FishWife January 9, 2009 Share January 9, 2009 Do any of us run bare-bottomed tanks? We've been battling cyano lately, but even that aside, sand always looks great at the start and GRUNGY after six months. Is it really worth it, or does sand do more harm in our tanks than help? Put another way: would BB + RDSB be a better solution for most tanks (except for wrasses and gobies that sleep in/make homes in the sand, of course) for the overall health of the system, or can someone make a case for sand IN the tank (that is not about aesthetics)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak January 9, 2009 Share January 9, 2009 If your sand looks grungy something is wrong with your flow. My tank with black/grey sand (detritus shows up real easily on black/grey) its been up for over a year and no settling and I don't have that much flow in the tank its just the way I have it aimed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k January 9, 2009 Share January 9, 2009 I used to preach the BB, but realized that sand is needed for the detritivores, planktonic life, and micro fauna that flourish in our tanks. We're trying to duplicate nature, so if you do your best to replicate your own tiny section of the ocean, sand should be in it. Sand doesn't attract cyano and nuisance algaes- it's just the easiest place for them to grow because of low flow or abundant nutrients. Sand sifting critters are a must in order to maintain a healthy sand bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phisigs79 January 9, 2009 Share January 9, 2009 I have been running barebottom for a year and this is what i think. BB pros: Easy to control nitrates etc because you can siphon out the stuff that settles on the bottom More flow (alot more) More room BB cons: After awhile glass gets covered with coraline and IMO doesnt look very nice If you dont keep up with the siphoning you have crud on the bottom of the tank. I wish i could put in starboard and epoxy some sand to it for a natural look but I am pretty sure it would encrust over time with coraline. So i like it for some reason but i do like the look of real sand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishWife January 9, 2009 Author Share January 9, 2009 If your sand looks grungy something is wrong with your flow. My tank with black/grey sand (detritus shows up real easily on black/grey) its been up for over a year and no settling and I don't have that much flow in the tank its just the way I have it aimed. Well: grungy is defined as speckled with organic stuff. I've had LOTS of Nassarius snails in all three systems and same results. Flow in my 180 was about as good as it got, and still had grungies over time. Not sure we can solve the sand grungies with better flow, at least not in my systems. We currently vaccuum our sand (in our RSM) every three or four days... Hmmm. SO, let's talk about CUCs for sand (since it's my thread and I can hijack it! ). I have been recently reading in various places that some say "do NOT put hermit crabs in your system. Snails and (for larger systems) cucumbers can do the whole CUC's work. Agree? Disagree? What are the best overall critters for keeping sand as clean as we can? (Oh, and you can post on the original content of the thread, too, if you want! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G January 9, 2009 Share January 9, 2009 There are major debate threads on reefcentral. BB is all the rage for SPS dominated tanks that require high flow. Anyway, my take on the whole debate is that you want BB if you want your tank to be primary a staghorn forest and otherwise if you want a natural reef environment with cleanup crew, fish, etc. then a sandbed of some kind is a must. I have a DSB and am moving into more SPS and upgraded my flow. I just installed a new, more powerful powerhead and am experiencing major dislocations of the sections of the sandbed. I hope I don't get a tank crash from released stuff that was trapped down there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocko918 January 9, 2009 Share January 9, 2009 i don't put hermits in my system, i have snails and 1 cuke. the cuke does a nice job stiring / filtering the sand/cc I also have a bunch of Nassarius snails. The whole BB vs sand/cc is a personal decision . They both have pros and cons. "We currently vaccuum our sand (in our RSM) every three or four days... " you should not have to do that non would i recommend doing that. You are releasing too much stuff into your system when you do that. What type of skimmer do you have on the system and what is the fish bioload? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme_tooth_decay January 9, 2009 Share January 9, 2009 I would think not having hermits is a disadvantage in that they are the ones who clean up potential corpses before they rot and foul the tank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishWife January 9, 2009 Author Share January 9, 2009 (edited) We are CURRENTLY vacuuming the sand bed this often because we are trying to beat a cyano outbreak from moving (disturbed sand be) coupled with running lights too long once we moved and had the tank in a different location. Once the cyano is under control (and it is getting there) we'll discontinue. It's a 34g tank and we have a Tunze skimmer, and two fish, and feed sparingly. What about shrimps? What part do they play in CUCs? Edited January 9, 2009 by FishWife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanCallan January 9, 2009 Share January 9, 2009 Conchs and sand sifting stars may help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoothtriqueter January 9, 2009 Share January 9, 2009 I have nas, turbo, ninja star, asternia, orange, nerite, and stomatella (snails) blue leg, scarlet hermits a sally light foot, arrow, and 3 emerald crabs and I have a skunk cleaner, fire, and a peppermint shrimp all in my 65. The sally lightfoot eats more than anything in the tank, he alone is a great CUC. But I still have cyano growing on my SB and some of the rock. I have been repeatedly switching out my phosguard and vacuuming my cc as well and still it grows, NOTHING eats of cleans it up just keep fighting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveoutlaw January 9, 2009 Share January 9, 2009 Ok, as you all know I've had many different sized tanks. Everyone of them has had a sandbed because I like the look of it. I have not had problems with it getting grungy looking because I keep a TON of sand sifters in the tank. I have nassarius snails, conchs, a sand sifting starfish......all of these have kept the sand churned to the point of not letting it get grungy. Do you have enough sand stirrers? I have a 34g Solana and have 20 nassarius snails and a sand sifting starfish in it currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishWife January 10, 2009 Author Share January 10, 2009 Ok, as you all know I've had many different sized tanks. Everyone of them has had a sandbed because I like the look of it. I have not had problems with it getting grungy looking because I keep a TON of sand sifters in the tank. I have nassarius snails, conchs, a sand sifting starfish......all of these have kept the sand churned to the point of not letting it get grungy. Do you have enough sand stirrers? I have a 34g Solana and have 20 nassarius snails and a sand sifting starfish in it currently. Well... we HAD about 12 snails when we shifted from the big tank to the 34. When we moved the 34 to the new house, we lost all but one (even tho we didn't disturb the sand bed except for its loss of temp overnight). Personally, *I* think that the crabs ate them, because I'm a REALLY sparse feeder. I have two fish and feed a pinch of small pellets per day, and frozen mysis to my sun corals every two or three days. We probably have five hermits, one nassarius, and three or four turbos in there right now. What would y'all suggest we load into a 34 at this point to help with sand/detritus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE January 10, 2009 Share January 10, 2009 I would think not having hermits is a disadvantage in that they are the ones who clean up potential corpses before they rot and foul the tank... When I set up my final set up, I plan on not having a single hermit. They eat my snails, and TBH, snails are one of my favorite creatures in my tank, kind of wierd, but I just love to watch them. Also, I had a bi-color angel die recently, I only have 12 nassarius and 5 hermits in my tank as of now because I don't have much LR, it's a BB (unfortuneatly), and it's only a temporary tank. Anyways, when I found the dead angel, there were 11 nassarius snails on it, and 1 hermit, the rest were just walking around the tank, ignoring it. IMO, if you get the right variety of snails and make sure to do research on them- many people don't know it, but many of the commonly kept snails are not found in tropical environments in the wild and don't do well in captivity- you will have an awesome CUC that IS NOT eating each other, JMO. I have nas, turbo, ninja star, asternia, orange, nerite, and stomatella (snails) blue leg, scarlet hermits a sally light foot, arrow, and 3 emerald crabs and I have a skunk cleaner, fire, and a peppermint shrimp all in my 65. The sally lightfoot eats more than anything in the tank, he alone is a great CUC. But I still have cyano growing on my SB and some of the rock. I have been repeatedly switching out my phosguard and vacuuming my cc as well and still it grows, NOTHING eats of cleans it up just keep fighting! Try a reasonably sized sea hare. Just one. It should devour it all within a month or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak January 10, 2009 Share January 10, 2009 I would not pass up on hermit they'll do less bulldozin of corals than turbos and the like will. Go for a mix, diffrent things eat diffrent stuff, I love my sand sifting star. My secret for a detritus free bottom in a 50 gallon tank 18x20 is I have a large seio prop power head like a maxi mod, tunze, koralia etc. and I have it blasting straight down, but I have it hitting a piece of shelf rock and it makes a nice spread of the current and leads to sweeping the detritus in an upward current where my filtration (skimmer, cannister) can remove it. I also have two nanos abou 3.5" off my sand bed blowing across my tank/sand bed not up or down. This has worked very well for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoothtriqueter January 10, 2009 Share January 10, 2009 Try a reasonably sized sea hare. Just one. It should devour it all within a month or two. really? to take down cyano? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rascal January 10, 2009 Share January 10, 2009 I'm a sand guy, but like Rocko said it is a personal preference. You can certainly have successful systems either way. I have a 4-5" DSB in my display, partially hidden by 3" of trim. I also have a 55 Gallon DSB/Fuge with about a 10" DSB. The organic grungy stuff is part of it. In my system so is coraline growth on the sand, so it doesn't look white and clean, but that's fine with me. Regardless of which way you go, if you have detritus building up you need to change something IMO. In my tank I have the following for flow (conservative estimates): return - 1000; 2 x mj900 mods - 1000 each; 2 x Tunze 2055 - 1000 each; Dart on CL - 3000. So about 8000 gph in a 150G tank w/ a DSB. It's all about flow dispersion and where you aim it. Trust me, when I dial in my Alk, keep up with water changes, and don't do anything stupid (like OD with Kalk ), SPS do just fine. Keeping phosphates low enough for good sps growth requires some intervention, but I have never had detectable nitrates since I added a DSB. IME the best thing for keeping a sand bed looking clean is a sea cucumber, but all that is necessary to have a healthy and functioning DSB is to seed it well and leave it alone. I like live rock from many different sources and periodic additions of rock and sand to the system - diversity, diversity, diversity. Make sure you don't have any sand bed predators. Pods, worms, bacteria, stuff you can see and stuff you can't --- that's what makes a sand bed work. Good flow and a good skimmer will keep it from getting overwhelmed. On hermits -- I pulled all of them from my main tank a couple of years ago prior to an interceptor treatment and have never looked back. I prefer lots and lots and lots of small snails - various species of nerite are great, plus the omnipresent stomatella, and a good number of ceriths and the smaller type of nassarius. A serpeant star or two plus the nassarius will quickly dispatch any corpses without the need for hermit assistance, and a few brittle stars will take up residence in those spots where detritus would develop and help you deal with that. The above is what has worked for me, but others have done pretty much exactly the opposite (BB w/ hermits) and had great success. Nothing against cats . . . but as they saying goes there is more than one way . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman January 10, 2009 Share January 10, 2009 I have been running barebottom for a year and this is what i think. BB pros: Easy to control nitrates etc because you can siphon out the stuff that settles on the bottom More flow (alot more) More room BB cons: After awhile glass gets covered with coraline and IMO doesnt look very nice If you dont keep up with the siphoning you have crud on the bottom of the tank. I wish i could put in starboard and epoxy some sand to it for a natural look but I am pretty sure it would encrust over time with coraline. So i like it for some reason but i do like the look of real sand More BB cons: You can't own an African Splendid Leopard Wrasse. They sleep in the sand! You can't own a yellow-headed sleeper goby. Well, maybe you could - but he would be unhappy. Okay - maybe that's a pro. No sand to squirt off corals! bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE January 10, 2009 Share January 10, 2009 really? to take down cyano? I can tell you that I have no experience with them, but am currently battling cyano and plan on getting one based on others experience. From what I've read of others experience, they'll first go after the hair algae and devour that, and then go after the cyano and any other algae they can get there mouth on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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