liver. In that liver is oil. We eat it as Cod Liver Oil. But we, as humans can only use a tiny amount, fish on the other hand get get a large portion of their nutrition in the form of oil.

If we can get this oil into fish, they will be in much better health. There are a few ways to do this.

You can feed tiny fish. Not easily available. You can feed salt water fish eggs (as I do) Usually salmon eggs but there are also much smaller eggs available. These are loaded with oil and everything else a fish needs but they are rich so I also feed other things. Live blackworms are also loaded with oil. If I run out of all of the above I soak flakes in Cod Liver Oil.

This puts an oil slick on your water but it works.

If your fish are not breeding or making breeding attempts because they are alone, they are not as healthy as you believe them to be. Fish should spawn every couple of months and most fish live over 15 years. (not small gobies or seahorses)

Many of my fish are spawning including pipefish, bangai cardinals and gobies. Even my hermit crabs are spawning.

If your fish are in breeding condition they will rarely get ich and if they get a few spots, it will probably disappear.

You need to feed these foods a few times a week, not just once.

[davelin315]

I think to clarify, think of the many definitions of QT that there are. My own version of QT is simply to acclimate the fish to my system and observe the fish so that it can be yanked in case treatment is needed. Others use QT to treat disease. My own personal opinion is that my first fish was not QTd for my system, meaning it did not go through a regimen of medication and hyposalinity, so whatever is in my tank is in my tank already. I do try and be very selective of the fish I purchase and add, and when I add my fish I do it in a separate dark sump area first so that they can get acclimated to the water and get used to eating what I offer before I add them to my tank. That said, one medication that I used with success is kick ich. That said, many others have had zero success with it, so it's hard to say whether it's useful or not. Ideally, the best solution is to feed a great diet and let the fish take care of the disease themselves. Anything you can do to alleviate the symptoms will only help, but a healthy fish can survive bouts with some of the less serious diseases while a malnourished one cannot.

 

By the way, welcome to the boards, I think you're the first person posting from Ireland on them!

[Origami]

By the way, welcome to the boards, I think you're the first person posting from Ireland on them!

 

Hey, I missed that. I think a tank tour is called for.